Have do you train chest now? If you don’t press do you feel it’s adequate what about good enough for new growth? Can or do you deadlift and squat appreciable weight?
I’ve just been putting off this surgery for years, and want to know what is possible afterwards.
Stu,
Is there a macro breakdown you prefer or feel one should start at? Would it change depending on whether one is cutting or gaining?
This may be a weird question but, you have mentioned you like to keep cardio to a minimum when cutting, what do you consider cardio? Does it have to be HIIT or treadmill on an incline at a constant speed? Would you count walking your dog as part of your cardio? I am walking my dog 2x a day 45- 60 min total. Wondering if I should drop all other cardio except maybe HIIT 2x a week.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Have do you train chest now? If you don’t press do you feel it’s adequate what about good enough for new growth? Can or do you deadlift and squat appreciable weight?
I’ve just been putting off this surgery for years, and want to know what is possible afterwards.[/quote]
Hey, sorry I didn’t get to this sooner. First, let me stress that depending on the nature of your particular injury, things can bounce back very well, or really just end up being quite limited afterward. My brother had both of his shoulders ‘done’, and while he avoids flye movements to be on the safer side, he regularly tosses up considerably heavy weights on the incline (bar) and flat (DBs).
With myself, my shoulder was unquestionably worse than either of his. The fact that I experience odd aches and pains on a daily basis even when doing nothing is a constant reminder that the rules are different for me these days.
While I can train chest, there are good days and bad days. The grinding and clicking can range from simply being a nuisance, to being painful and limiting indeed. The musculature has indeed filled in a bit since my lengthy post surgery rehab period, but I do not think for a moment that I’ll be able to fully get back the thickness I had before that point. The main thing I have to keep in focus is tehhstability of the shoulder girdle. This is the reasoning for a lot of the movements I currently use in chest sessions. While laying on a bench is ok, too much preventing the scapulae from moving freely can contribute to further issues.
Currently, my usual chest work looks like this:
After about 15 minutes of various stretches…
-Free Motion Cable Machine- I do a sort of flye/press that allows my entire shoulder region to move freely in space, while not causing too much pain, clicking of grinding. I do these for several sets in a standard flat/decline angle, as well as a slight incline angle (all while standing upright).
-Incline Smith Machine Presses - I keep my elbows fairly close to my body, and really try to get ‘into the muscle’ without piling on too much weight.
-Flat DB Presses - Some days, these feel great, others not so much. The angle and placement of the 'bells at the bottom of the movment varies as I try to work around whatever post surgery issues I’m having that day. Some days I can’t do this at all (Others I toss up 90’s and feel kinda good)
OR
-Seated Flat press machine - This was the first exercise they let me do for chest post surgery. I can set the ROM so that I don’t get the really deep stretch point. Unfortunately, I used to love getting that deep stretch, and I think it contributed a lot to my progress over the years.
-Pushups - I always finish with these. My brother really loves them for stabilizing the joint. I had been finishing my chest sessions with flat bar presses with weights hanging from bands (to work all the stabilizers) for a while, but he suggested that these were not only easier, but you could also have someone place a 45 lb plate on your back and really get some good stimulation for your pecs out of them as wel (especially at the end of your session).
And then I do some rotator cuff work.
As far as other exercises, I can certainly move respectable weights. I can’t do front squats anymore, and as back squats never really gave me the quad development I was after, I use them more as a finisher in my leg work. Deads are a similar thing. My lower back was at its best when I stopped DLing and focusing on heavy weighetd hypers. So these days, when I do throw them in, it’s always at the end, nothing stupid heavy, and more for higher reps.
How bad is your shoulder? You’ve been putting off the surgery, but have you been in physical therapy or are you just sucking it up and dealing?
S
stu
where do you stand on high incline dumbbell presses.
i feel that it hits my upper chest better than any other exercise.
i will keep doing it but i also want to listen to your opinion.
thanks in advance.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
How bad is your shoulder? You’ve been putting off the surgery, but have you been in physical therapy or are you just sucking it up and dealing?
