Matt Kroc Transitions to Janae Kroc

Off Topic
85

Seriously, Does Kroc really have 58" shoulders? I’m telling you, the tailoring alone is going to be expensive.

This has come up before when Aragorn posted it on another thread, but this a really interesting podcast series from This American Life. The Act Two segment is an interview with a person who was born female and started taking T injections to transition to male. He talks about how much T changed the way he thought. If you’ve never listened to it, it’s just fascinating.

A bit of a tangent on Jewbacca’s post -

I agree about how there is a growing intolerance of people with traditional religious beliefs. Some of the more mean-spirited posts I see on social media are from non-religious people mocking people with faith. It seems that when a religion says your actions are not acceptable, some people can’t be content to just leave and find a place where they can be happy. Instead, their impulse is to want to burn it down, and get very critical, or even persecute the people who stay within the religion. I have never really understood this. We have a big religious market place in America. There are lots of choices, unlike some places in the world. Social change is always going to produce some bumps and bruises, but we have to be careful that we don’t trade one kind of intolerance for another. I have no idea what Kroc’s religious beliefs are, so I’m not making any kind of personal statement about them here.

86

Hey Dirk. Thanks for sharing your experience.

87

I don’t really give a shit about any of this garbage, I did however have to unfollow his facebook page today. I mean if I started following it for lifting why would I keep following when now and I’m assuming for the rest of its existence nothing but tranny selfies.

1 Like
88

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I thought the Matt Kroc news was a joke initially. Like a story from the Onion.

Here are my thoughts on the transgender trend:

I think just like there can be aberrations during gestation regarding hearts, brains, etc., so can there be abberations with sex organs. A quick googling told me that 1 in 1,666 babies is born with ambiguous genetalia. So I wonder how many males actually have immature ovaries or a small penis/large clitoris? And how many women have undescended testicles or the like? It’s not really all that far-fetched.

And having a mix of sex organs could most definitely affect one’s hormonal panel, etc. In the past, someone identifying as the opposite sex was labeled as a freak. But the tide of public opinion is changing. And people are getting more brave about “being who they want to be.”

I’m still suffering a bit of cognitive dissonance with this issue, though.[/quote]

It’s demeaning to refer to it as a “trend.” In reality, it’s people coming out of hiding who were there all along, largely because society is becoming less bigoted over time.

This is a question born of genuine curiosity and I’m not trying to call you out or bait you: what specifically is hard about this, in your mind? Do you believe his perspective?
[/quote]

I don’t understand too what is hard in believing someone has a female identity inside, whatever it is biologically in a male body, just as some people have unformed genitalia.

You don’t have to have any opinion or anything, just acknowledge.

89

Some people here are twisting the meaning of intolerance and bigotry. You are intolerant or a bigot when you don’t accept someone for what he is while doing no harm to anyone. Not accepting someone who murder or rape isn’t being intolerant. Being tolerant is letting people do their own thing and be what they are, even if you despised by it and will never have any business with it, because it doesn’t affect you in any bad way.

When someone say he really feels like a women inside and you call him silly instead you are intolerant. This guy clearly overcompensated all his life to try to change what he is, trained all his life, been in the marine and whatnot and now that he is finally trying to live how he is and you are calling him silly. Basically if it doesn’t fit my little ‘’ ‘’ box, it doesn’t exist and it’s silly. That is a huge lack of respect and being a very little person.

90

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Some people here are twisting the meaning of intolerance and bigotry. You are intolerant or a bigot when you don’t accept someone for what he is while doing no harm to anyone. Not accepting someone who murder or rape isn’t being intolerant. Being tolerant is letting people do their own thing and be what they are, even if you despised by it and will never have any business with it, because it doesn’t affect you in any bad way.

[/quote]

some need to spend a little time in a dictionary, and not make up their own definitions of words.

And by some people, I mean you.

You might want to pour over connotation and denotation for awhile, and think as much as you feel.

91

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
We do not fully understand the complex nature of the genes involved, nor how gene expression works and transfers as everyone starts as having two X (female) chromosomes which one then converts over to a Y chromosome.

…

I bring this up because as a general overview, there is a larger amount of male to female (XY back to XX) transformations, then there are female to male (XX to XY) transformations. So the underlying thought is that there is a disproportionately larger amount of the “other” hormone within the base hormone that could cause the person to have the feelings that they do.
[/quote]

Can you cite any references where it was observed that an X (or Y) chromosome changed into a Y (or X) chromosome?
I’ve never heard of this.
I’ve heard of people having Turnerâ??s syndrome (XO), Klinefelterâ??s syndrome (XXY), and the so-called â??supermaleâ?? (XYY.
[/quote]

That’s kinda part of the point. They don’t change. Men don’t start with 2 xs and transgender people cannot change their Dna. Krok putting on a dress doesn’t mean that when he uses his penis to have sex with a woman its lesbian sex. It just isn’t. That factually isn’t reality. At most it’s a make believe sex game.

