(Mighty) Stu Yellin, WNBF Pro Updates n Q&A

Training
21

[quote]littlebigguy wrote:
Glad to see things are progressing nicely. Took 6-8 months before I attempted dips after a similar surgery, and on an assisted dip machine.

Good luck Stu. Hope things keep progressing like they are. [/quote]

Yeah, I’m thinking I’ll definitely be erring on the side of caution. I’ve always been a big fan of dips and bench dips as a finisher for arm work, but I’m certainly not going to risk my shoulder just to get my triceps back up to what they once were. Hopefully things will fall into place.

As of this coming Friday I’ll be 12 weeks out of surgery (actually having a recheck with the surgeon tomorrow morning). My brother tells me that the “brakes come off” at 12 weeks, but there will be a whole list of limitations. No chest work, no trap work, no overhead work, no squats, hack squats or anything that puts large amounts of weight on the joint,… and I’m certain that for exercises like bicep curls and shoulder laterals I’ll be handling the equivalent of soup cans. (Who wants a video of me curling the pink dumbells?!) Still, I’ll be very happy just to start getting blood into the area. Knowing I’m getting close to being able to do ‘something’ is the gym is actually getting me a little amped up this week.

I know I’ve said this before, but I’m basically going to give myself until next year (Dec 2013?) to realistically see how well my body is piecing itself back together. If things look good, I’ll take more time to see if I can improve, and then see about possible future pro shows. In the meantime, I’m attending a meeting for new WNBF Judges next month. I was already asked to judge multiple shows in several other feds, but I figure I’ll stick here for the present. Guess the other areas of the sport aside from being onstage will get my attention. I’m sure being a judge can only add visibility for my prep services, and who knows, maybe I’ll promote my own show down the line.

S

22

Hey can I join in on this action? :slight_smile:

Good luck to Cat with her upcoming shows!!

23

[quote]fisch wrote:
Wanted to stop in and say good luck with the recovery. Im 7 months post op on a hip surgery and am still many months away from being anywhere close to normal, so I hope and expect by the time I return to normal lifting you’ll already have beaten me back.

In one of your posts one this page you mentioned how you include dynamic warm ups, specifically stuff like IT bands. What do you do for IT bands to loosen them up? They are an issue for me right now, and all I’ve been told by my PT is to do some wall stretches.

And I wanted to say thanks for all the time you spend offering advice Stu. I know I’ve pm’ed you a couple times and you were very willing to answer my questions.[/quote]

Hey Fisch.

Surgery is definitely a humbling experience. Watching the physical transformation your body goes through is bad enough, but the mental f-ing you do to yourself is just horrible. I’ve done my best to remind myself how lucky I am that my issue was at least something where surgery was an option. Sure it’s a long, slow road back, but some people don’t get the option at all. Most certainly you’re going to have quite a few changes to make in your training, as well as your warmups.

I may have the rare benefit of my brother in my corner, but I still picked up several books for my own knowledge on dynamic stretching, self-myofascial work, and even a book or two by trainers I might not normally have simply due to a chapter or two on warming up for specific activities.

For IT work, I would definitely suggest a combination of foam rolling, as well as massage work (some stick-like apparatus or even a lacrosse ball work fairly well and are always in my gym bag) focusing not simply on your bands, but the surrounding areas as well. Additionally, a well thought out series of stretches can only contribute to greater flexibility and elasticity in the area. While I’m admittedly not the expert to pen any articles on various stretches, there are a good number of texts available which was definitely not the case just a few years ago.

I’ve suggested to my brother that he author an article or two, as his combined real life experience working with so many top level professional athletes, and his highly considerable schooling and certifications puts him easily above the average trainer/coach who writes on the same few topics each week. Unfortunately he’s just not interested, and most likely would have trouble even finding the time. I’ll keep pestering though. He’s agreed to author a few chapters if I ever finish that book I started outlining last year, and I intend to hold him to it.

Best of luck with the continued rehab!

S

24

Wow, so last night I guess we’ve officially begun incorporating what any gym rat would consider ‘real’ exercises into my therapy. I’m going to have 3 PT/Training days (1 of which I can do at the gym on Saturdays), leaving me the other 4 days of the week to continue with the leg training protocol I’ve been following the last couple of months (quads, hams and calves each twice weekly).

I wish I had written everything down, but I’ll do my best to give an idea of the stuff I’m now doing and the weights as well. To anyone who hasn’t had a serious injury before, these #s will seem laughable, for those who know where I’m at, it’ll make a lot of sense.

