The Giants are hosting a Star Wars themed game today:
Awesome.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
But he hit the ball outside of the park 40 whole times. And he can throw fast
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
But he hit the ball outside of the park 40 whole times. And he can throw fast[/quote]
40 bombs and only 92 ribbies? How many of his home runs are solo shots?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
The rate at which Bautista earns RBI while hitting with RISP is almost the same as Granderson and A-Gon. There’s not even a 2% difference.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
Granderson hits .243 w/ RISP and Bautista hits .242.
How is it Bautista is earning RBI at almost the same rate as A-Gon while hitting w/ RISP when his average is 100 points lower than A-Gon in those situations?
Are we doomed to talk about this MVP race for the rest of the season? I’m more interested in the upcoming playoffs. Does anybody think any of the teams in first will faulter and fall back into second?
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
Are we doomed to talk about this MVP race for the rest of the season? I’m more interested in the upcoming playoffs. Does anybody think any of the teams in first will faulter and fall back into second?[/quote]
Hopefully Arizona…
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
Are we doomed to talk about this MVP race for the rest of the season? I’m more interested in the upcoming playoffs. Does anybody think any of the teams in first will faulter and fall back into second?[/quote]
No. I think the playoff teams are all sitting in first place right now. The Giants have completely fallen apart, the Cardinals are buried and the Phillies are too good for the Braves to catch this late in the season.
In the AL, the Angels’ decision to send Haren and Weaver out on three days’ rest has totally backfired and I don’t expect either of them to pitch as well as they need to in order to get them back on top of Texas. The Indians don’t have the depth or the experience to catch Detroit. I suppose the Red Sox could pass the Yankees, but I don’t think it’ll happen. For some reason, the Red Sox just don’t impress me that much. They don’t have enough pitching. The Yankees don’t have enough to win it all, in my opinion, but they have the better offense now that A-Rod is healthy again and Jeter is playing like it’s 1998.
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
Are we doomed to talk about this MVP race for the rest of the season? I’m more interested in the upcoming playoffs. Does anybody think any of the teams in first will faulter and fall back into second?[/quote]
Hopefully Arizona…[/quote]
The Giants pitching staff will have to be absolutely perfect for that to happen.
I mean an era well under 2.
I’m not completely clear on how the playoffs are set up (I know the division winners and the wildcard, but who matches up against who?) Regardless, I’d say I’m a lot more interested in watching the NL side of things than the AL. Al is gonna be Detroit, Boston, NY, and Texas, right? NL is Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philly, and Arizona? Yeah, personally, I’m a lot more excited about the teams coming from the NL this year.
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
Are we doomed to talk about this MVP race for the rest of the season? I’m more interested in the upcoming playoffs. Does anybody think any of the teams in first will faulter and fall back into second?[/quote]
Don’t worry, the wildcard was invented to create some drama in these situations!
… oh, damn. At least Yanks/Sox is close?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
Are we doomed to talk about this MVP race for the rest of the season? I’m more interested in the upcoming playoffs. Does anybody think any of the teams in first will faulter and fall back into second?[/quote]
Hopefully Arizona…[/quote]
The Giants pitching staff will have to be absolutely perfect for that to happen.
I mean an era well under 2.[/quote]
Honestly, I’d give my Giants like a 3% chance of making the playoffs. I’m just going to have to watch playoff highlights from last year.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]strungoutboy21 wrote:
Are we doomed to talk about this MVP race for the rest of the season? I’m more interested in the upcoming playoffs. Does anybody think any of the teams in first will faulter and fall back into second?[/quote]
Hopefully Arizona…[/quote]
The Giants pitching staff will have to be absolutely perfect for that to happen.
I mean an era well under 2.[/quote]
Here’s how unlikely it is: the Giants will have to go 18-4 while the D’Backs play .500 ball just to finish TIED for first on the last day of the year. Ain’t happenin’. I hate to say it, but the Giants are about as relevant as the Blue Jays are right now and their reign looks like it’ll be officially over in about two more weeks.
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
I’m not completely clear on how the playoffs are set up (I know the division winners and the wildcard, but who matches up against who?) Regardless, I’d say I’m a lot more interested in watching the NL side of things than the AL. Al is gonna be Detroit, Boston, NY, and Texas, right? NL is Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philly, and Arizona? Yeah, personally, I’m a lot more excited about the teams coming from the NL this year.[/quote]
The way it happens is the team with with the best record plays the Division winner with the next best record, IF the wildcard comes from the same division as the top team. That’s what will happen this year. Otherwise, it’s the top team against the wildcard and the other two division winners against each other.
