Men and Women, Women and Men

Off Topic
905

IMO this is totally dependent on policy management. China has some smart fuckers and will organically develop some advantageous advancements, but by and large their economic prowess comes from pirating or skimming off the top of western development contracting production to them. Not only do they get to see immediate functionality but they glean market and world economic insights from a western, and specifically American lense. It gives them the ability to see our hand.

We can manage that by finding other manufacturing partners who are more tightly politically controlled. Or by bringing production home in a protectionist scenario.

What China did have was exclusive access to massive amounts of rare earth minerals, but we apparently just found a plethora of them in Alaska and that, like oil has been, will be massive leverage for generations to come.

The west openness to “others” is the root cause. I agree this is a problem for western culture. Let’s look at it from a religious lense; specifically Christianity vs Islam. Christianity teaches you to turn the other cheek. Islam teaches you to slit non converter throats.

Even secularizing, the west is built on judeo Christian principle. This has been translating to misapplied “love wins” ( unconditional love), deleterious tolerance, relativism et cetera. And other cultures are taking advantage. Reference melting pot verses salad bowl mentioned earlier in the thread. Then, they try to become the dominant ingredient.

The fix? Frankly it’s intolerance. Conform to current culture or get the fuck out. I don’t think we will ever truly get here so this probably will be a lost position.

I’m not convinced. I think it would hurt Europe. Collectively “the west” but then again the UN and EU are part of the problem ushering locust style migration to the west so burning it down and reestablishing native culture could tip scales back.

This will hit China, India et cetera first.

I’m torn on this one. Traditional religious culture is dying, but materialism is a western religion at this point and everyone is buying in, with America leading the charge.

Leverage will be key here. Forcing pipeline by playing strengths. We still hold those. From resource control to military might.

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906

Edit: reply went to Anna instead of Emily.

Of course what you said here is reasonable. But with sexual liberation, there was bound to be an inflated number of single men because of the pseudo polygamy it creates. It’s not even polygamy by marriage in which people can actually tell who is with whom with clear lines drawn.

As I’m getting to here, we live in what an acquaintance of mine calls a dishonor culture. In such a culture, people are rewarded for doing the wrong thing. Shitty men win, and women go for winners. As I’ve quoted previously from Devlin, “Like inflation, sexual liberation turns the market morally upside down by actively punishing the virtuous while rewarding the vicious”.

He also wrote of other causes of mass inceldom, which I’ll add to.

  1. The abolition of monogamous marriage strengthens the already strong, the female at the expense of the male, and the attractive at the expense of the unattractive.
  2. Enforced monogamy forces women to make decisions and acts against the notion of limitless choice. And yes, it artificially strengthens the man’s position, just as marriage used to, but not in the ways people typically think (eg, caricature of household tyrant). Monogamy is artificial. So the proponents of polygamy who say “Polygamy is natural; most animals are polygamous,” are correct, though they ignore the civil unrest and backwardness it causes, mass inceldom being one of them. In a society people like to consider “Western,” most men would be married.
  3. In the current day, “Those who wait for marriage will be waiting forever”.
  4. When men don’t display their dominance (as is the case of the matriarchal US), women respond with sadism. Like Baskerville said, in a matriarchy the women despise the men. Ironic, right? This doesn’t mean the women don’t want to screw some of us, just not for building a relationship or forming a family per se—using us like dildos and sperm donors. If one takes a peek at modern feminist content, he’ll see utter hatred for us, even flippancy for large-scale male death.
  5. The enormous social and monetary costs of single mothers impregnated by alphas falls onto innocent third parties (society at large).

Obviously sex, marriage and relationships (clown marriages), aren’t rights. Men aren’t owed women. And in many cases individual men’s behaviors or situations turn off women. There are also some unfortunate, homely men. But examination of the sexual market cannot be put on individuals.

