[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here.
[/quote]
Who brought up a utopian-type society? [/quote]
That’s what we all want, isn’t it? [/quote]
I just want freedom.[/quote]
Lol. I like you Nick, but come on…
The Uncle of the guy that runs North Korea was executed and erased from DPRK hisotry for speaking out against the state. We’re pretty free.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Ah man… you just don’t get it do you? No, America does not force you to stay there but EVERYWHERE you go - be it the UK, Europe, etc - is the same. They all force you to pay tax even if you disagree with it. That’s why it IS akin to theft. What I’m trying to say is if you withdraw your consent, then you should be able to stop paying tax, not that you have to leave the country! Actually, talking of America it is pretty bad, I work with some US guys in my job and they still have to file US tax returns as well as German ones, even though they don’t live in the bloody country! They have left! Talk about having a damn big hand in your pocket (and life!).
[/quote]
There are a number of places you can go and be free of theft. Go living on the Amazon. What’s stopping you.
The bottom line is, you enjoy the benefits of living in a free society, but you don’t want to pay for it.
Your American friends pay taxes for any number of reasons, all of which are on them.
I’m happy to pay my fair share. I am not willing to pay for yours.
[quote]
All I’m trying to say is that for those of us that disagree with it, and can’t stop paying it, it is theft. [/quote]
You can leave.
It utterly amazes me you think rape and slavery are the same as taxation.
Example?
The government is all over food production. I like the FDA checking my food…
Look how well it’s working in Somalia!
I never said I trust the government, however, I did say they are a necessary evil. I see no possible way a 100% free market works. There will always be a need for some oversight.
What happens if there is a dispute between two business? No gov means no laws, means no judges.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
Pushers, I hate to bring this up, but it seems you don’t get it. Look how far superior America is to the Soviet Union. Just look at that.[/quote]
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Hahahaha! Nice. They’ve definitely both got red in em!
[/quote]
Well, you might still be missing the point. Look at this picture of my house. Do you think Stalin would have let his citizens worship his kingdom like this? #freedom[/quote]
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Hahahaha! Nice. They’ve definitely both got red in em!
[/quote]
Well, you might still be missing the point. Look at this picture of my house. Do you think Stalin would have let his citizens worship his kingdom like this? #freedom[/quote]
You sure look aweful oppressed. [/quote]
*In the interest of full disclosure, I just googled “huge American flag on house” and posted the image that best fit what I was looking for, but if we’re going to compare nice things in order to determine freedom…check out this video from Singapore(I really just wanted to post this video because it’s cool as hell, and it seems to fit here as well as anywhere): - YouTube
I also like you, but is a hectagon round? Does 1,000�·1=0? The coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth is -128.6�°F, does that make -10 warm? [/quote]
Serious question, do you think that’s even close to a fair assessment?
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Hahahaha! Nice. They’ve definitely both got red in em!
[/quote]
Well, you might still be missing the point. Look at this picture of my house. Do you think Stalin would have let his citizens worship his kingdom like this? #freedom[/quote]
I googled “North Korean Home” lets compare. #Real Oppression.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Singapore? Don’t people get fined for spitting in Singapore? it might be somewhere else, but I think its Singapore.[/quote]
Spitting in public is illegal in many American cities, too. My point was, making a joke about how the owner of the beautiful home I posted is oppressed is kind of silly. Look how cool that guy’s place is in Singapore. Cool stuff does not a free man make.
Right wing? I’m not right wing! I’m just pro-freedom and anti-government force/coercion. Ring wing types tend to believe in having a big military, in the drug war, in religion, etc, etc - I don’t agree with any of those things.
[/quote]
Oh I am sorry I thought you were against America having infrastructure . I also am against a bloated miltary , the war on drugs and Religion mixed with our politics
I am for anything that we all need , Roads , Water , Electricity , Health Care , Justice and the like
Right wing? I’m not right wing! I’m just pro-freedom and anti-government force/coercion. Ring wing types tend to believe in having a big military, in the drug war, in religion, etc, etc - I don’t agree with any of those things.