S[/quote]
Only one labrum is torn off, and I have a hill sach region that is going to be corrected. I’ve never had pain long as the shoulder is in, and almost a full range of motion, just tough at the end of an external rotation. So I never went to physical therapy, but I’ve always done shoulder flexibility exercises and stretches. Usually I put a 25 lb plate on the floor and just turn it trying to use my rotator cuff, as well as catching medicine balls with my arms at full extension. My issue was always a very unstable shoulder, I usually do that for a few months and stay away from sports.
Sorry to hear your shoulder does that. Do you find the clicking and grinding easing as time goes on or does it feel like something that will always be there?
[quote]bigboikivanc wrote:
stu
where do you stand on high incline dumbbell presses.
i feel that it hits my upper chest better than any other exercise.
i will keep doing it but i also want to listen to your opinion.
thanks in advance.[/quote]
It’s interesting you ask that, because I always told people that the standard 45 degree incline bench places a lot more direct stress on the front deltoids. When I tried dropping them from my routine back in 2010 (employing DB presses at a very slight incline instead), my training partner was very quick to point to my losing a bit of thickness from my decision. In hindsight, I think it was more from my shoulder/chest region than just my chest, but as I didn’t really document the period with photos, I can’t say with 100% certainty.
Now personally, I think that my eventual upper chest development came more from a combination of placing a low incline bench in the cable station to do flyes on along with learning how to perform the incline barbell bench in a slightly arcing ROM, rather than simply from only going heavy on a compound movement. I cannot emphasize the importance of the path you ‘press’ the bar enough. Lowering the bar further down on your sternum, and then pressing up in a slightly curved path will change the areas you’re targeting quite a bit. Just try the motion with one hand, while using your other one to feel the tight contraction you get in your upper pecs!
To me, the incline barbell hits my overall chest (mostly the middle area if I had to narrow down where I really felt the stretch) much better than flat work, or declines. For that reason alone, I always kept it, and did my best to get the conscious ‘stretch/squeeze hard’ out of the movement instead of just piling plates on continuously.
Still, I do believe that in general a lower incline (15-30 degrees) will definitely target your upper pecs more than a 45 degree angle will, but again, the variable of how you perform the movement cannot be underplayed. I’m sure that my using the lesser incline for my cable flyes and then a higher (standard) incline for presses is what helped me bring my chest up from where it was when I first stepped onstage.
Hope that helps 
S
I was chatting with a very buddy the other night who is very well educated (IMO) on nutrition, and bodybuilding, and we came upon an interesting topic. In referencing people in real life as well as online (lots of folks online -lol) I tend to see people falling into two extreme ways of viewing their approach to nutrition and training:
One group tends to minimize the complexity of getting into condition (or even putting on size), almost going out of their way to make it seem a simple task. Such an approach is usually characterized with bragging about how many ‘unclean’ carbs are eaten, or how many times they can still enjoy their favorite food chains while getting ever closer to their goals. Sometimes you also here about how little cardio is being done, or even how they’re just spending time in the gym at all.
The other group (and obviously I’m discussing extremes here), seems to go out of their way to make every training (prep or not) period sound horribly grueling, just almost unbreable to all but the most hardcore disciplined trainers. Sometimes you get to see daily FB status’s recounting how many daily sessions of cardio are being done, and then see the littering of upwards of 10 different hashtags all referencing how hard they’re working.
Now I’m not throwing this out with any intention of discrediting either extreme view. I personally have my own opinion on most matters. Simply, I figured it was an interesting situation that I’m sure many others have taken notice of. Surely not everyone would view the same protocol with the same degree of perceived difficulty. Of course not everyone has the same lifestyle outside of their training to present some type of balance.
I’m sure both competitors and noncompetitors have their own thoughts on the topic.
S
As much as I love the internet, I miss the days when people could not post every mundane daily task and/or thought for the world to experience, as if it mattered.
Sort of on topic.
Hey Stu, how have you been…i suppose i’ll back track and read a bit.
My wife is again trying to get ready to actually do a show - sometime in 2014 Spring…
I wrote J. Meadow’s in his thread, if you want to take a look and toss in your 2 cents…that would be awesome!!!
I hope 2014 is kick ass for you!