Started with bit of moist heat while warming up on a hand bike (get everything in the shoulder going so to speak. This was followed with a series of various stretches for my lats, shoulder capsule etc. We actually did about 6 different stretches, each for 10 sets of 10 seconds. I was surprised how much time this took.

After this, we began incorporating what I might typically do for delts, albeit after a couple of sets of ‘Scaptions’ (sp?), which I believe get the traps firing. This is a dumbell movement which is very similar to the way I used to hit my lower traps with barbell raises laying prone on an incline bench. We did front raises, where I struggled for a couple of sets with 5 pounders, until it felt like some of the rust and cobwebs had fallen off, and we switched to the 10’s which went up surprisingly well.

Next, I did standing laterals. This was the movement that to simulate even without a weight caused my injured arm quite a bit of discomfort. Again, after initially feeling very awkward, we got to the 10’s, and stayed there. For rear delts, I’ve always been a big fan of rear laterals laying on an incline bench. Well, my brother had me actually lay down on a treatment table, and with one arm hanging lower, perform the movement with a perfectly straight elbow, but focusing specifically on my muscles to pull the scapula inward with each repetition. This required a serious amount of focus on my part. I’ve joked a lot the last few months about how humbling this experience has been, and this was just another reminder.

Next, there was band work. Usually I’ll use one that is anchored to the wall and perform inward and outward rotations. This time, I was to hold my arm up at a 90 degree angle, upper arm parallel to the floor, and rotate at the shoulder as if arm wrestling a much taller opponent. While I had grown used to using the most difficult band in previous week’s sessions, this new exercise knocked me right back down to the bottom.

This was followed with dumbell rotator cuff work, laying on my side. I’ve been doing this movement since the week after surgery, and it still gives me the most problems. While my weights and resistances have gone up with everything else, this one has just been a serious effort, as I still fight with the 5 lb dumbell.

After the shoulder area we hit the back muscles. 3 Movements, 2 dumbell oriented, and 1 barbell (I was so psyched! -lol) First up were dumbell rows, performed laying prone on a treatment table. I handled a whopping 40 pounder for this, and it felt great. Next, while still laying face down, we grabbed a 15 lb weight and basically did a movement similar to a straight arm pressdown. Very strict, hard squeeze at the top to really focus on the scapula area, and man did I feel it.

Finally, bent barbell rows. I was able to do these with a supinated grip, which might have been a problem a few weeks ago as bicep tendons attach to the labrum, and we had to be very cautious. Managed a few very strict, very slow sets with 105, and felt a great pump.

This was followed up with balanced my torso on a swiss ball (feet supported on a table) as my brother basically played bongos on it. The idea was to be able to stabilize myself with all the tiny muscles in the area. Also, something similar to floor presses. I took 20 lb dumbells, lay back flat on the treatment table (so my elbows could not go back behind my torso (thereby stretching my pecs to even the slightest degree), and did several sets of presses.

What we found (as Jeff expected) was that my left arm had to struggle a bit. Not with the weight itself, but simply with the movement itself. His only bit of encouragement for the night was a “yeah, I started with 20’s too… of course I was back up to the 100’s by 6 months post.”

And lastly, a few sets of dumbell curls, where 15 reps with the 10 lb weights left me with a noticeable pump.

And of course I then received my usual ‘manual’ therapies. Laser work, physical manipulation by a PT, ice and muscle stim.

All in all, I feel great today. I am a little sore, no doubt I’m completely detrained in terms of actual muscle fibers as well as simply coordinating the motions. Gonna be some trip relearning everything, but at least now I feel like we’re really moving forward.

S

25

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Wow, so last night I guess we’ve officially begun incorporating what any gym rat would consider ‘real’ exercises into my therapy. I’m going to have 3 PT/Training days (1 of which I can do at the gym on Saturdays), leaving me the other 4 days of the week to continue with the leg training protocol I’ve been following the last couple of months (quads, hams and calves each twice weekly).

I wish I had written everything down, but I’ll do my best to give an idea of the stuff I’m now doing and the weights as well. To anyone who hasn’t had a serious injury before, these #s will seem laughable, for those who know where I’m at, it’ll make a lot of sense.

Started with bit of moist heat while warming up on a hand bike (get everything in the shoulder going so to speak. This was followed with a series of various stretches for my lats, shoulder capsule etc. We actually did about 6 different stretches, each for 10 sets of 10 seconds. I was surprised how much time this took.

