Matt Kroc Transitions to Janae Kroc

Off Topic
465

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

You see this all the time, and I suspect it’s one of the reasons for Antisemitism. This isn’t my idea, but my son heard this in a lecture last year and I thought it was interesting. Christians came out of Judaism and as they left if behind, they tended to persecute and vilify the people who stayed. Now we often see Atheists, who often rise out of Christian origins, and again tend to criticize or even condemn the people who stay in the religion as being ignorant, close-minded, cruel, judgmental or hardhearted.

      [/quote]

This is similar to what happened to Jews with communism. Jews brought communism to Europe and then eventually gentile communists who were more ruthless and focused kicked Jews out of communist governments. It was sort of like a bitter sweet twist: I bring you an ideology and form of government and society, and then you boot me out of this government and society.

Not all anti-homosexual practices were exclusive to religious belief. By Ancient Germanic law, homosexuals were put to death, usually by drowning. Anglo-Saxon law also had severe penalties.[/quote]

Hey Brick. Thanks. Yeah, I wasn’t really talking about homosexuality, or transgender issues in specific.

I was thinking about more common situations like the religious young man in college who wants to sleep with lots of women without commitment, so he decides to leave his religion, or adopt another less strict version, that won’t make him feel bad about it.

Then he may justify the new lifestyle by telling himself that marriage is just a joke anyway, he’s not hurting anyone, and he never really believed in the religion anyway. Besides, those religious people are so judgmental and close minded. He’s moved past all of that. While he may decide that these new attitudes reflect his true value system, it’s usually better to just admit that the motives might be pretty simple. He likes sleeping with pretty women, and doesn’t really want to be obedient and loyal to something that requires some self-sacrifice, and isn’t popular with his peer group, at least not at the moment. At least I can respect that, because it’s honest.

Humans sometimes engage in some pretty complicated intellectual maneuvers to try to feel like we’re in the right. I’m not immune to this, but I do try to be a little bit introspective about my motives. It’s better to be honest with yourself, right?

This kind of thing overflows in to the strawman type arguments you were talking about.

467

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Is a person who has had a limb amputated and still experiences “phantom pain” delusional?
[/quote]

Yes, they are delusional. "[/quote]

Wow.

Ok, you either aren’t as good at English as I thought, or you need a basic psychology class.

If this is your view, discussion with you is going to be fruitless.[/quote]

Well, based on my extremely limited knowledge, I would think a phantom limb would fall more under the category of a tactile hallucination (i.e. false sensory input) than a delusion (i.e. persistent false belief). The person knows their limb is gone, they just still feel it. In either case, the objective reality is that the limb is not there.

That being said, it seems to me that JB does kind of have a point in this context in that it is not especially practical for that person to act as though the limb is still present, nor is it especially compassionate others to agree that it is still present. It’s not necessarily a great analogy for a transgender person, but I didn’t choose the comparison.

468

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Standing up and doing what is right, regardless of personal implications is required of all persons.
[/quote]

Perhaps doing what is right is withholding judgment about who is “mentally ill,” “delusional,” or - to use your favorite word - “wrong,” when you are a simple lay person and experts who’ve devoted years to understanding an issue have not yet reached a consensus.

Is a person who has had a limb amputated and still experiences “phantom pain” delusional? Does a dyslexic who sees letters backwards qualify as “mentally ill?” Is a person who experiences abnormal thoughts because of a serious hormonal problem “a nut?”

Obviously, transgender folks suffer from sort of a disorder. If you have some objective proof that that disorder is nothing more than a garden variety delusion, please, do share it. Perhaps I and others are just suffering from a lack of knowledge.

If you don’t, you might want to consider letting a few more colors into that spectrum of yours.

Appropriate treatment of any disorder depends heavily on its cause. Unless you somehow know what causes transgenderism, how about allowing for a little bit of doubt about how best to treat it? You know, a little, “I could be wrong…” or “Maybe in some cases…”

Not for nothing, but, while I know very little about your religion, I think it’s sad that your version seems to lack the compassion that our new friend’s apparently possesses.

[/quote]

With all the considerable respect I bear toward you, I take some issue with this statement.

I fail to see where JB’s view lacks compassion. It lacks permissiveness, perhaps and definitely seems to me to require more rigor and strict adherrance than DB’s more inclusive view would appear to. However, I’m not certain that permissiveness and compassion are synonymous.

That said, I don’t really see where JB has said Kroc’s actions are wrong. He did say that he is unable to see Kroc as a woman as opposed to a dude in a dress. Given that Kroc still shows up to work as “Matt” from time to time and has a penis which he uses to have sex with women, this is perhaps not a terribly outlandish stance for a person to take. It is, however, completely unacceptable in today’s climate.