92

I don’t doubt it when someone says they feel that they don’t identify with the body they were born into. I just don’t understand why anyone going through this would want to publicise this to the whole world, without rightly or wrongly expecting a lot of negative feedback, compared with the perceived benfit of the small number of other individuals that are going through the same thing.

Nobody says someone with anorexia, starving themselves to death and thinking they look beautiful at the same time, is okay. Everyone else sees the disturbing tragedy.Some people will say, they aren’t hurting anyone but themselves they should have the right to do that.

Same again for a severe alcoholic or narcotics addict, who has lost control of every other aspect of their life, and is on a quick path of self destruction.
There are also the rare people who feel like their arms or legs are not really part of them, and take extreme measures like immersing these limbs in ice buckets until they develop frost bite and then the limbs qualify for medical amputation.Is it okay for them to do this? Its their own body? Despite the fact that they will probably need state medical care or living assistance for the rest of their lives.

Okay Matt situation isn’t exactly the same as the scenarios I have mentioned. Potentially he isn’t hurting anyone but his own reputation, and in the future possibly his healthy functioning dick and ball, but it is just plain weird, disturbing.

It seems so many people especially in the first world have feel an emptiness to their existence at some point in their life, and feel the need to make drastic changes to fill the emptiness. Some use narcotics, alcohol, promiscuous sex,or take up an adrenalin filled pastime. I think most people can relate to this on some level, though probably to a much much lesser extent, it might be changing your wardrobe, getting a new style of haircut, or a tattoo.

Its a complicated subject not just for Matt but any person feeling the same kind of thing and many people especially with an emotional investment seem to turn a blind eye to the subject, and indulge an individual rather than taking a reasonable stand.

93

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
So, I am not trying to be a jerk here, but is this “gender transitioning” that seems to be so common today brought on by group-think amongst men? What strikes me is how rarely you see the converse - women transitioning to men. And I am not trying to be a bigger jerk by saying this, but could additives that we use so commonly in everyday things (such as plastics) that are known and proven to reduce testosterone or increase estrogen production, contributing to this cultural shift? It seems strange, that is all, between how quickly it happens and how men seem to be overwhelmingly more moved than women.[/quote]

What Jasmincar said. There are plenty of former gals gone lads but my guess is that the male>female route tends to make bigger headlines; there are a number of ways to explain this, many of them to do with gender roles.[/quote]

I think you’re right here that the media tends to be more fascinated with MTF than FTM trans people.

Population estimates put rate of trans people at around .5% of the population (that was from a recent study done in Massachusetts).

There are certainly more people deciding to transition these days, both from female-to-male and male-to-female. But the numbers are fairly representative on both sides of the spectrum. Back in the 50s when the concept of gender versus sex was invented by sexologist Dr. John Money and sex reassignment surgeries became a thing, was when the first trans women (MTF) started popping up and catching the media’s attention (ie Christine Jorgensen). There have always been both trans men and women, but the medical technologies just weren’t there, and neither was popular media.

What we have been seeing in the past 10 years is improved access to transition technologies, which makes it easier for folks to transition, especially for those living in cities with trans-positive health care providers and LGBTQ health centres.

I’m a phd student in public health and I study access to health care services for transgender people. I am also a FTM trans man and I also have “good gains”.

94

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I thought the Matt Kroc news was a joke initially. Like a story from the Onion.

Here are my thoughts on the transgender trend:

I think just like there can be aberrations during gestation regarding hearts, brains, etc., so can there be abberations with sex organs. A quick googling told me that 1 in 1,666 babies is born with ambiguous genetalia. So I wonder how many males actually have immature ovaries or a small penis/large clitoris? And how many women have undescended testicles or the like? It’s not really all that far-fetched.

And having a mix of sex organs could most definitely affect one’s hormonal panel, etc. In the past, someone identifying as the opposite sex was labeled as a freak. But the tide of public opinion is changing. And people are getting more brave about “being who they want to be.”

I’m still suffering a bit of cognitive dissonance with this issue, though.[/quote]

It’s demeaning to refer to it as a “trend.” In reality, it’s people coming out of hiding who were there all along, largely because society is becoming less bigoted over time.

This is a question born of genuine curiosity and I’m not trying to call you out or bait you: what specifically is hard about this, in your mind? Do you believe his perspective?
[/quote]
Yes, “trend” was a poor choice of words. I apologize for that.

I am a pretty analytical person and, hence, want to try to make sense of why people are transgendered from a logical/scientific perspective, I suppose.