After this, we began incorporating what I might typically do for delts, albeit after a couple of sets of ‘Scaptions’ (sp?), which I believe get the traps firing. This is a dumbell movement which is very similar to the way I used to hit my lower traps with barbell raises laying prone on an incline bench. We did front raises, where I struggled for a couple of sets with 5 pounders, until it felt like some of the rust and cobwebs had fallen off, and we switched to the 10’s which went up surprisingly well.

Next, I did standing laterals. This was the movement that to simulate even without a weight caused my injured arm quite a bit of discomfort. Again, after initially feeling very awkward, we got to the 10’s, and stayed there. For rear delts, I’ve always been a big fan of rear laterals laying on an incline bench. Well, my brother had me actually lay down on a treatment table, and with one arm hanging lower, perform the movement with a perfectly straight elbow, but focusing specifically on my muscles to pull the scapula inward with each repetition. This required a serious amount of focus on my part. I’ve joked a lot the last few months about how humbling this experience has been, and this was just another reminder.

Next, there was band work. Usually I’ll use one that is anchored to the wall and perform inward and outward rotations. This time, I was to hold my arm up at a 90 degree angle, upper arm parallel to the floor, and rotate at the shoulder as if arm wrestling a much taller opponent. While I had grown used to using the most difficult band in previous week’s sessions, this new exercise knocked me right back down to the bottom.

This was followed with dumbell rotator cuff work, laying on my side. I’ve been doing this movement since the week after surgery, and it still gives me the most problems. While my weights and resistances have gone up with everything else, this one has just been a serious effort, as I still fight with the 5 lb dumbell.

After the shoulder area we hit the back muscles. 3 Movements, 2 dumbell oriented, and 1 barbell (I was so psyched! -lol) First up were dumbell rows, performed laying prone on a treatment table. I handled a whopping 40 pounder for this, and it felt great. Next, while still laying face down, we grabbed a 15 lb weight and basically did a movement similar to a straight arm pressdown. Very strict, hard squeeze at the top to really focus on the scapula area, and man did I feel it.

Finally, bent barbell rows. I was able to do these with a supinated grip, which might have been a problem a few weeks ago as bicep tendons attach to the labrum, and we had to be very cautious. Managed a few very strict, very slow sets with 105, and felt a great pump.

This was followed up with balanced my torso on a swiss ball (feet supported on a table) as my brother basically played bongos on it. The idea was to be able to stabilize myself with all the tiny muscles in the area. Also, something similar to floor presses. I took 20 lb dumbells, lay back flat on the treatment table (so my elbows could not go back behind my torso (thereby stretching my pecs to even the slightest degree), and did several sets of presses.

What we found (as Jeff expected) was that my left arm had to struggle a bit. Not with the weight itself, but simply with the movement itself. His only bit of encouragement for the night was a “yeah, I started with 20’s too… of course I was back up to the 100’s by 6 months post.”

And lastly, a few sets of dumbell curls, where 15 reps with the 10 lb weights left me with a noticeable pump.

And of course I then received my usual ‘manual’ therapies. Laser work, physical manipulation by a PT, ice and muscle stim.

All in all, I feel great today. I am a little sore, no doubt I’m completely detrained in terms of actual muscle fibers as well as simply coordinating the motions. Gonna be some trip relearning everything, but at least now I feel like we’re really moving forward.

S[/quote]

Hey Stu,

I’ve followed all of your threads the past couple of years and have always enjoyed your contest prep threads.

I was in the same boat for years and had two shoulder surgeries; one was arthroscopic and the other a full cut to repair my jacked up left shoulder. I know how depressing it can be to go from being in pretty good shape (nothing compared to you, but decent) to barely being able to lift a pink db lol.

I never did enough back work and didn’t even know what a rotator cuff exercise was until it was too late. It has been five years since and I still do my rotator cuff work but there are several lifts I still can’t do like bench press, dips, etc.

I’m not sure if you mentioned this but what kind of surgery was it? Mine was to repair a SLAP lesion. Long story short I am now stronger than I have ever been but I’ve noticed my left shoulder (the one that had two surgeries) is higher than my right. It has been this way for years and I’m guessing it’s from dislocating it so much. If I could do it all again I really wish I would have consulted with a PT or something to avoid it, as it is pretty noticeable. Anyways, I’m sure your brother is very knowledgeable and probably wouldn’t let that happen to you. I’m not sure if it was from the surgery or multiple dislocations but I don’t think I will ever be able to reverse it.

