Melding Evolution and Creationism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]Aragorn wrote:
ZedThou wrote:
Oh, I see, everyone’s superstition is possible and no judgment should ever be passed on a person’s unwillingness to seriously question irrational - and in most cases indoctrinated - beliefs.

The key phrase you use here is “unwillingness to seriously question irrational…beliefs”

This is tangentially off topic, but that’s because I’m not touching the evolution/creation thing directly with a ten foot pole.

The mistake you make is well pointed out by both Professory X and others. You ASSUME that religious belief is irrational. This is incorrect and arrogant in the extreme. Instead, the PRIMARY QUESTION you should be asking yourself in fact is “is belief in God rational?” Note that I am not specifically talking about the Judeo-Christian religion here, or even whether God actually does exist. I am talking about the rationality of belief. There are a significant number of highly (very highly) respected philosophers who argue that it is in fact rational.

This is an ongoing debate, and one that is by no means one-sided in terms of proponents. Your presumption that this debate has been decided is arrogant. An honest intellectual would admit that although he believes strongly in one way, ongoing debate forces him to admit the possibility, however minute, that he might be WRONG. I certainly admit this, and it is one reason I try to avoid most debate on the subject–I’d prefer to learn and think rather than argue ad nauseum.

Again, I am not taking sides here.

The thing I find the most annoying is the fact that many people who believe as you do fail to even acknowledge the fact that there are other kinds of rational thought and valid knowledge BESIDES biology/biochemistry/empirical sciences. In particular, the discounting of logical philosophical argument and thought. Philosophical thought is just as rational a form of thought as the empirical sciences. In a way, even more so because it gave birth to the established form of empirical sciences. However, it deals mostly with questions that empirical science is unable to directly, finally and/or confidently answer in the final analysis.[/quote]

Good post and nothing to add…but this post commenting on how good that post was.

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This thread has some really great discussions in it.

I don’t believe in a god anymore, nor do I believe in any other magical forces present in the world today. I’ve become a skeptic, and until I physically see something to prove otherwise, I won’t believe.

This thought process of mine is influenced by a lot people ripping others off by telling them certain things in exchange for money or something similar. The world is a nasty place, and someone is always trying to make a quick buck off of someone else.

I wish there was a being out there some where that created everything and watched over us, but I guess to me it just seems too good to be true. I think people have the right to believe whatever they like, as long as they or it doesn’t cause direct or indirect harm to others.

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[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Disclaimer: I didn’t bother to read the whole thread, because I generally don’t like getting sucked into debates like this or the “is religion brain washing” thread. But I’d like to give my 2 cents in a very general way…

I am not taking sides here…

I have noticed a lot of the vitriol that gets thrown in the direction of intellligent design/creationism proponents that basically amounts to a “you can’t be a good scientist if you believe in creationism” opinion. These people tend to castigate others who believe in intelligent design as being stupid and irrational. A prime example, I think, would be Richard Dawkins.

I don’t agree with this and I think those who espouse this view are full of hubris. Many of the greatest scientists the world has ever seen believed in creation (Francis Bacon, da Vinci, etc, etc, etc. The list is long).

In the modern world there are still many very respected scientists (indeed, even those in biochemistry and biology) that hold intelligent design views. We have a couple at our school (a big state school, with excellent and widely respected biology department).

These people are living embodiments that contradict those who say creationists can’t hold rational thought or can’t contribute in any significant way to biology, biochemistry, pharmacology, or related fields.

Belief in intelligent design/creationism does NOT preclude being a good scientist, biological or otherwise, or being rational.

I feel it is beyond false to ostracize ALL people or to belittle people who believe in creation as being irrational, or at the very least harmlessly stupid. To be sure, there are many idiots. And there is a lot of vitriol on the side of many creationists as well. But that does not excuse the hubris that many evolutionists hold towards those who believe intelligent design.

On a similar but semi-unrelated note, I have noticed the same thing happens with many many atheists when talking about those who believe in God. I have the same opinion of them as well.

Can’t we all just get along? :P[/quote]

I agree with most of this post.

I have no problem with people believing in intelligent design, but it clearly should not be taught in a science classroom.

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[quote]ZedThou wrote:
If someone believes in fairies, why not consider them irrational? And hey, why not consider those who do not believe in fairies to be intellectually superiour to those who do?

The preponderance of evidence is overwhelmingly against Creationism, and there is zero evidence for god(s) acting in this world. What am I to think of those who seriously believe in these things? Am I supposed to respect those beliefs? What would you think of someone who actually thought the Greek gods were real? Would you respect that particular belief?[/quote]

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m going to get this book when I get back home next month:

Should be quite interesting.

Here’s the Product Description:

Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought?
Close enough.
[/quote]
Yeah, physicists and biologists are such a bunch of unintelligent fools. Those guys will fall for anything (/sarcasm).

Whereas history shows what a fantastic job religion has done of this. It’s not like any heinous atrocities have been committed in the name of religion.

Yep, non secular countries across the world such as Saudi Arabia and Iran are absolute paradise.

Define irony

Completely useless statement as this is not possible. Nor is it possible to disprove that humans are actually a species of highly intelligent goats that live on a planet vastly different to earth. It is possible that I am actually a goat creature who has been hibernating for the past 22 years and my entire human existence is merely a dream.

For this reason it is not even possible to disprove the assertion that both planet earth and the human race do not even exist and are really just a figment of the overactive imagination of some goat creature.

While it is not possible to disprove the existence of god in a general sense, it is quite possible to raise some serious doubts about the legitimacy of all of the major religions based on how they contradict with real world observations.

Agreed, unless your name is Stephen Hawking.