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907

First, let me say that I don’t believe in this concept, and frankly reject it. Women are “hardwired” for cooperation and pair bonding, or at least trained for millennium to it. I believe that horny young men who’ve been raised poorly (could be shitty family that fails to teach empathy and moral behavior, or worse, hurts the son so he is out in the world angry and seeking to hurt people, or could be father who glorifies conquest) meet young women who have been raised poorly (many with a father who is unfortunately a shitty dad, maybe he treats the mom - the daughter’s primary role model - badly and mom tolerates it) and lack self-respect and discernment to know that what is offered is not love or respect. Or maybe both feel it’s love, but neither is capable of a healthy relationship, so it breaks up and they move on to the next hopeful 3 week thing.

Women aren’t the ones labeling them, they are labeling themselves. The name itself contains the self-identifier. And men like you have made a cause of it, broadening its use. If a woman is judging, they’d use a term like “loser” or “idiot,” and they are right to, just as men should look at a woman with poor hygiene and who can’t keep a job with a critical eye. It is not a functional man’s job to save her; it is not hers to take him on as a project. Lazy and selfish people make their choices, just as ambitious and generous people do. Have you heard the “choose your hard” meme? Being womanless is hard. Becoming someone worthy of a good woman is hard. Choose your hard.

Blanket of protection for choosing not to pair bond with bitter young men who externalize blame for their problems onto others? Basket of protection for the women who work and carry the bulk of the home and child care and then find themselves additionally dealing with a husband who can’t keep a job and who has a $400/mo weed habit?

The government does not support a life of dignity for low-earners. It should. The government does not support high school education that prepares students for success in the workplace. It should. Women have established vast networks of support, both official and unofficial, to help them navigate this new world. Men like you would do better to use your energy to encourage the struggling men to build themselves up, not seek to pull the competent women down.

The vast majority of couples come from the same socioeconomic group. The vast majority of couples are similar in terms of looks and intellect. Promiscuous men tend to find promiscuous women, while steadfast and respectful men tend to find same. Most of my closest friends are with husbands they started dating as teens. One of my sons has been with his wife since they were 16. The other married son has had three primary (love) relationships and a couple of brief things. All were nice girls who showed up at the dinner table. In fact, as far as I know, all of the prospects of all of the kids have come to dinner at some point. My sons are not beta bucks. They’re regular boys dating girls. This is what I see all around me socially. At work, different story. Here are the abused and neglected kids engaged in the behaviors you decry, but for the reasons I outlined at the beginning of this post. My job - and I’m excellent at it - is to prevent girls hurt in childhood from recreating these neglects and abuses in their dating lives.

On Sunday I had what seems to be an annual visit with one of my very first clients, with whom I worked from the summer after 8th grade until she aged out of my program at 18. We have kept in touch because she needed someone. There is one other with whom I keep in touch. Anyway, so five hours of basically therapy on Sunday, now focused on improving her 11 year marriage to a guy she introduced to me as “he has a library card!” not because she was a reader, but because she knew I would like that and so felt it must indicate something good.

If you feel passionately about the young men, you should be this to one or some of them. Someone who helps them understand what’s going wrong and offers sound advice. Teaching them that they’re fucked over by the women they are jealous that others are treating like shit seems a poor path to improvement on both a personal and societal scale.

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908

I am glad you mentioned this. Before I got so tired last night, I was going to post something along these lines, a general list of what is probably trite advice, but perhaps needs to be said considering what’s going on today. I am particularly glad you mentioned the male social laziness and female initiative in forming networks, as it’s going to be my first point written below. I think the network is the base of all else.

If I were to tell young, wayward, confused guys something, it would be this, though judging guys these days, it will remain fantasy, something I would have done in my younger years if I had certain characteristics then.

  1. Form a (mostly lawful, lol) gang of loyal and physical guys. Go beyond just “hanging with the boys”. Have a hazing of sorts, but don’t kill each other. Teach and practice with one another martial arts, hook each other up with jobs, life skills, weapons use, start businesses with one another, introduce potential mates, host events, lift and exercise with one another. Educate and recommend reading material to one another. You can even practice public speaking with one another. Do not depend on schools to educate you in all areas of life.
  2. Focus on making as much money as possible as your talents and intellect allow as soon as possible. Invest early, whatever amount you can as soon as you get your first part-time job. There are several ways to make money online. Start something, or just even attempt to start something while in college. If it fails and you could absorb the cost with your own money, who cares?
  3. Get rid of anyone who routinely disrespects and mistreats you. That might include family members.
  4. You do not need to sew your wild oats. If you find a good and loyal woman early, then stick with her, marry, form a family, and get on with your life. Just be very freaking careful considering the divorce regime.
  5. Within reason, if something scares you, do it anyway. You’ll be very sorry for not taking risks.
  6. Stay away from most manure-sphere content.
  7. If you do all the above, you will not have to look for women. They’ll go to you.