Anyways, good luck with the rehab! Bands are definitely your friend, and those lower trap exercises are a great idea; many people forget how important they are for shoulder stability.

Cheers!
Mark

26

[quote]markdp wrote:
Hey Stu,

I’ve followed all of your threads the past couple of years and have always enjoyed your contest prep threads.

I was in the same boat for years and had two shoulder surgeries; one was arthroscopic and the other a full cut to repair my jacked up left shoulder. I know how depressing it can be to go from being in pretty good shape (nothing compared to you, but decent) to barely being able to lift a pink db lol.

I never did enough back work and didn’t even know what a rotator cuff exercise was until it was too late. It has been five years since and I still do my rotator cuff work but there are several lifts I still can’t do like bench press, dips, etc.

I’m not sure if you mentioned this but what kind of surgery was it? Mine was to repair a SLAP lesion. Long story short I am now stronger than I have ever been but I’ve noticed my left shoulder (the one that had two surgeries) is higher than my right. It has been this way for years and I’m guessing it’s from dislocating it so much. If I could do it all again I really wish I would have consulted with a PT or something to avoid it, as it is pretty noticeable. Anyways, I’m sure your brother is very knowledgeable and probably wouldn’t let that happen to you. I’m not sure if it was from the surgery or multiple dislocations but I don’t think I will ever be able to reverse it.

Anyways, good luck with the rehab! Bands are definitely your friend, and those lower trap exercises are a great idea; many people forget how important they are for shoulder stability.

Cheers!
Mark[/quote]

I suffered a “grade 6 Slap tear”. Basically the labrum completely torn off, with additional partial fraying of the spinatus, and bicep tendon. Of course when the surgeon went in he also discovered that I had no cartilage in the joint, so yay, more good news -lol. The funny thing was that even though all parties agree that I actually did this many years ago, I never really experienced any discomfort or limitations in the gym that might indicate anything being amiss. I get the feeling that most people suffering from rotator cuff related issues seem to limp along for a while, sort of knowing that something’s not right, but just not wanting to address it for fear of losing ground (and boy do I sympathize with the notion).

5 Years huh? I’ve come to terms with the fact that I won’t be able to do everything I was accustomed to initially, but I’m certainly hoping to slowly, and intelligently see just what pieces I can put back together in the long run. I’ve always maintained that with any injury (within reason of course), there’s always a “workaround”. You just have to be clever enough to figure it out and driven enough to carry it out.

While I’m not planning on having to have another surgery on this particular shoulder for a long while (I have been told that I’ll probably be looking at total replacement when I hit 70), the whole episode does make me a bit wary about what’s possibly going on in my other shoulder. The advice I received about that was “if it’s not giving you any problems, don’t even consider it!”

As of now, I’m just hitting the rehab with as much intensity as I would hit the weights normally. Staying focused, making sure I get quality nutrients throughout the day (with a little garbage here and there -lol), and staying on my supplements to cover all my bases. One of the trainers at my gym commented to me last Saturday that “If anyone can come back from this, and return to their previous condition, it’s you.” I’m aiming to prove him right.

S

27

And here’s a little update on what my gym/rehab day on Saturdays currently looks like. Tues, Thurs and Sats are ‘rehab days’, including stretching, rotator cuff, shoulder, and back work, with a little tricep, bicep, and chest being slowly introduced. All other days of the week are alternations of quads/abs and hams/calves.

-Lotta stretching
-Scaptions/Front Raises/Lateral Raises (I went off into the aerobics studio to grunt as I worked with 10 lbs)
-Back rows on the standing cable column (really focused on keeping my scaps pulled back)
-Straight arm pressdowns on cable column (short bar attachment)
-Tricep Pressdowns (cambered bar, no rope yet as we don’t want any shoulder rotation)
-Standing Dumbell Curls (moving the 15’s! yeah Buddy -lol)
-Shoulder external/internal rotation on the cable column

Nothing crazy, but you’ll see that certain selections are included every PT day (Tues, Thurs and Sat), and others are included on only one of those days. Tuesdays and Thursdays also include a lot of manual therapies, where a DPT actually positions, and pushes the hell out of my shoulder while I either resist, or simply lay there and getting kneaded like meat. Also on those days are bouts of ice and muscle stim, deep massage, ultrasound, and moist heat treatments.