[/quote]
Oh I am sorry I thought you were against America having infrastructure . I also am against a bloated miltary , the war on drugs and Religion mixed with our politics
I am for anything that we all need , Roads , Water , Electricity , Health Care , Justice and the like [/quote]
Where on earth did you get the idea that I’m against America (or anywhere else for that matter) having infrastructure? That’s crazy. I’m totally all for infrastructure. I am also for all the things we need. Of course. I’m just against “the government” providing them. I’d rather see them provided by the free market, that’s the only difference.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Ah man… you just don’t get it do you? No, America does not force you to stay there but EVERYWHERE you go - be it the UK, Europe, etc - is the same. They all force you to pay tax even if you disagree with it. That’s why it IS akin to theft. What I’m trying to say is if you withdraw your consent, then you should be able to stop paying tax, not that you have to leave the country! Actually, talking of America it is pretty bad, I work with some US guys in my job and they still have to file US tax returns as well as German ones, even though they don’t live in the bloody country! They have left! Talk about having a damn big hand in your pocket (and life!).
[/quote]
There are a number of places you can go and be free of theft. Go living on the Amazon. What’s stopping you.
The bottom line is, you enjoy the benefits of living in a free society, but you don’t want to pay for it.
Your American friends pay taxes for any number of reasons, all of which are on them.
I’m happy to pay my fair share. I am not willing to pay for yours.
[quote]
All I’m trying to say is that for those of us that disagree with it, and can’t stop paying it, it is theft. [/quote]
You can leave.
It utterly amazes me you think rape and slavery are the same as taxation.
Example?
The government is all over food production. I like the FDA checking my food…
Look how well it’s working in Somalia!
I never said I trust the government, however, I did say they are a necessary evil. I see no possible way a 100% free market works. There will always be a need for some oversight.
What happens if there is a dispute between two business? No gov means no laws, means no judges. [/quote]
Yes dude, I get it! You think the only way some one should get away from an immoral thing is to leave the country. So, coming back the slavery example again, you think people who were anti-slavery at that time should have left America. However, I just happen to disagree with you. I think if you see something immoral, you shouldn’t run away from it, you should speak out against it - which is what I’m trying to do.
Yes, rape and slavery are on the same moral level as taxation, because, taxation, like rape and slavery is the initiation of force. You are forced to pay. You cannot not pay. There is no choice. Just like a slave is forced to work or a women is forced to have sex. No choice and forced. See?
Yes, the FDA may well be checking your food but “the govt.” itself does not produce or distribute food. You aren’t mandated to have food insurance in order to buy your groceries.
You don’t need “govt.” for oversight. When two companies disagree they could use a separate third party arbitrator to judge. No, not a govt. but another company (set of companies competing in that service arena) offering their services as dispute resolution organisations.
Of course I want the benefits of living in a free society. But I don’t want to pay for others people’s “stuff” - their healthcare, their education, their pension, etc, etc, and I don’t want them to pay for mine! I want me to pay for what I use and them to pay for what they use. I don’t want it “socialised” - that is the only difference really (I think) between your view and mine ultimately.
I think all the benefits and services of a free society can and should be provided by businesses, not “the government”. I get it that you don’t see it that way, and that’s fine, we’ll just have to disagree over it because I can see we’ve been going back and forth over the same topic for post after post and neither of us is agreeing with the other. Anyway, I have enjoyed the discussion so thank you for that, even if we do disagree. I guess it would be a sad, boring world if we all thought in exactly the same way and liked all the same stuff.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Ah man… you just don’t get it do you? No, America does not force you to stay there but EVERYWHERE you go - be it the UK, Europe, etc - is the same. They all force you to pay tax even if you disagree with it. That’s why it IS akin to theft. What I’m trying to say is if you withdraw your consent, then you should be able to stop paying tax, not that you have to leave the country! Actually, talking of America it is pretty bad, I work with some US guys in my job and they still have to file US tax returns as well as German ones, even though they don’t live in the bloody country! They have left! Talk about having a damn big hand in your pocket (and life!).
[/quote]
There are a number of places you can go and be free of theft. Go living on the Amazon. What’s stopping you.
The bottom line is, you enjoy the benefits of living in a free society, but you don’t want to pay for it.
Your American friends pay taxes for any number of reasons, all of which are on them.
I’m happy to pay my fair share. I am not willing to pay for yours.
How do you ensure businesses and those with power/ money don’t completely bone the poor, powerless? It seems to be an inevitability you aren’t accounting for. There are people with rosy thoughts that people wont exploit one another, but they do given the opportunity if there is a reward. It seems to be human nature for some.
They’ve definitely both got red in em!