[quote]cyruseven75 wrote:
Hey Stu, how have you been…i suppose i’ll back track and read a bit.
My wife is again trying to get ready to actually do a show - sometime in 2014 Spring…
I wrote J. Meadow’s in his thread, if you want to take a look and toss in your 2 cents…that would be awesome!!!
I hope 2014 is kick ass for you!
[/quote]
Hey man, how’ve ya been?! Me, well, the game has changed a bit, but finding myself more in demand as a judge and coach isn’t such a bad thing at all.
I’d rather not pop in to a thread where you specifically asked JM’s advice, as his forum is really a place where I think he does his best to field questions without fully providing what are his normally paid services for free (which I totally respect), and as I work with a lot of clients myself, I am always trying to stress that different people approach things quite differently. Heck, I get plenty of people coming to me who have had very worthwhile experiences with other coaches previously, and so despite the fact that I may handle things quite differently, I take great care not to step on toes or give any impression of disrespect or disagreement. Of course I also would rather not be just another voice chiming in with my two cents
In my own experience, it took me a while to really dial in my legs the way I needed to in securing that Pro card. Things you have to remember though, and this was echoed to me all throughout my years being around other competitors (and other Pros), is that in most cases, an individual’s lower body will be a step or two behind the upper body. Jim Cordova told me a long time ago that while his upper half was ‘ready’ in the 170’s, he needed to get into the 160’s for everything to match in terms of conditioning. That’s about a 10 lb difference!
A few things that I found that helped me:
-Be willing to diet longer, and weigh less than what you initially think
-Make use of a yohimbine containing fat burner to mobilize lower body fat stores
-Follow interval cardio with steady state cardio. This is total anecdotal, but a lot of top competitors theorize that once you free up fatty acids into the blood stream, you then need to actually make use of them. Again, I doubt you’ll find any scientific literature backing this up -lol
-Developed much better control over continually flexing my legs. I would practice squeezing the hell out of them (iso-work) all throughout my regular work day. Waiting for an elevator? 'spreading the floor with my feet. Standing behind my desk at work while lecturing? Flexing my hams and glutes the entire time.
Hope that helps a bit! Keep me in the loop.
S
Stu!!!
thanks for reply/insights…and i understanding not wanting to huff or puff or chime in on a thread intended for JM. He’s a pretty awesome dude, my wife kinda loves him in a cool uncle/sibling type of way…the reminds me of “the dude” form the big L in the since that he rocks funky t-shirts and wears socks w/ sandals!
Take a look at the thread pic though, she’s added a ton of muscle and is getting better and better – at the gym it’s kinda like i’m the dude w/ the big shot girl w/ me…he hehe she gets the attention/looks.
sorry to hear about your shoulder. my left shoulder is fucking shot too…haven’t done an overhead press w. much over a 60lb db in ages…i stick to side and rear delt stuff and the truth is my shoulders are doing ok.
i’ll share your “advices” brother. kick ass in 2014!
So I had an interesting week. Last week, I actually didn’t get to train simply because I was so buried with new clients (a good thing, so I can’t complain -lol) that I’d get home from my day job and basically end up writing emails and spreadsheets all night. During that time, my lower back felt a little tight, but I just figured it was from hunching over my laptop so much more than usual. Well, when Saturday rolled around, the wife and I went out dinner with my two brothers, their ladies, and a few friends.
Despite having made reservations, we found ourselves standing around by the door of the establishment for quite some time. It was during this lovely stretch that I felt my lower back really pop into spasm. So much so that my right leg buckeled a bit. It weirded me out, as I hadn’t trained in a while, and certainly I would remember if I had done anything that would cause any issues. I figured I just needed to lay down, get some sleep, and just let everything decompress.
By the time Sunday rolled around, I was in some serious pain. My right let kept buckling under me as bolts of pain shot from my lower back everytime I put my full weight on my leg. Cat was getting a little scared, and even though I was too, I calmly told her I’d pop over the the Physical Therapy place I’ve frequented over the years through various injuries. I called in to my job and left a message saying I’d be in Monday morning, but would need to leave early to see my DPT. No biggie I figured.