Fun Fun fun. Still, the one really good part about being at this point is that even though there might still be some discomfort, I know that I’m not going to rip apart all the surgical work that was done inside my shoulder. Now I just need to reintroduce normal movements before ultimately moving on to my usual abnormal movements :slight_smile:

S

28

Last night’s therapy session involved a lot of the usual stuff, but with some different back work. A little 3 angled selection of exercises entailing Lat Pulldowns, Cable Rows, and TRX Inverted Rows was called for.

While I had been doing rowing movements for a few weeks now, the Pulldowns were the first time I’ve been able to work my shoulder in a vertical motion. At first, I was very hesitant, knowing that this was something we’d been careful to not rush into. I set the weight stack at 50,… felt like nothing, 60… still nothing, 70, 80, 90, 100… each for easy sets of 10.

At the 100 setting, one of the PT’s walked by and seemed almost a little upset that I appeared to be pushing myself. I told him that the weights were just laughable, and that by no means was I going to risk screwing up my rehab. I stayed with the 100 for a few more very slow, and strict sets, definitely feeling that I was re-learning the motion. The resistance wasn’t an issue, getting all the muscles to work fluidly together was. By the last set though, I was feeling damn good.

A little while later, one of the Athletic Trainers who works at the facility, and is a competitive powerlifting (and a damn big dude) approached me chuckling about how he saw me doing my pulldowns “like a bodybuilder, pulling with his elbows” -lol. What can I say? So many little tricks ingrained in my head over the years, I don’t even realize what I’m doing half the time. :slight_smile:

Eventually, my brother stopped by just to check in (on his way home from the gym), and we grabbed dinner with a few of the staff. When I told him about my strength levels the first time out with pulldowns, and the concern expressed by one of the other PTs, he said “meh, you and I, we’re different from normal people, don’t worry about it.” Works for me -lol. Now let’s go and get some strength back.

S

29

Looks like things are on the upswing! Seated cable rows, lat pulldowns… starting to look like a typical back day. How long until you’re able to begin pressing?

30

Also, the fact that you tore your labrum many years ago without noticing any major discomfort scares me.

31

Stu, I wish you the very best in your recovery. I can’t wait for you get back up to speed and start kickin ass again. you are a great motivation in all of your logs. Thanks

32

@MAIDEN 316: Not too sure on the exact time frame, although my brother has mentioned a few times that after his surgeries he was “back in the gym” 4 months later. As of today, I’m 13 weeks post operation so I can only assume that it won’t be too long. I did the ‘table presses’ (laying face up on a treatment table and pressing DB’s in an abbreviated motion) last night with a slightly heavier weight than last week, and by the last set was feeling a bit of a pump going on in my front delts and triceps.

I also pushed a little more on other exercises; laterals with 15’s (which felt horrible at first, but by the last set, felt great), DB curls with 20’s (same feelings as with the laterals), BB rows with 115, and Prone DB rows with 50’s. Obviously all of this is insanely super strict, and with subtle tweaks here and there to make sure I fully engage everything I need to stabilize my shoulder. None of my old ‘ensure you stress your target muscle’ approach for now, my current target muscles have nothing to do with building aesthetics for the stage.

To be honest, the fact that I had trained for so long, and with such considerably heavy weights for so long with no indication of anything being amiss scares me a bit too. I keep wondering if I should be extra careful with my other shoulder, if I’m going to need both labrums done like my brother did (just genetic luck of the draw I suppose), or if I should just go on normally like all of the PTs and surgeons have advised.

Hell, I find myself wondering if even returning to competition once I’m able is the smart thing to do. I have no doubt that I can return to my usual off-season condition, but anyone who has ever prepped for a contest (you know what I’m saying) knows that it can be pretty stressful on your body.

The nice thing is that I have time to worry about all of this later down the line. For now, I’m just taking one step at a time, and the plan to piecing myself back together.

@DEADLIFTINDAGO21: Thanks so much. It’s really amazing how the internet lets us interact with people from all over the world who share our interests and goals. Whenever I’ve kept a log on here, and I see the number of views continually going up, I wonder just who is even reading it. Then I’ll get an email or a couple of new clients from another country (I seem to be quite popular in England lately -lol), and it just makes me smile. For all the times I’ve met up around NY and NJ to train with guys I’ve met on here, it’d be damn cool to take a trip overseas and hit the iron with some of the local T-folk.

Quite an avatar pic you’ve got there. I’ll have to pay attention to your posts as well, get some motivation to keep my own game up!

