So this is where I would consider one partner creating framework and the other folding in to it, while “leading” aspects of it.
Like a company CEO doesn’t need to be pushed by an accountant, or shouldn’t. It would be a big problem if so. And the accountant should be enabled to do his job without oversight, and it’s a problem if he doesn’t. But he has a job because the CEO is more broadly “holding” the company and consequently the accountant opportunity to exist to begin with. So if the CEO requires scheduling, he should hire an assistant. But that would be very wrong in a marriage.
Instead, the husband in this case should be performing his duty of providing to create the space housework and whatever else exists in.
But folding in can also be framework creation for one’s self.
Women want to be adored, taken care of, made to feel safe et cetera. And that’s ok. Sometimes you’ll see the “hear me roar” crowd, but it’s like cosplay.
An interesting take. Co-authoring without one author taking lead seems like a book that will never get written. Every relationship and partnership I’ve ever seen, romantic or otherwise, has a mix of qualities from participants that meld in a harmonious way, but there is always a strong partner. This doesn’t mean there isn’t adjustment and compromise along the way. But, one is always leading - which I agree is better than pushing.
My point is that I don’t mind being the leader. But if I am, I want employees who take initative. A partner that is fine with “good enough” does not fulfill that role.
Maybe other women are not like this, but it’s how I am
This doesn’t matter to me. The chances of me actually being with any guy regardless of personality or success is low because I am unwilling to make compromises in other unrelated areas (e.g., live together, participate in ““activities””, deal with another person’s family)
I’m saying that my personal preferences for personality have nothing to do with my gender, but I understand that it might be the case for other women
I think my generation and younger have been brainwashed. Child birth is expensive, like the hospital bill. But raising kids isn’t impossible. My parents didn’t have anything and they did a great job. I had my kids a little later (28) but likewise wasn’t well off. I saved and worked so my wife could stay home when she became mom. Kids need to be loved more than anything, the rest kind of falls into place. People just have to remember that having kids means putting their needs first and shedding some of yourself for them.
I agree with all of this, and it reminds me of a kid my daughter dated twice at different times. We’ll call him Matt, since that’s his name. LOVELY GUY. I would absolutely have supported us keeping him and I always hug him when I see him, which I occasionally do. Anyway, it wasn’t even that he was a pushover, though he was. It was that he couldn’t seem to make any waves at all. “Burger or hot dog, Matt?” “Either is fine.” “I know, but which would you rather, we have plenty of both.” “I don’t care.” And ultimately I’m practically yelling “JUST CHOOSE!” Like, NO ONE GIVES A SHIT WHAT YOU EAT. PICK SOMETHING!
We all loved that guy. Unanimously! Every single family member liked him. But he had to go. He’s recently gotten married and when we were talking about how it’s going (well) he mentioned that they don’t fight and “I don’t think we’ve ever had a fight.” She must be as squishy as he is. And god bless them! I think they’re going to have a really happy marriage. But my daughter would have been walking around picking pieces of him out of her teeth, and that doesn’t feel good to anybody.
So back to there being a spectrum and each of us having to find a match to our own dom/sub strong/weak makeup. My husband and I clash playfully or lightly all the time, and occasionally for real. If he says a hard “no” about stuff concerning which I generally defer (money, house’s mechanical needs…the guy stuff) I fold in, as @Njord puts it. No problem. I think there are arenas where I have the final say, though. I’m not sure at the moment what they are, but if I have a hard “no” I really need him to let it go. It all seems to work out. Unless it doesn’t, as with the kitchen cleanliness, in which case finding a workaround is necessary. (Cleaner situation is going very well! Bitterness over the waterlogged kibble is down to very manageable levels and happiness reigns.)
Most instances of domestic violence include escalation on the victim’s part. Movies always show us a meek, terrified woman and a monstrously violent man, but the reality is most often both partners moving in physically, with her pushing, throwing, or otherwise escalating, and him responding with his own escalation into violence. Fighting over phones is a big one in today’s world. This is just the other end of the spectrum my ultra-mild friend Matt is on.