Well, Monday morning I couldn’t even get out of bed. The pain was just insane, and walking? Imagine my full weight hanging onto my 110 lb wife as we both wear ‘wtf’ expressions on our faces. Cat pleaded with me not to go into work, and called in to her own job to tell them that she wouldn’t be in. I did the same. Because we were up at our usual 5am, Cat drove me to the PT office in time for a 7am looksee. The first thing I was told was that I was ‘really off’.
Remembering my 2007 injury (torqued my sacrum - similar pains to what I was experiencing now), it seemed to make sense, despite not knowing how it had now reared it’s head again. After plenty of manipulations and adjustments, Jess (the PT) suggested getting a shot. She texted a Dr she worked with telling him I was an emergency case, and told me that I should just head over to his office so I’d be there when he got in. Well, long story short, the Doc was out of the Country for a while, and there wasn’t anyone else she could pull strings with.
I called my brother, DPT Extraordinaire. He made a few calls, and over the next couple of hours, I had gotten an X-Ray, an MRI, and scripts filled for a serious 6 day pain/anti-inflam pack. When the MRI results came in I found that I had a few disc herniations (L2-L5), and plenty of ‘excitement’ in the area. In fact, one of the PTs I’ve been working with told me that that first morning I limped in, my lower back looked like it actually had golf balls in it!
So long story short, It’s now 5 days later. I’ve been back to work since yesterday, and boy are those meds I’m on working some magic. Physical Therapy everynight has made a huge difference, and I’m certainly already planning how to prevent any more such issues in the future, despite my still not knowing what the hell triggered this in the first place.
I’ll type more about my brother’s opinions on what this was, how, etc in a bit, but I’m at work right now and occassionally I do have to do something more than play around online while on company time
S
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
So I had an interesting week. Last week, I actually didn’t get to train simply because I was so buried with new clients (a good thing, so I can’t complain -lol) that I’d get home from my day job and basically end up writing emails and spreadsheets all night. During that time, my lower back felt a little tight, but I just figured it was from hunching over my laptop so much more than usual. Well, when Saturday rolled around, the wife and I went out dinner with my two brothers, their ladies, and a few friends. Despite having made reservations, we found ourselves standing around by the door of the establishment for quite some time. It was during this lovely stretch that I felt my lower back really pop into spasm. So much so that my right leg buckeled a bit. It weirded me out, as I hadn’t trained in a while, and certainly I would remember if I had done anything that would cause any issues. I figured I just needed to lay down, get some sleep, and just let everything decompress.
By the time Sunday rolled around, I was in some serious pain. My right let kept buckling under me as bolts of pain shot from my lower back everytime I put my full weight on my leg. Cat was getting a little scared, and even though I was too, I calmly told her I’d pop over the the Physical Therapy place I’ve frequented over the years through various injuries. I called in to my job and left a message saying I’d be in Monday morning, but would need to leave early to see my DPT. No biggie I figured.
Well, Monday morning I couldn’t even get out of bed. The pain was just insane, and walking? Imagine my full weight hanging onto my 110 lb wife as we both wear ‘wtf’ expressions on our faces. Cat pleaded with me not to go into work, and called in to her own job to tell them that she wouldn’t be in. I did the same. Because we were up at our usual 5am, Cat drove me to the PT office in time for a 7am looksee. The first thing I was told was that I was ‘really off’. Remembering my 2007 injury (torqued my sacrum - similar pains to what I was experiencing now), it seemed to make sense, despite not knowing how it had now reared it’s head again. After plenty of manipulations and adjustments, Jess (the PT) suggested getting a shot. She texted a Dr she worked with telling him I was an emergency case, and told me that I should just head over to his office so I’d be there when he got in. Well, long story short, the Doc was out of the Country for a while, and there wasn’t anyone else she could pull strings with.
I called my brother, DPT Extraordinaire. He made a few calls, and over the next couple of hours, I had gotten an X-Ray, an MRI, and scripts filled for a serious 6 day pain/anti-inflam pack. When the MRI results came in I found that I had a few disc herniations (L2-L5), and plenty of ‘excitement’ in the area. In fact, one of the PTs I’ve been working with told me that that first morning I limped in, my lower back looked like it actually had golf balls in it!