S

33

well hey if you are ever in sicilia we will have to train. thanks for the compliment. means a lot coming from you. speedy recovery

34

A funny thing happened as I was doing my usual Saturday training (although on Sunday, as I spent Sat in CT at a Strongman event supporting Anthony Vidal and TN author John Gaglione). It’s occurred to me, the commonality of shoulder injuries among athletes who regularly engage in weight training, and I’ve even witnessed other gym goers doing specific warmups that clued me in to whatever issue they’re dealing with.

Well, yesterday, while I was doing a bit of tricep pressdowns following my usual shoulder/back rehab work, I saw a rather large individual that I recognized from usually training around the same time I do. He was hanging off of a bench and doing sort of ghetto version of a reverse-hyperextension. I asked him about his lower back problems, and told him that I had made use of the exact same movement after I torqued my sacrum several years ago.

We began chatting and it turns out he’s a fighter (MMA I assume, but a friggin’ tank with the weights), and while we discussed injuries, he described his “herniated discs all over the place”. He noted that he had seen me performing ‘scaptions’ with the light weights earlier, and having seen the pics of me at the gym’s entrance, figured I must be recovering from a shoulder issue.

There are actually a good number of ‘older’ (and by older I don’t mean old, but certainly not still college age) trainers in my gym, and out of them, a considerable number that compete. Not a lot of the younger gym rats realize this, but having to fit your training in to a ‘real life’, when there’s the pressure of a family and a regular job actually forces you to be disciplined like you may not be able to do while you’re still a student. I’ve said this before, but while I may wish I had started competing earlier in life, I doubt I would have had the mental tenacity and toughness needed to do as well as I have.

I’m hoping now that having a better sense of my life’s ‘big picture’ will help keep me in check as I continue my rehab. My brother keeps on me about not being stupid and pushing too hard too fast, plus I have a very supportive training environment that keeps me driven, yet smart about what possibilities the future holds. Works for me.

S

35

Stu, your right about creating the mental toughness to fit bodybuilding into ones lifestyle, especially as one ages and life becomes more complex. When I was in my 20’s, I trained at night after work. Once I got married 10 years ago, I switched to a morning routine. Just this morning, I woke up at 5:45am to train in my cold garage before work and my spouse and kids woke up. I wore gloves to keep my hands warm in the garage. My friends call me a freak, but oh well.

Bodybuilding / lifting is important to me. As a result, I make the time. I also make the time to eat, prepare my meals etc. It’s hard but it’s my passion.

I returned to competing this fall, after a 12 year layoff. I had a deeper appreciation to be able to do so and felt it was a blessing. Hang in there and keep plugging away on your training. My suggestion is not call it rehab but training!

36

Stu,

This may have been addressed in an earlier thread, but I’m interested to hear your thoughts on the physiology of regaining lost mass and strength. I’ve just been cleared to start lifting heavy again after six months of some medical problems that my doctors and family wanted to figure out before I was cleared for heavy resistance training. In the interim, I was allowed to do lighter weights (the doc essentially capped me) which I did for higher reps, and I started getting back into running (which was my earlier competitive area before lifting).

Honestly, I wasn’t sure that I was going to be cleared for lifting again, but now the issues have been cleared up.

Right now, I’m about 25lbs lighter than I was and have lost around 100lbs on my squat and about 75 on bench (just to give a baseline of strength loss). I was actually sort of relieved that I can still squat 300 for a few reps and bench 200 for a set of six, lol. My goals are BBing related, though.

I’m wondering how I should approach the period where I’m essentially “getting back to square one.” I was really hammering some food to get to 205 (I’m 5’10"), and I’m basically contemplating hitting that same amount of food after a present three week period that I’m thinking of as an introduction back into the game.

So, two weeks ago I was at 4k cals/day, this week 4.5k cals, and next week I am going to make the jump to 5k cals. Given my activity level (two hours in the gym per day), that’s what it took for me to get to 205 in the first place.

The workouts have been brutal, and I’m very sore (and do not yet have the work capacity that I did, of course–more rest needed during the two hour period).

TL;DR: My basic question has to do with whether regaining mass and strength that one previously had within a year of a forced layoff will benefit from a more aggressive eating and training regimen than one would normally contemplate. I formerly trained with Big Beyond Belief, but I’m going to switch that split after I get back to where I was.

Thanks for any insights.