The first round is best of 5 with each team getting two at home and one more at the better team’s (record-wise) field. The next two rounds are best of 7 with a 2-3-2 format. NL gets the homefield advantage this year because they won the All-Star Game.
If the season ended today, the playoffs would look like this: Yankees vs either the Rangers or the Tigers (I think they have the same record right now) and the Red Sox vs. whichever of those 2 teams has the better record.
In the NL, the Phillies would play Arizona and the Brewers would host the Braves.
Want to say I hate watching Papelbon pitch. The guy took 10 min to strikeout a batter on 3 pitches. Sometimes these delays between pitches go too far.
[quote]eeu743 wrote:
I’m not completely clear on how the playoffs are set up (I know the division winners and the wildcard, but who matches up against who?) Regardless, I’d say I’m a lot more interested in watching the NL side of things than the AL. Al is gonna be Detroit, Boston, NY, and Texas, right? NL is Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philly, and Arizona? Yeah, personally, I’m a lot more excited about the teams coming from the NL this year.[/quote]
I think if the playoffs started today, The NL playoffs would be more exciting to watch. I know the Phils are the favorite, but I can see any of the other teams making it through. In the AL the Yankees might have to play the Tigers in the first round and I think the Yankees would destroy them. Verlander can’t pitch every game.
Yeah the Phillies are clearly the favorites, but the Braves and Brewers aren’t too shabby. Neither is Arizona, but I just don’t think they’ve got much of a chance of going deep.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
All this arguing over what stat means more to the MVP vote and all that is a bunch of bullshit. OBP is important to top of the order hitters. Avg w/ RISP, which removes the amount of runners actually on base in front of a hitter from the equation, is the most important hitting statistic for a middle of the lineup hitter like Adrian Gonzalez or Jose Bautista.
The most important thing Bautista could do for his team is not get on base and leave it up to others to drive him in. He isn’t paid for that. He’s paid to hit home runs and drive runs in. And at this he’s an utter failure, batting .240 with RISP as opposed to .315 without them in scoring position. You guys can argue all you want about total runs scored or RBI’s but it doesn’t change the fact that if Bautista DID hit well with RISP he would compare much more favorably to Granderson or Gonzalez. He does NOT compare favorably because he hits about 100 points lower than Adrian Gonzalez does with RISP and THAT is why his RBI total is significantly lower.
Bautista is not the MVP for that simple fact. He does not drive in runs at the same pace that Gonzalez does because he doesn’t hit well in the clutch. Toronto’s #1 and #2 hitters get on base and/or advance runners into scoring position. For who? Bautista. He isn’t being paid to get on base, period. The Blue Jays don’t give a shit about his high OBP because it doesn’t help them win games. Bautista driving in runs helps them win games, period. He doesn’t do it that well, period.[/quote]
So he should swing at pitches in the dirt just to make sure he never walks? I hate that argument.
[/quote]
Not once did I make that argument.
My point is that Bautista doesn’t deserve any special recognition AT ALL for having a high OBP. Half the reason he gets on base so much is due to the fact he gets pitched around a lot. But since when does that make him valuable to his team? It would be one thing if he were hitting .300 with RISP, but he’s not. He’s hitting .240. So it’s ridiculous to sit here and say that IF he got pitched to more often he would drive in significantly more runs and it’s equally ridiculous to sit here and say IF he hit with more runners on base he would also drive in significantly more runs.
Would he have more RBI’s? Sure, but probably not that much more since he doesn’t hit well with runners on base. Should he start swinging at everything? Of course not. But maybe he should be much more aggressive at the plate in these situations. There’s a reason why he gets pitched around: the opposing team has a much better chance of winning by putting him on base rather than going right after him. THIS is why his OBP doesn’t mean shit and why he isn’t the MVP. All too often he comes to the plate with RISP and does not drive them in. It’s unfortunate that he gets pitched around, but the fact remains that even if he didn’t get pitched around it’s dubious to say he would be driving in runs at the pace that Adrian Gonzalez and his .345 avg w/ RISP does. The fact that Bautista does get pitched around with men on makes each at-bat in which he IS pitched to that much more important for his team’s chances of success. And in these KEY moments for his team’s chances of success, he shrinks up to the tune of a .240 avg. That is NOT how an MVP performs.[/quote]
For the life of me I can’t figure out how you can care about batting average and not OBP. You’ll use a stat that counts a HR the same as a single, but not a stat that counts a walk the same as a single? There is a much bigger difference between a HR and a single than between a single and a walk.
Put it another way: The definition of batting average is how often you get on base given that you didn’t walk or get hit by pitch. It’s basically OBP with 10-15% of your plate appearances removed from the denominator. This is a fact that is not arguable.