I can’t explain my cognitive dissonance with the issue, really, in a venue such as this. I’ll just say that I am socially very liberal and supportive of alternative lifestyles .

95

PowerPuff, you are welcome.
In the world of sports where one is judged by how Strong, Fast, Agile and Lean a person may be, to be different is looked at as an oddity.
To be anything less than fully musculine is to be called a “fag”, sissy, princess, queer (my favorite and i own it, because it makes others uncomfortable) seems to be the acceptable norm.

It is typically those who do not understand or where never exposed to proper scientific principles and critical thinking that have the hardest time with anything that is out of their normal sphere of influence. We have come a long way in 4000 years but if you need to be reminded:

MattyG35, I will be getting back on to this tomorrow for you, so please be patient.
This is very complex and I would like to do it well and to the best of my abilities.

jasmincar: thank you for the kind words. I do hope that at some point Janae will post in here.
I am sure that Her situation and mine will have some similarities, and many different ones as well.

Remember people, there are 7 billion (7,000,000,000) of us on this little 24,000 mile circumferance planet. Each with a story all their own.
Remember too, that there are more things that make us the SAME, than those little things that make us different.
You may not agree with someones way of living, but it is trying to Understand that will help all of us, more than trying to separate us.

Remember to, that Janae was an Armed Service person. Putting her life out there for the freedoms that “We the People” all enjoy.
A little respect goes a long ways. … …

97

[quote]Beyond Beyond wrote:
I don’t doubt it when someone says they feel that they don’t identify with the body they were born into. I just don’t understand why anyone going through this would want to publicise this to the whole world, without rightly or wrongly expecting a lot of negative feedback, compared with the perceived benfit of the small number of other individuals that are going through the same thing.

Nobody says someone with anorexia, starving themselves to death and thinking they look beautiful at the same time, is okay. Everyone else sees the disturbing tragedy.Some people will say, they aren’t hurting anyone but themselves they should have the right to do that.

Same again for a severe alcoholic or narcotics addict, who has lost control of every other aspect of their life, and is on a quick path of self destruction.
There are also the rare people who feel like their arms or legs are not really part of them, and take extreme measures like immersing these limbs in ice buckets until they develop frost bite and then the limbs qualify for medical amputation.Is it okay for them to do this? Its their own body? Despite the fact that they will probably need state medical care or living assistance for the rest of their lives.

Okay Matt situation isn’t exactly the same as the scenarios I have mentioned. Potentially he isn’t hurting anyone but his own reputation, and in the future possibly his healthy functioning dick and ball, but it is just plain weird, disturbing.

It seems so many people especially in the first world have feel an emptiness to their existence at some point in their life, and feel the need to make drastic changes to fill the emptiness. Some use narcotics, alcohol, promiscuous sex,or take up an adrenalin filled pastime. I think most people can relate to this on some level, though probably to a much much lesser extent, it might be changing your wardrobe, getting a new style of haircut, or a tattoo.

Its a complicated subject not just for Matt but any person feeling the same kind of thing and many people especially with an emotional investment seem to turn a blind eye to the subject, and indulge an individual rather than taking a reasonable stand.
[/quote]

It’s actually very similar to an anorexia and other psychosis, because taking huge amounts of sex hormones will cripple your health just as badly as anorexia. The only difference is that this psychosis is encouraged by a profoundly sick society hell-bent on destroying the biological concept of gender roles.

98

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:

[quote] Jewbacca wrote:
What is intolerant and “phobic” are those who are afraid of the decisions of liked-minded people as myself, who can see this nonsense for a silly choice and whose decisions rest on basic biology and 4,000 years of Judaeo-Christian teachings. [/quote]

Ah, but that is not the choice of which I speak.

I have no idea if the mental illness/delusion/kink whatever Mr. Kroc and you have is a choice or not. I suspect for some, it is. And for some it is very hard and cruel mental illness. It doesn’t matter.

What IS a choice, however, is the decision to give into the delusion or mental illness or whatever it is and pull a dress over his size 58 shoulders.

It is this choice – to give into delusion, that I call silly.

If a person had schizophrenia and the voices in his head told him to go run around naked and taunt Jewish people as “devils” (which happened to me today, actually, or I’d have a better example), we would not celebrate this.

We would (hopefully) get him to a safe place, have him take his meds, and monitor him. In fact, I presume this is what happened after the CP police wrestled the man to the ground.

As stated earlier, the naked man is not a perfect analogy, in that persons with the mental illness of gender confusion are generally not a danger to themselves or others, but the underlying thesis is.

Specifically, just as the world, and the people in it, are not required to ignore reality and pretend the voices the man hears are real, we should not required to accept the self-delusion of gender confused people.