So long story short, It’s now 5 days later. I’ve been back to work since yesterday, and boy are those meds I’m on working some magic. Physical Therapy everynight has made a huge difference, and I’m certainly already planning how to prevent any more such issues in the future, despite my still not knowing what the hell triggered this in the first place.
I’ll type more about my brother’s opinions on what this was, how, etc in a bit, but I’m at work right now and occassionally I do have to do something more than play around online while on company time
S[/quote]
Sorry to hear all of this. I’m sure not know what caused it is scary as hell! It can be hard to fix something when you have no idea how you broke it in the first place. Take care Bro.
You know what is so weird is that I have heard many lifters( talking LONG time lifters, not 1-2 years) that “get hurt” when they take a week off. I took a week off last year and my forearms suddenly got real painful in the flexed position and stayed that way for months.
Dave Tate in his logs has talked about lifters getting mystery injuries in the weeks they take off if I am not mistaken.
Its a curious phenomenon… Somehow letting the body heal up causes these things to bubble to the surface. Who knows if they were there all along, or if it’s new thing due to the remodeling going on?
My plan if it happens again is to try and do SOMETHING if you have to take a week off… Push ups, pull ups, squats 3 times a week or something. Get the blood flowing and muscles moving.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
You know what is so weird is that I have heard many lifters( talking LONG time lifters, not 1-2 years) that “get hurt” when they take a week off. I took a week off last year and my forearms suddenly got real painful in the flexed position and stayed that way for months.
Dave Tate in his logs has talked about lifters getting mystery injuries in the weeks they take off if I am not mistaken.
Its a curious phenomenon… Somehow letting the body heal up causes these things to bubble to the surface. Who knows if they were there all along, or if it’s new thing due to the remodeling going on?
My plan if it happens again is to try and do SOMETHING if you have to take a week off… Push ups, pull ups, squats 3 times a week or something. Get the blood flowing and muscles moving.[/quote]
Man hope things get sorted out Stu and you get back on track.
Lonnie your right on the money with this.After my shoulder surgery I couldn’t do much of anything(lifting wise)for about 2 months.Even a lot of lower body lifts cause of the whole body tension you create would hurt my shoulder.Getting back into full steam mode the past month or so I have had more aches and pains than ever before and all types of strains just popping up.I have had to foam roll,stretch,use voodoo bands etc like never before.It’s finely paying off but there for awhile it seemed like shit was not coming back.I thought I would only have to rehab my shoulder but it turned out I had to rehab my whole freaking body.So ya when you take long time lifters and make them stand in the corner and take time off it comes with huge setbacks I believe.
[quote]Lonnie wrote:
You know what is so weird is that I have heard many lifters( talking LONG time lifters, not 1-2 years) that “get hurt” when they take a week off. I took a week off last year and my forearms suddenly got real painful in the flexed position and stayed that way for months.
Dave Tate in his logs has talked about lifters getting mystery injuries in the weeks they take off if I am not mistaken.
Its a curious phenomenon… Somehow letting the body heal up causes these things to bubble to the surface. Who knows if they were there all along, or if it’s new thing due to the remodeling going on?
[/quote]
Lol, I’ve actually heard that before. I figure the fact that even after my shoulder surgery, I’m not training like I used to, small issues that may never have reared their heads (being held in check by the larger, compound musculature I had built) now have more potential to be problematic.
I remember the first couple of years I competed, sometimes during the last few weeks, when my body fat was extremely low, and I was definitely worn down a bit, I would feel aches where I had injured myself years earlier.
Anyway, since my little back problems last week, I’ve been going to PT every evening, with a good amount of success. My brother’s thinking is that despite the disc issues, which he 100% believes would have shown up on the MRI to some degree even without any symptoms (I am 40, and have been training for 20 years now), it seems to be a musculature issue. As I had torqued my sacrum many years back, this time, for whatever reason, a few muscles went into spasm, pulled the pelvic area out of whack (I was told by a DPT who is an expert at such issues that I was ‘seriously off’ when examined), which triggered all of the bottom vertebrae to shift accordingly - “like the game Jenga” is what I was told.