I would also like to point out that in less than 30 posts our new friend stated that he was ashamed to be from the same state as JB, or some such. For someone who is preaching being compassionate and non-judgemental, that’s jumping to a pretty quick negative conclusion about someone whom I expect you, I and most people on these boards can agree is a pretty top quality human being. This conclusion seems to be based largely on a single dispute over religious differences. I guess tolerance and inclusivity are situational.

Lets also not forget that it was precisely the moral certainty and faith you’re finding so off putting that JB to offer, I believe genuinely, to adopt sight unseen the unborn child of a t-nationer who was contemplating abortion for an unwanted pregnancy. As far as acts that lack compassion go, that doesn’t make my list. In fact, given JB’s history with his first wife, the fact that his heart is filled with anything other than vengance and hate is, to my mind, a small miracle.

I’m not here to blow sunshine up the man’s butt, I don’t even necessarily agree with him. However just because he refuses to adopt more liberal views that more people would find palateable in the current social climate and holds to and acts upon his convictions doesn’t make him a bigotted anachronism either.

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you my friend. I just think your own bias may be clouding your view of JB’s position at least as much as you believe his bias is clouding his view of Kroc. Of course, this is all just my opinion, and I could be wrong :wink:

470

[quote]batman730 wrote:
…it is not especially practical for that person to act as though the limb is still present, nor is it especially compassionate others to agree that it is still present. [/quote]

Ironically, the most effective treatment for phantom limb pain is to trick the mind into believing that the limb is still present.

471

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
…it is not especially practical for that person to act as though the limb is still present, nor is it especially compassionate others to agree that it is still present. [/quote]

Ironically, the most effective treatment for phantom limb pain is to trick the mind into believing that the limb is still present.

[/quote]

Ironic indeed, lol. I actually felt some kind of a twinge of memory about that mirror box thing as I was typing but couldn’t recall the specifics.

472

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Is a person who has had a limb amputated and still experiences “phantom pain” delusional?
[/quote]

Yes, they are delusional. "[/quote]

Wow.

Ok, you either aren’t as good at English as I thought, or you need a basic psychology class.

If this is your view, discussion with you is going to be fruitless.[/quote]

Well, based on my extremely limited knowledge, I would think a phantom limb would fall more under the category of a tactile hallucination (i.e. false sensory input) than a delusion (i.e. persistent false belief). The person knows their limb is gone, they just still feel it. In either case, the objective reality is that the limb is not there.

That being said, it seems to me that JB does kind of have a point in this context in that it is not especially practical for that person to act as though the limb is still present, nor is it especially compassionate others to agree that it is still present. It’s not necessarily a great analogy for a transgender person, but I didn’t choose the comparison.[/quote]

Hey Batman - always nice to hear from you.

First, you are right: phantom pain is not a “delusion,” and well, I don’t mean to be mean about it, but that is just more evidence that JB is pontificating about things he knows little about.
That black/white, “I KNOW the answers!” attitude is precisely the issue here, IMO.

Now, let’s continue the comparison. If we could surgically replace that lost limb, we most certainly would. Why? Well, yes, because he had it to start with. But it’s not JUST that. We want to replace it because we know that he will be happier, more functional, and live a life that better integrates his hopes and plans with his real-life achievements. And we KNOW what the problem is: he doesn’t have a limb where one should be.

OK, so let’s turn to a transgender person. If we know that what “makes” him transgender is some simple delusion, hell, medicate his ass and get him into therapy. That only makes sense.

But what if it is found that his brain has, for some unknown reason, developed in the way a woman’s brain develops, and neurologically he IS a woman? What if the ability to become a woman would make HIM happier, more functional, and able to live a life that better integrates his hopes and plans with his real-life achievements? What if he is not “crazy,” but has a physical, physiological conflict going on between his brain and his body?

Should such a person have the right to choose to “change bodies?” Would they be wise to do so? Should other people have a say in such a decision?

I would argue that reasonable people might still disagree in this case. But inappropriately throwing words like “delusional” and “mentally ill” around, and rejecting the legitimacy of the person’s perspective and experiences out of hand when the person has a legitimate biological disorder is inaccurate, unhelpful and destructive. Do you really think that people with say, epilepsy, didn’t used to be considered mentally ill, and treated poorly for the reason?