And yet we are called all sorts of names for refusing to accept this delusion.

The treatment for Kroc’s mental illness may be to let him pretend to be a girl and play dress up. I doubt it, but defer to Mr. Kroc and his doctors on this.

But just as I don’t have to accept the naked devil-calling man’s delusions as true, I don’t have to accept Mr. Kroc as anything other than what he is — a man in a dress. A very large man in a dress.

And for people to be offended that I refuse to accept a false reality – well, that’s just silly.
[/quote]

Your identification of all this as “mental illness” that involves “delusion” falls apart if those people feel satisfied / “normal” after transitioning, and their lives then “work” better.

In short, if their belief (“things will fall into place if I am the other sex”) turns out to prove true, it was a functional one, not a mental illness.

A label of mental illness requires that the “symptom” be dysfunctional and negatively interfere with the person’s life in some way.

If the person is MORE psychically integrated after the change, they were hardly “delusional.”

[/quote]

Taking huge amounts of sex hormones to cripple your natural biological functions is in no way a healthy choice and mutilating your sex organs in an attempt to conform to the delusion that one can change their sex is no different than any other psychosis.

Of course they are free to harm themselves since self-ownership is immutable, but for the people around them and in society to reinforce this delusion is exceptionally cruel.

100

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
Remember to, that Janae was an Armed Service person.[/quote]

A Marine, actually.

Meaning that she, more so than Caitlyn Jenner, has earned the right to be called “brave”.

101

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:

[quote] Jewbacca wrote:
What is intolerant and “phobic” are those who are afraid of the decisions of liked-minded people as myself, who can see this nonsense for a silly choice and whose decisions rest on basic biology and 4,000 years of Judaeo-Christian teachings. [/quote]

Ah, but that is not the choice of which I speak.

I have no idea if the mental illness/delusion/kink whatever Mr. Kroc and you have is a choice or not. I suspect for some, it is. And for some it is very hard and cruel mental illness. It doesn’t matter.

What IS a choice, however, is the decision to give into the delusion or mental illness or whatever it is and pull a dress over his size 58 shoulders.

It is this choice – to give into delusion, that I call silly.

If a person had schizophrenia and the voices in his head told him to go run around naked and taunt Jewish people as “devils” (which happened to me today, actually, or I’d have a better example), we would not celebrate this.

We would (hopefully) get him to a safe place, have him take his meds, and monitor him. In fact, I presume this is what happened after the CP police wrestled the man to the ground.

As stated earlier, the naked man is not a perfect analogy, in that persons with the mental illness of gender confusion are generally not a danger to themselves or others, but the underlying thesis is.

Specifically, just as the world, and the people in it, are not required to ignore reality and pretend the voices the man hears are real, we should not required to accept the self-delusion of gender confused people.

And yet we are called all sorts of names for refusing to accept this delusion.

The treatment for Kroc’s mental illness may be to let him pretend to be a girl and play dress up. I doubt it, but defer to Mr. Kroc and his doctors on this.

But just as I don’t have to accept the naked devil-calling man’s delusions as true, I don’t have to accept Mr. Kroc as anything other than what he is — a man in a dress. A very large man in a dress.

And for people to be offended that I refuse to accept a false reality – well, that’s just silly.
[/quote]

Your identification of all this as “mental illness” that involves “delusion” falls apart if those people feel satisfied / “normal” after transitioning, and their lives then “work” better.

In short, if their belief (“things will fall into place if I am the other sex”) turns out to prove true, it was a functional one, not a mental illness.

A label of mental illness requires that the “symptom” be dysfunctional and negatively interfere with the person’s life in some way.

If the person is MORE psychically integrated after the change, they were hardly “delusional.”

[/quote]

Well said my wise old friend.

102

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
MattyG35, I will be getting back on to this tomorrow for you, so please be patient.
This is very complex and I would like to do it well and to the best of my abilities.

[/quote]

K, thanks, I’ll check the thread for it

103

[quote]aeyogi wrote:

Okay, so this is just about semantics.

[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe I spend too much time with lawyers and other professionals where words matter. Maybe it’s my conscious effort to use “big, adult” words around my toddler, endlessly, to try and expand her vocabulary. (That statement is in no way intended to be condescending or compare you to a toddler.)

But the simple fact of the matter is, words matter. And I see a lot of self congratulatory celebration about “how far humanity has come” (plenty of pointing out we haven’t too but) and I guess I’m tired of it. Because if you really take a step back and look at the world with a critical eye, then try and frame any of it in a historical context, we really aren’t any different in our levels of bias, prejudice or anything of the sort, our targets are just different.

And I think it’s important people understand that. So I talk about it.