So now, we’re doing tons of core and gluteal work to ensure a strengthening of the entire region, as well as a whole slew of quite painful ART adjustments on regular basis. My brother says I’ll be back to more ‘regular’ gym training next week, but with reliance on a lot more machines, and I’m certain there will also be a lot of movements I’ve either never done, or simply ignored.
Last night, as I was being put through the paces, the fact that I grew so reliant on front squats during my last few years competing became a topic of discussion. I always said that even though I used to be able to back squat respectable weights, my quads never looked like I needed them to. According to Flex magazine (my training info source at the time -lol) it was because my glutes were bearing the brunt of the stress.
Well, it seems that in my efforts to grow my quads, and not grow my ass any more, I may have created an issue where I had a possible muscular imbalance, or even just created a situation where my glutes were reluctant to fire. [I’m totally just thinking aloud here, I’m not a doctor.]
[quote]jppage wrote:
Man hope things get sorted out Stu and you get back on track.
Lonnie your right on the money with this.After my shoulder surgery I couldn’t do much of anything(lifting wise)for about 2 months.Even a lot of lower body lifts cause of the whole body tension you create would hurt my shoulder.Getting back into full steam mode the past month or so I have had more aches and pains than ever before and all types of strains just popping up.I have had to foam roll,stretch,use voodoo bands etc like never before.It’s finely paying off but there for awhile it seemed like shit was not coming back.I thought I would only have to rehab my shoulder but it turned out I had to rehab my whole freaking body.So ya when you take long time lifters and make them stand in the corner and take time off it comes with huge setbacks I believe. [/quote]
THanks man. No question about it, injuries suck. I find that it’s even worse mentally when you can’t pinpoint a specific thing you did that triggered everything.
Glad to hear you’re getting back into things. I’ve been there a couple of months post surgery, and you’re just itching to get at it. Everything changes though. My warm up for my shoulder takes me a good 15-20 minutes before I even get to doing anything for what I’m aiming to train. Still, like you said, after time off (post surgery, and now, after somewhat of a layoff) things start to ache that you never even considered.
Man, this last year really hit me like a freight train -lol
S
Stu, are you up on John Meadows stuff? I can’t imagine you arent, but If not you may want to check out his work in terms of how he sequences his exercises during a workout. One of the main aspects of his program is training properly to avoid injuries, and a large part of that is the structure of his workouts. Obviously I’m not the man himself, but I’ve read everything of his I can get my hands on and I’m happy to lay this out a bit if you aren’t familiar with it.
Heres to a Speedy recovery.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Stu, are you up on John Meadows stuff? I can’t imagine you arent, but If not you may want to check out his work in terms of how he sequences his exercises during a workout. One of the main aspects of his program is training properly to avoid injuries, and a large part of that is the structure of his workouts. Obviously I’m not the man himself, but I’ve read everything of his I can get my hands on and I’m happy to lay this out a bit if you aren’t familiar with it.[/quote]
I suppose this could count as a hijack, but I’d actually be interested in your take on how he does that (even if Stu isn’t 
I’ll chime in to agree with Lonnie. I’ve had a couple discectomies at L4-L5 and L5-S1 (each twice) the last couple of years, and Meadows stuff has me able to push it (somewhat!) and still feel pretty good.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I suppose this could count as a hijack, but I’d actually be interested in your take on how he does that (even if Stu isn’t ;-)[/quote]
Pasting the whole thing is too long, so here’s the link:
The BASIC outline is Pump ~> Overload ~> Pump ~> Stretch. And by “pump” he doesnt mean fluff work, but the FOCUS isnt simply on moving the weight, but on using the exercise to bring blood to the area
In a leg or chest workout that might look like:
-Leg Curl ~> Squat ~> Leg Press (3 sec negatives) ~> Leg Extension (squeeze hard) ~> SLDL with 25’s to get a deep stretch
-DB Bench, slight incline bench, explosive bench with pause on chest, machine fly
Its a very intelligent way to layout a training session, with an emphasis on longevity so you can train for a long, long time while still getting to satisfy the itch to lift heavy things.