Item 1 is a pipe dream, I believe, but it’s actually something I would attempt if I were very young these days.

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909

I think a large issue now and days is that women aren’t taught how to treat men. Many men aren’t taught how to treat women.

We have to much confusion in gender roles now and days.

Boys should be raised to treat women with respect. Girls should be raised to treat men with respect.

I’m more of a traditionalist when it comes to relationships, but my wife has a successful career. She doesn’t cook for me. However, we have a happy marriage.

She does the majority of chores for the kids, because she likes it. I help with laundry and dishes fairly frequently. I do all outside work.

I expect my wife to be a hard worker, support me when needed, and to raise our kids in the best way possible.

I would imagine she expects the same from me.

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910

I think Islams threat to the western culture is massively exaggerated.

of course I also support assimilation policies and every(?) European has been tightening their immigration policy for last 10 years. But I don’t see Islamic culture replacing western any time soon.

Not to mention that handing these cultures in “Clash of Civilization” -style is simplifying.

The whole problem is that terms Alpha and Beta don’t have clear meaning or definition in human context, since they’re not used describing human hierarchies in studies.

So people have vastly different views what these mean. I personally don’t use them at all and think they’re stupid.

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911

Yup. Was bound to happen with sexual “liberation”. Some boys/men I grew up with in the 90s talked about and treated females in disgusting ways.

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912

This is why i can’t with you.

You literally WONT treat women equally. And you never will.

Goodbye, and sincerely fuck everyone like you.

913

No, they’re not used in studies. They are general terms.

In the context of sexuality, here’s how I see it.

Alpha: Highly sexually desirable man, usually of high status. Doesn’t mean he’s a good man, though he might be. In this day and age, usually dishonorable.

Beta: Ordinary man. Doesn’t mean good or bad either.

914

What this includes?

Ps. That’s pretty different view as how wolf studies used the term. It basically meant leading male/female.

915

Right.

They are bucket terms, just like masculine and feminine.

But these container words summarize characteristics and behaviors that elicit certain responses in women.

Alpha: sexual attraction; want their babies
Beta: support, security; now basically means “money and emotional tampon”.

I do believe women want both in a man, but one can only go so hard in one direction before taking “points” from the other side.

Dangerous men will always win in the sexual marketplace.

Yes, the terms have been dumbed down. A lot. Generally better off not using them.

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916

Besides being dangerous, what traits generally interest women in your opinion?

917

I obviously haven’t been talking about wolves. As I said, I use these loose terms for sexuality.

High status, whether from talent, money, popularity, daredevil activity, some types of criminality, thrills, or class. Looks help, but they really don’t beat the aforesaid. Looks are at the bottom of the pile.

Plenty of beta (ordinary men) are attractive and good looking, but they are not high status and do not induce what the above do.

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918

Tall
Athletic build
Being indifferent to women (while also being desireable)
She wants to look up to him
“Nice thing / mean thing” dynamic
 do something nice for her, do something mean to her, repeat (neither in extremes, but look at all female romance novels)
Being dangerous to others, but not necessarily to her

They all want to feel like they’ve tamed an untamable beast, and are okay with being bitten in the process.
Except they never actually want him to be tamed; just tame enough.

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919

On behalf of all of the women and boomers a/o gen x and voting public and everyone else who is not a male in your age cohort with views exactly like yours, let me apologize for making your life such a challenge!

After this dressing-down I will give more thought to women’s responsibility to carry the water for whatever prick or loser wants them to, so as not to burden good guys like you, whose motives are purely altruistic and not a result of a bent for externalizing blame.