37

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
Stu,

This may have been addressed in an earlier thread, but I’m interested to hear your thoughts on the physiology of regaining lost mass and strength. I’ve just been cleared to start lifting heavy again after six months of some medical problems that my doctors and family wanted to figure out before I was cleared for heavy resistance training. In the interim, I was allowed to do lighter weights (the doc essentially capped me) which I did for higher reps, and I started getting back into running (which was my earlier competitive area before lifting).

Honestly, I wasn’t sure that I was going to be cleared for lifting again, but now the issues have been cleared up.

Right now, I’m about 25lbs lighter than I was and have lost around 100lbs on my squat and about 75 on bench (just to give a baseline of strength loss). I was actually sort of relieved that I can still squat 300 for a few reps and bench 200 for a set of six, lol. My goals are BBing related, though.

I’m wondering how I should approach the period where I’m essentially “getting back to square one.” I was really hammering some food to get to 205 (I’m 5’10"), and I’m basically contemplating hitting that same amount of food after a present three week period that I’m thinking of as an introduction back into the game.

So, two weeks ago I was at 4k cals/day, this week 4.5k cals, and next week I am going to make the jump to 5k cals. Given my activity level (two hours in the gym per day), that’s what it took for me to get to 205 in the first place.

The workouts have been brutal, and I’m very sore (and do not yet have the work capacity that I did, of course–more rest needed during the two hour period).

TL;DR: My basic question has to do with whether regaining mass and strength that one previously had within a year of a forced layoff will benefit from a more aggressive eating and training regimen than one would normally contemplate. I formerly trained with Big Beyond Belief, but I’m going to switch that split after I get back to where I was.

Thanks for any insights.[/quote]

Wow, we’re definitely in similar boats in terms of considerable amounts of muscle being lost. While I’m not exactly ‘cleared’ for the gym, I’m at least able to do enough stuff that I can opt to be at the gym (or using weights in PT) 6-7 days a week, which is certainly better than when I was completed restricted at the onset of rehab.

The concept of Muscle Memory, is not what many people believe it to be. It’s not that your muscles actually remember being a larger size, it’s that there is a physical change that occurs when you first built your muscle up beyond the starting point. While I won’t start copy/pasting chunks of a biology text, I’ll mention how satellite cells can either turn into muscle cells themselves, or contribute nuceli to another cel. Both possibilities will serve as a benefit should you find youself detrained, and having to begin again. Obviously having more muscle cells can serve a useful purpose, but also, having more nuclei present can serve for better reactionary response to training after a layoff.

In terms of strength, you sound like you’ve had enough of a layoff that your weights are not quite what you used to lift. When you first started training, you were nowhere as strong as you would eventually reach at your peak levels. However, even the light weights you handled were sufficient to promote muscle growth as well as strength gains. The point I’m getting at here, is that some people would view this aspect of a rehab as a plus. Imagine being able to get a full adaptive hypertrophy/strength response from a smaller actual stress. Your joints would certainly thank you -lol. This is something my brother has repeated many times to me, referencing his own shoulder rehabs, as well as forecasting mine. Yes, the strength will return. How long that will take depends on any number of factors. In the meantime, know that a lot of your regaining strength levels can return simply from dusting off unused, rusty movement pathways.

To address the regaining of size,… ah,… well there’s the tricky one. This is the one aspect that I truly care about, and that dogs my concerns of returning 100% to form. Strength and size can be correlated, but are not the same thing, no matter how much some people want it to be. There will always be big guys who are weak (relatively of course!) and smaller guys who are just strong as hell. I’m not going to downplay strength training, because that’s certainly not my forte, but hypertrophy training will always be at the mercy of time. You can have the best genetics, the best diet, the best training, but none of those will magically allow you to put on 20 lbs of lean muscle tissue in a couple of months. Muscle growth takes time! I had been training for years before I ever entertained the idea of stepping onstage. Fortunately I wasn’t crazy enough that when I failed to put on 5 lbs in a month I didn’t quit.
Here are some things you must keep in mind when addressing your training after an extended layoff:

-Your BMR is NOT what it was when you were at your previous peak. You can’t just jump back to what you were eating before. You will put on fat, no doubt, if you use that approach.

-Your body’s genetic potential to build muscle hasn’t improved in the last year. Yates always said that in the absolute best case scenario, someone can build 1-2 lbs of muscle/month tops, and I always assumed he meant to include PEDs in that estimation. I’m not sure how old you are, but I’m at the edge of 40, and I’m certainly concerned that while I have made noticeable progress the last few years, perhaps my body just isn’t up to the task of packing on the 15-20 ls I’ve lost.

