Gratitude
Respect
Civility
Deference
Not being fat
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I guess my list would go:
Educated, smart. (I want to be able to share thoughts).
Outgoing. Having a good sense of humour.
Confident and ambitious in something in life.
Compassionate.
Looks do matter too. No need to lie about that.
We are not naturally monogamous. Monogamy is a choice for those who have sexual options.
Enforced monogamy is critical for a high-trust, sophisticated society. For keeping society stable, monogamy needs enforcement. Polygamy doesnāt, because itās natural.
Iām not 100% against polygamy in all situations.
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I think itās somewhat justified if a relationship is otherwise good but one of the pair is legitimately asexual and the other isnāt.
Why the heck would these two marry? This seems like a bad idea from the start. lol
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But in practice looks go first. Nobody sees an ugly stick and decides to go find out how smart and compassionate she is.
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The relationship you just described is āfriendsā
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4char
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I agree.
True.
There definitely are other cases too: someone is not seeing someone as attractive, but gets interested when hey get to know each others better, but thatās not how it usually goes.
Looks alone arenāt enough though. At least for me. Iāve had also experiences where Iāve found someone really attractive looking, but when I have had little chat Iāve decided that āyes, but noā.
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I like this. Iāve often said to younger guys at work that ask āHow did you get good at that?ā Whether it was tree stuff, fabrication stuff- āBeing good at something is hard. Anybody can half ass it, butyou have to really focus your efforts for a long time to get good at anything.ā.
Good woman/ wife/mother- gonna take work, and lots of it.
Good man/husband/father- same.
There are no easy outs on this stuff. One of the things me & a couple of guys I kinda work with has been that the grass is what you make it. There is no other side and its no better/easier doing what āthat guyā is doing than what youāre doing.
I guess one dude got a bit of a bug up his ass and said something to the effect of āyeah, we should switch places for a dayā¦ā which had me laughing almost instantly. I responded āSure thing man! All you gotta do to be in my position is cut trees for about 15 years, then jump into fab/welding for another 15, and throw a heart attack in the mix for good measure.ā.
He didnāt have much to say after that.
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Yep. Most of us know this from lifting, but it actually applies to anything valuable in life. The really important and valuable things in life need work and effort (parenting, marriage etc.).
This was partly what I meant when criticizing over-individualism and the culture of enjoyment. People are getting used to easy and getting their dopamine running with low effort activities.
But the āme-me-meā attitude and seeking of constant enjoyment doesnāt lead to better quality life.
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You should have seen the look of astonishment on my sons face when we got one of those retro-gaming sets with all of the old school games on them.
You have three chances-Go! Heās like āwhat theā¦?ā
Then I told him that each game play used to cost a quarter! In 1982 money!!!
Like, if you die instantly, 3 times- thats it. Walk away. There are 20 other people with quarters lined up on the machine.
There was no respawning.
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agreed. Iāve just never had it go the other way. If I donāt want to have sex with her, regardless of how amazing she is otherwise, a relationship likely isnāt going to work.
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I canāt find the original, fuller context and may be missing cues but I donāt like this approach myself. It reads like becoming something else for someone else, which is a problem by itself. But teeing it up as doing it to āearnā a woman feels off as well. I understand women love to be pursued princesses but this feels like table setting for manipulation.
What always worked for me and advice I would give younger men was being myself. I met my wife this way, and as youāve made it clear you remember @EmilyQ I met other women this way before her. I also met women who ranged from disinterested in to probably hating me along the way 
. I hope theyāre doing well in their own lanes.
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Yeah. That is also true. Some people like to or are the type of person to go all in. Others moderate, and some count themselves out before even trying.
Theyāre all being themselves. Iām not saying people should change who they are or adopt an alter ego to pick up women.
For a while I was telling guys or who ever on here that asked āhow do I pick up womenā that they should go fly fishing. Cuz every time I went to even a remotely public place, a women or two would stop and watch and want to talk. Theyād say stuff about how serene, graceful or what ever it was that they were seeing that got their attention.
They didnāt see the ocd practice casting or internet video instruction. They just saw me, a guy in his element, having a good time. And occasionally catching a fish.
It was still me. It was just me doing that. It probably wouldnāt have been nearly as interesting or conducive to conversation if I was all snagged up, swearing, and throwing my shit in the water though.
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I think for some of the men under discussion here currently (the problems of men and women, bitterness between the sexes) looks and provocative dress are nearly all they care about, and itās enough to fuel them into a relationship.
For women something similar can be true - not the looks, probably, but the perception of power/strength/money. In both cases the relationship is formed around shallow connections and mostly āyou benefit me.ā
Looks and money* are fine, but they donāt mean a great deal when the baby is screaming for hours in the middle of the night and sheās post-c-section and insecure about her body and he believes his higher income should allow him to sleep through the colic and have access to the body sheās now shy about and theyāre both cranky and primed for conflict.
Over time she stops trusting men and either seeks independence from them or becomes avaricious in her dealings with them, while he becomes what we see on these boards so often.
*When I say looks and money, Iām talking about what we see generally at one of the local night spots, not the kind of looks and money the top 1% bring. Sheās a hot retail worker and heās a cop or works at a well-paying factory. Average people. Because if we start looking at higher earning people, e.g. doctors or executives, weāre now having to take into account the intellects and drive that allow for that, and generally speaking these people make better choices in partners with statistically much better outcomes. Too, no one is truly devastated by the division of assets in the case of divorce at higher incomes, unless theyāve been very foolish with money along and along.
Me too! I love it because it allows for the consideration that working out is not the only hard - itās hard being overweight or out of shape, too. If Iām feeling fussy about the lack of parity in keeping the kitchen clean (itās HARD being the only one to rinse the sink!) I have to remember that for me, itās hard watching TV alone. I only like doing it with my husband, with whom I share a running stream of commentary and critique. Now Iām bored if someone isnāt demanding āpause it!ā to complain that they should just shoot the guy and weād be saved all this trouble. Being married is hard. Being alone is hard. Choose your hard.
For years Iāve been pointing out to people at work that while medications certainly can have side effects, there are side effects to not taking them as well. I might tell a parent that I absolutely share their concern over medicating a young child, but as it is she is spending her entire school day being behaviorally managed outside of the classroom. Being uneducable is also a side effect with long term impacts. People with giant anxiety disorders are often afraid of meds - okay, but you realize that the side effect of NOT taking it is that you canāt go into a grocery store and are essentially imprisoned in your home. Thatās a big downside of not at least trialing it.
People seem wired to only note the difficulty of the change. Why should I have to change myself for women? You donāt! But not having access to them seems to be troubling you. And they are not going to change to accommodate your desire to be the least that you can be.
No one wants a shitty partner or plumber or therapist or dentist. And why should they? Itās confusing to me that this is even a question. Andrew seems to think I favor women, but I absolutely support men in not wanting to take on a lazy user. Whether they work or stay home, like, have some fucking pride in yourself.
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I cross-posted (or jumped into the middle of the conversation, who knows) and will have to come back to this so I can work out. But I agree with you. Unless youāre a shitty partner. Then youāll just have to accept that maybe no one will want you. Or they wonāt stay with you. Or whatever.
I like this. Im like an MST 3000 type. My wife hates it. I do this alot, and sheās a hang on every word type, exasperatedly rewinding every couple of minutes due to my spontaneous verbal outbursts.
This is partly what lends to being āboredā of a spouse, what you mentioned earlier. Also the expectation of husband as court jester.
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I like the saying: marriage is partly love, but mostly dedication and work.
Its not always fun and games and your wife/husband is not 100% of the time the lusted partner of your dreams (and he/she does not need to be).
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