Oh dear - that last was passive-aggressive, wasn’t it? Mea culpa again. But I know you understand, because I’m just a female and can’t help myself, unlike you. Too, if I were to be both direct and honest it would be more than I believe would be good for you or the conversation, and I try to avoid doing harm.

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920

I can see this being sexually arousing for some women. Not the best option for marriage though.

I agree with these, specially if daredevil behaviour means confidence in actions. Not criminality though, since upper class women tend to see criminals as losers in my opinion.

But looks aren’t so low as one might think, even that men tend to emphasise looks on women more than vice versa.

My two cents/list for things women generally see attractive:

  • Talent (definitely, being very good at something, specially in some public activity such as playing an instrument).

  • Having ambition. (This too).

  • Confidence. Good self esteem.

  • Empathy/social intelligence (and I don’t meam being a softie, but being socially capable of reading and understanding others emotions).

  • Charm (maybe a combination of things above).

  • Looks (to an extent).

  • Influence and wealth (in some cases).

Andrew used word dangerous, but I would prefer a mixture of confidence and readiness to act.

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921

Right, and that’s the story of the last 60 years in America.

They get to have both, then quietly (sometimes) resent their husband for being less arousing than their past escapades.

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922

Criminals attract an inordinate amount of women. It doesn’t matter that some women look at them as losers. Most gang members and mafiosi are plenty confident. They’re never womanless. And some ordinary man’s confidence doesn’t measure up to the balls, power, and social dominance of such men. Have you ever seen how women behave around gang members and drug dealers and known about the sexual access these men have?

I’ve also heard that “only low-class” or “trashy women go for such men”. These are the same “trashy women” who, if they were nice to and accepting of a relationship with an ordinary men, would have these willing ordinary men wrapped around their fingers. Though I don’t know how numerous they are, there were a fair share of middle-class young women who liked rolling around in the dirt during my time.

In the Spring of this year, I spoke to a former classmate from Kindergarten to high school who liked to hang around with what I would consider a low-tier or wannabe gang from my town in Queens. I say low-tier because they, despite having some violent and tough people (one was a psychopath who served time for felony assault of a marine), they were no match for other middle-class or poor gangs of the 80s and 90s, especially one from a nearby town who maybe even some New Yorker Gen X T-mag members remember, who were criminals heavily involved in the graffiti scene of those days. We went down memory lane and she told me about how the gals rotated through the guys like musical chairs. No heavy dating or relationships required. “We swapped spit,” she said. I admitted to her my frustration as a young guy that I expressed to my therapist long ago (I saw one in my teens because of divorce), “These (few) girls from my (small) town seem to be owned by these guys.” Her response: “I cannot say that was untrue. We would not consider anyone besides these boys. I thought I was with the most desirable boys around.” Other statements in our conversation: “They were crazy.” “They were psycho.” “Remember so-and-so. He got locked up for
” “Remember her. She ‘dated’ __, and then she ‘dated’, and then after him __
”

I have other examples of such men and their women with more lurid details. I will spare them for now.

On the bright side, she also said, “I thought you didn’t want to speak to me. You were so cute with your blond hair,” to which I replied, “I thought you didn’t want to speak to me. Haha.” She then said, “I gave you hints.” :slight_smile: That was my lack of confidence that screwed things up as a young guy, as it did several times. Unfortunately, the blondness went away and the Norwood reaper has paid some visits. Ironically it seems I’ve gotten more attention when out and about in recent years when out and about as a balding and greying old man, lol.

The other traits you mentioned do matter.

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923

We need probably define of which criminals we’re talking about. Gangs and mafias are ruthless and hard communities, so having a respected position in these is probably often due of other traits we’re discussed.

There’s millions of anecdotes to throw around, and it might be that individual variations play a huge role here. Women I’ve talked about this say vastly different things about what’s attractive and what’s not.

I’m not buying the “nice men lose” claim, since attractive males can be both good or bad. Other perspective about “getting bored to your spouse” is the question how monogamous humans really are by nature?

924

Interesting question to go forward:

What traits men generally see attractive in females?