-Your body may not handle food the same way after a lay off. This isn’t a reference to lowered insulin sensitivity due to getting pudgy, but when your body composition changes, when your metabolism shifts, everything shifts as well. Before my injury, even in my off seasons, I could eat an entire cake before bed and still wake up with a pretty good set of abs. Now? Oh hell no -lol.

-Recovery- If you were used to a very strenuous training protocol, whether in terms of frequency, volume, or even just very intense sessions, jumping right back onto that bandwagon is probably not the bed idea. Believe me, now that they’ve got me doing ‘some’ type of work for my delts, and back 3x a week, we’re talking about 1, maybe 2 exercises each time. Sure I always do a few more sets than a typical patient might, but I’m trying to keep myself focused on the big picture, You have to get back to some sort of baseline level before you can really start pushing things. The fact that I can bent row 135 now is very quickly balanced by the fact that I struggle with 5 lbs for YTW’s. Big Picture!

My own diet has not been the strictest ever, BUT I’ve been doing my best to eat frequently, and really start to push the protein a bit more than when I was just sitting, or sleeping in a chair all day. I figure that when Jan 1st gets here, and my wife starts her contest prep for a couple of Spring shows, I’ll lock my own diet and training down in a tighter manner.

Remember, if you had to take the layoff due to some sort of injury, it’s not like you just got busy with work, there was a GOOD REASON for it. Keep things in perspective, take little steps, and focus on the future when all of this rehab nonsense will just be a memory.

Best of luck!

S

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Hi Stu,

Quick question with regards to when you cut down? Do you bother doing any high intensity sets like drop sets, supersets or 3 second negatives? Do you see any point when as a natty its mostly about holding muscle when cutting, rather than growing? The way i see it is its just making there more to rebuild, when there aren’t enough blocks.

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Whats up Stu? Wishing you the best on your comeback. After reading about your previous experience in the field of exercise science and how avidly you research. I’m intrigued to ask you for a few book recommendations? In terms of bodybuilding and nutrition.

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[quote]ESX wrote:
Hi Stu,

Quick question with regards to when you cut down? Do you bother doing any high intensity sets like drop sets, supersets or 3 second negatives? Do you see any point when as a natty its mostly about holding muscle when cutting, rather than growing? The way i see it is its just making there more to rebuild, when there aren’t enough blocks. [/quote]

I used to be a big fan of drop sets, rest pause, and the usual ‘intensifiers’ that you always read about in the magazines. The last few years though, aside from my preference for pre-exhaust work when addressing a stubborn or naturally weaker bodypart, I’ve really adhered to a very basic, straight forward method of training. That’s not to say that they’re a bad thing.

Whether training for gains, maintaining, or even cutting, the bottom line with adding any aspect to your training (drop sets or other intensity techniques, more volume, more frequency…) is that your individual recovery abilities, and similarly, your diet have to be able to support what you’re subjecting your body to. Some people can train in such an intense manner all the time, and have no ill effects on their gains while others have to walk a fine line in terms of doing too much.

I understand what you’re getting at, with the goal of holding muscle while cutting. Some people will oversimplify what’s going on though. You will often hear about the following types of dieters:
1-very little cardio, but lengthy and frequent weight sessions
2-Lots of cardio, and very short, infrequent weight sessions

You have to view your weight work while cutting for everything it is going to be relied upon for.
-Signaling the body that the muscle tissue is needed, so no atrophy occurs
-Using up ingested nutrients via recovery/building so that little to none are left to feed adipose tissue
-Simply expending calories during gym sessions

It has been my experience that the more weight activity you engage in, the higher you can keep your nutrient intake. Sure, it gets somewhat more complicated than that, as you don’t want to excessively run your body down by doing 100 drop sets, all to failure 7x a week, but there’s a point of balance where everything is working together as you move steadily towards your goals.

The idea that you can’t make gains while dieting is a widely believed one, and I guess if you go by the notion of there not being “enough building blocks” as you put it, it would make perfect sense. However, the fact that the body is redirecting the limited foods you ingest, so long as your training is synced up correctly, you will not only NOT see a drop in your strength levels, but you will maintain, and in some cases, even be able to add muscle.

Is it an ideal environment? Of course not. But as Jim Cordova once explained to me (in very simplified terms)… the body is in a state of emergency, and it’s the perfect time to make gains if you’re smart about it.

S