I can just imagine every road being like the Jersey Turnpike, sounds awesome.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Most of us can’t afford jet packs. [/quote]
I skipped right over this line-what an effective argument from one who(I’m 99% sure) opposes welfare spending.[/quote]
Right, most of us have to buy cars you know to get to work, so we the middle & working class will have to pay toll to get to work while Bill get’s to fly his personal Jet pack to work.
I don’t oppose all welfare spending, not that that has anything to do with my statement at all. [/quote]
I think one thing everyone needs to realize is for society to try a different “model”, you cannot think about how things are done today. It takes a new way of thinking and doing things differently which would not work in how society functions today.[/quote]
I would like to at least hear some semblance of plan before we just “try” something to see if it works.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I can just imagine every road being like the Jersey Turnpike, sounds awesome. [/quote]
Outside of the autobahn, I don’t really know very many roads I truly enjoy driving on.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I can just imagine every road being like the Jersey Turnpike, sounds awesome. [/quote]
Outside of the autobahn, I don’t really know very many roads I truly enjoy driving on.[/quote]
Me either (not that I’ve been on the autobahn). I can imagine city commutes with tolls at every street light. It’s a logictis nightmare, you could possibly you easy pass, but you still need oversight.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
I have no way to offer specific details on how a non-socialized society would work. If paying the toll is too onerous for people, that will probably create a demand for new modes of transportation(or other roads), right? If few people are using the roads, that will probably force the owners of the road to lower their price to be more competitive, right?
-So, not a tax. The cost of transportation will be allowed to reach its market value.
OR: Communism and socialism have repeatedly proven themselves desirable and effective methods for determining the distribution and costs of goods.[/quote]
You have no idea how the specific would work, but you want to try it anyway?
Who/how is the military paied for?[/quote]
If I could give specifics, I wouldn’t support it. I can’t give specifics because I have no idea what the value of X is in a free society.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I can just imagine every road being like the Jersey Turnpike, sounds awesome. [/quote]
Outside of the autobahn, I don’t really know very many roads I truly enjoy driving on.[/quote]
Me either (not that I’ve been on the autobahn). I can imagine city commutes with tolls at every street light. It’s a logictis nightmare, you could possibly you easy pass, but you still need oversight. [/quote]
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here. We are all animals at heart, and given our selfish and/or distrustful natures (which are survival instincts) as well as exceedingly dwindling resources in which we need to survive such as land, water, shelter, and food, you will end up with some type of model we see in the world today.
You can’t build a house without a proper foundation.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I can just imagine every road being like the Jersey Turnpike, sounds awesome. [/quote]
Outside of the autobahn, I don’t really know very many roads I truly enjoy driving on.[/quote]
Me either (not that I’ve been on the autobahn). I can imagine city commutes with tolls at every street light. It’s a logictis nightmare, you could possibly you easy pass, but you still need oversight. [/quote]
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here. We are all animals at heart, and given our selfish and/or distrustful natures (which are survival instincts) as well as exceedingly dwindling resources in which we need to survive such as land, water, shelter, and food, you will end up with some type of model we see in the world today.
You can’t build a house without a proper foundation.[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here.
[/quote]
Who brought up a utopian-type society?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Look, I’m not going to address everything you said because I can see we aren’t going to see eye-to-eye on most, if any, of this stuff. However, all I’d say is yes, maybe your relatives did vote for the constitution and the 16th amendment to it, but that was their consent not yours or mine. Ask any contract lawyer if a contract agreed to and signed by one person is enforceable on their children and other descendants who didn’t take part in the original signing - I’d bet dollars to donuts the answer is “no”.
[/quote]
So, what at 18 you should have to sign a consent form consenting to the terms of the Constitution or be deported I guess. Fine, that works for me. 99.9999999% of Americans will sign it, but I’m sure we can find room in the bidget to make this happen.
Lawyers have tried to repeal the 16th. It has not happened and for good reason.
The state does not force you to stay in America. This is not North Korea, you are free to leave if you feel taxes are theft. You pay taxes as a member of American (or German) society because you benefit from that relationship.
Washington also pushed the Continetal Congress for a professional standing military. That’s not very free market.
Free market works great for things we don’t need, like MP3 players and cell phones. Where it breaks down is on essentials like roads, a military, etc… The only way free market would work for public goods/services is if some kind of group were created to oversee the production of said goods/services, imo. That sounds an aweful lot like government[/quote]
Ah man… you just don’t get it do you? No, America does not force you to stay there but EVERYWHERE you go - be it the UK, Europe, etc - is the same. They all force you to pay tax even if you disagree with it. That’s why it IS akin to theft. What I’m trying to say is if you withdraw your consent, then you should be able to stop paying tax, not that you have to leave the country! Actually, talking of America it is pretty bad, I work with some US guys in my job and they still have to file US tax returns as well as German ones, even though they don’t live in the bloody country! They have left! Talk about having a damn big hand in your pocket (and life!).