I think women who are aggressively feminist are wired for conflict, whereas I and @BethB seem to share low-conflict personalities. Presumably, protective masculine men are not drawn to these women, so they wind up with either uncontrolled aggression (matching them in the worst way) or men lacking any spirit at all. And then they wind up with confirmation bias (men are animals or idiots).
Born in 86. Luckily got to come up without cell phones and internet. Well we had dial up, lol.
I have friends who put off kids for years saying they are waiting for the timing to be right. Married couples, who wanted to have the house, the two cars and everything perfect before hand. My advice was, just do it. The timing is never right and always right.
I believe this is a fair assessment. Although my husband and I argue, we rarely if ever actually fight. I prefer not to yell at people and I certainly won’t stand for anyone, including my husband, yelling at me. Most of our disagreements are handled through conversation. To be fair, it’s taken 20 years of marriage (officially 20 years tomorrow) and some marriage counseling to get to that point. I would never classify him as a pushover. Quite the opposite actually. But he is willing to listen and admit when he is wrong. As am I.
Looking at my family unit, we have a fairly typical set-up. We both work full-time. I do most of the cleaning and laundry. He does the majority of cooking and maintenance. I do the bulk of the yard work as I enjoy mowing the lawn. He does all of the auto maintenance. That being said, we both slip into each other’s territory if needed. I will help shingle a roof. He will clean the house if I can’t get to it. I think we find people who compliment our weaknesses and strengths. We are both competent and probably sit pretty close to 50/50 at this point. To give proper credit, when we got together that wasn’t the case. My husband had lived on his own for 7 years and I came straight from my parents house. He didn’t want someone who wasn’t capable of caring for themselves, so he taught me to be independent. It’s the best gift he could have ever given me. I think he is comforted to know that if something happens to him I will be ok. And I find comfort in knowing that I don’t need him because I can’t survive on my own. I need him because his presence makes my life infinitely better. There is a big difference between staying with someone because you don’t have an option and staying with someone because you don’t want another option.
We’ve had this dynamic too. I wanted a wife, not a daughter, and I’ll leave enough behind if I die that she will be ok however I like knowing she’s capable of taking care of herself and our daughter. And I like the example she is setting for our daughter. She does too, but would also be a stay-at-home in a heartbeat. FTR we’ve had the conversation and I would expect the 9-5 hours to be full of homeaking, not crockpot setting and flitting around so her decision was that if she’s going to work she’ll get paid for it. Fine by me.
I also agree with this. We dated for a long time. It let us explore highs and lows with the option to walk, and we didn’t. So we married. I will say marriage has added an extra layer of beneficial commitment. Planning financially here is helpful as well, imo.
As another angle here, if I should die early, I like knowing she’s capable will be able to date and find a new relationship for herself and my daughter with time and discretion on her side vs rushing in to something out of immediate need.
YES! This is exactly how I feel and what underlies (and I suppose completely constitutes) what I call feminism.
My husband is a delight. He’s funny and sweet and smart and strong. And also things that are less optimal. But on the whole, my life is best with him in it. We were talking about Heaven recently, about which I’m uncertain from a religious standpoint, but like to think about along with reincarnation and such, and I was surprised to notice that the thought of going to a Heaven that isn’t just like my life here makes me sad. Which I think speaks well of my choices, lol.
I actually forgot to say, that during the table-pounding moment we’ve gone over several times here, I bellowed, “The only way to get me out of this house on Sunday (for yet another plan) is to have me physically removed. You’ll have to call the US Marshals. I’m not leaving!”
At least you weren’t over the top. This is probably where most men wouldn’t care for me much. If my husband says things like this I usually start to quietly giggle. Which usually leads to him laughing.
@BrickHead I meant to quote this earlier and say that I’m also a big proponent of dating long enough to really assess a prospective partner for character and good fit. I know you’re not for lengthy courtships, but I think the issue comes with people’s failure to cut and run as soon as they see things that will eventually be deal-breakers. They know they don’t like the person’s [fill in the blank] but don’t say “sorry, it won’t work” and wind up married anyway. And then later, divorced.
Cheaper homes don’t really change the underlying issue that most people in their late teens and early 20s don’t have the means to buy anyways. What type of jobs would they be able to have at that age? Are the kids supposed to be taken to college? Should everyone become a plumber?