Look, if you agree with taxation, then for you if isn’t theft. You should be able to pay away to your heart’s content. More power to you. All I’m trying to say is that for those of us that disagree with it, and can’t stop paying it, it is theft. In the same way if I have sex with a woman and she agrees, it’s consensual. If she doesn’t, it is rape. Rape is always wrong! So is taking money from people that disagree with it. I don’t really care if people voted for taxation (which they didn’t, it was passed by congress, not the people in general), it’s still wrong if you don’t want it. People could vote to make rape legal, it still wouldn’t be right! I’m utterly amazed and saddened really that you cannot see the moral difference.
I think a free market would work, just as well, if not better than the govt. on things that we “need”. With no oversight, just the companies competing for business. Look, after all, we all NEED food. Would you trust the govt with the production and distribution of that? No… I thought not. Look how well it worked in Communist Russia! So if you don’t trust govt to produce THE most important thing we need to live, why on earth would you trust them with anything else?!!
Pushers, I hate to bring this up, but it seems you don’t get it. Look how far superior America is to the Soviet Union. Just look at that.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here.
[/quote]
Who brought up a utopian-type society? [/quote]
That’s what we all want, isn’t it?
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here.
[/quote]
Who brought up a utopian-type society? [/quote]
That’s what we all want, isn’t it? [/quote]
I just want freedom.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here.
[/quote]
Who brought up a utopian-type society? [/quote]
That’s what we all want, isn’t it? [/quote]
I just want freedom.[/quote]
And so does everyone else. So for everyone to have freedom, that would require everyone to respect everyone’s right to freedom. And freedom would then inherently be limited by this. i.e., You couldn’t have freedom to kill someone because you take away their freedom to live.
Utopia.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
Pushers, I hate to bring this up, but it seems you don’t get it. Look how far superior America is to the Soviet Union. Just look at that.[/quote]
Say what? America IS far, far, far superior to the Soviet Union! I totally get that, that’s what I was saying… Communism didn’t work AT ALL! Or am I missing your humour here - sorry if so, sometimes it’s hard to “get it” in the written word.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
Ultimately, I personally believe human beings are not at a state in which we could implement the utopian type society we are referring to here.
[/quote]
Who brought up a utopian-type society? [/quote]
That’s what we all want, isn’t it? [/quote]
I just want freedom.[/quote]
And so does everyone else. So for everyone to have freedom, that would require everyone to respect everyone’s right to freedom. And freedom would then inherently be limited by this. i.e., You couldn’t have freedom to kill someone because you take away their freedom to live.
Utopia. [/quote]
But a free society doesn’t mean exactly the freedom to do ANYTHING you like, it means the freedom to do anything you like as long as you respect the non-aggression principle (i.e. do no harm to others and infringe upon their rights) and respect for private property rights (so you can’t go taking “freely” that which does not belong to you)
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
And so does everyone else. So for everyone to have freedom, that would require everyone to respect everyone’s right to freedom. And freedom would then inherently be limited by this. i.e., You couldn’t have freedom to kill someone because you take away their freedom to live.
Utopia. [/quote]
Freedom obviously ends when it interferes with another’s. Freedom would not be limited by that admission. If one wants the freedom to interfere with the freedom of another, then one just wants to be a ruler.
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Say what? America IS far, far, far superior to the Soviet Union! I totally get that, that’s what I was saying… Communism didn’t work AT ALL! Or am I missing your humour here - sorry if so, sometimes it’s hard to “get it” in the written word.
I just want America to stop going down the socialist/communist/fascist path it’s going down now and move back to a freer society. It’s headed badly in the wrong direction if you ask me. It was a GREAT country but it’s seen better days as it has adopted European style social policies - all to its detriment.[/quote]
I’m not sure what you’re missing. Here’s the Soviet Union’s flag for comparison purposes. Now you surely get it.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Say what? America IS far, far, far superior to the Soviet Union! I totally get that, that’s what I was saying… Communism didn’t work AT ALL! Or am I missing your humour here - sorry if so, sometimes it’s hard to “get it” in the written word.
I just want America to stop going down the socialist/communist/fascist path it’s going down now and move back to a freer society. It’s headed badly in the wrong direction if you ask me. It was a GREAT country but it’s seen better days as it has adopted European style social policies - all to its detriment.[/quote]
I’m not sure what you’re missing. Here’s the Soviet Union’s flag for comparison purposes. Now you surely get it.[/quote]
Hahahaha! Nice. 
They’ve definitely both got red in em!
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Hahahaha! Nice. They’ve definitely both got red in em!
[/quote]
Well, you might still be missing the point. Look at this picture of my house. Do you think Stalin would have let his citizens worship his kingdom like this? #freedom
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]Pushers wrote:
Hahahaha! Nice. They’ve definitely both got red in em!
[/quote]
Well, you might still be missing the point. Look at this picture of my house. Do you think Stalin would have let his citizens worship his kingdom like this? #freedom[/quote]
Well then, yes, I did indeed miss your point! My apologies.
Though I do think Stalin would have LOVED his citizens worshiping him!
As long as people worship the land and not some ruler, all would would well with the world.