So again, I am NOT arguing in support of transgenderism or such surgeries. I AM arguing that we don’t know enough about the etiology or the effective treatment of the disorder to be making black and white, blanket, condemning statements about transgender people. I will add that unlike JB, I am the first to admit that I may have a knowledge deficiency here, and if so, I’d welcome someone enlightening me.

[/quote]

Well, that all sounds reasonable enough.

473

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Is a person who has had a limb amputated and still experiences “phantom pain” delusional?
[/quote]

Yes, they are delusional. "[/quote]

Wow.

Ok, you either aren’t as good at English as I thought, or you need a basic psychology class.

If this is your view, discussion with you is going to be fruitless.[/quote]

Well, based on my extremely limited knowledge, I would think a phantom limb would fall more under the category of a tactile hallucination (i.e. false sensory input) than a delusion (i.e. persistent false belief). The person knows their limb is gone, they just still feel it. In either case, the objective reality is that the limb is not there.

That being said, it seems to me that JB does kind of have a point in this context in that it is not especially practical for that person to act as though the limb is still present, nor is it especially compassionate others to agree that it is still present. It’s not necessarily a great analogy for a transgender person, but I didn’t choose the comparison.[/quote]

Hey Batman - always nice to hear from you.

First, you are right: phantom pain is not a “delusion,” and well, I don’t mean to be mean about it, but that is just more evidence that JB is pontificating about things he knows little about.
That black/white, “I KNOW the answers!” attitude is precisely the issue here, IMO.

Now, let’s continue the comparison. If we could surgically replace that lost limb, we most certainly would. Why? Well, yes, because he had it to start with. But it’s not JUST that. We want to replace it because we know that he will be happier, more functional, and live a life that better integrates his hopes and plans with his real-life achievements. And we KNOW what the problem is: he doesn’t have a limb where one should be.

OK, so let’s turn to a transgender person. If we know that what “makes” him transgender is some simple delusion, hell, medicate his ass and get him into therapy. That only makes sense.

But what if it is found that his brain has, for some unknown reason, developed in the way a woman’s brain develops, and neurologically he IS a woman? What if the ability to become a woman would make HIM happier, more functional, and able to live a life that better integrates his hopes and plans with his real-life achievements? What if he is not “crazy,” but has a physical, physiological conflict going on between his brain and his body?

Should such a person have the right to choose to “change bodies?” Would they be wise to do so? Should other people have a say in such a decision?

I would argue that reasonable people might still disagree in this case. But inappropriately throwing words like “delusional” and “mentally ill” around, and rejecting the legitimacy of the person’s perspective and experiences out of hand when the person has a legitimate biological disorder is inaccurate, unhelpful and destructive. Do you really think that people with say, epilepsy, didn’t used to be considered mentally ill, and treated poorly for the reason?

So again, I am NOT arguing in support of transgenderism or such surgeries. I AM arguing that we don’t know enough about the etiology or the effective treatment of the disorder to be making black and white, blanket, condemning statements about transgender people. I will add that unlike JB, I am the first to admit that I may have a knowledge deficiency here, and if so, I’d welcome someone enlightening me.

[/quote]

But they kill themselves.

They deliver the final verdict, literally, with their own hands.

That is not good.

Admittedly, I do have a problem with holding up LIFE ITSELF as the ultimate goal or value, but still, if they get what they want, they cannot take it.

475

At the end of the day, who cares? Let people do what they want. This sort of thing has zero impact on most people’s lives yet the debate surrounding it is immense (just look at this thread).

476

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but it does seem like the jury is still out, way out, on whether gender reassignment is really the necessary “cure” for whatever it is ails transgender folks.

I’d like to see a more recent article, but I doubt the results have changed too much over the past 10 years, and this is certainly not some right-wing rag.

[i]There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham’s aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.[/i]

477

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

I fail to see where JB’s view lacks compassion.
[/quote]

To me, throwing labels like “delusional” and “mentally ill” on a whole class of people without a solid basis to do so is not a very compassionate thing to do. But fine, I don’t feel so strongly about that. (shrug)

Frankly, I’m more struck by the fact that you have focused so heavily (here and in subsequent paragraphs) on that one final throw-away sentence ("Not for nothing, I said) in a post that was otherwise about a totally different thing. Why is that?

The respect between us is mutual, so I don’t mean this in a snarky way, but have you read the whole thread?

I have specifically said that my comments were NOT about Kroc, because I don’t know enough about him to say anything.

And as for what is “acceptable in today’s climate,” that has NOTHING to do with anything I’ve written here. My driving force is a dislike of simplistic, uninformed pronouncements that are unfair and could hurt others. If it’s been proven true, say it! I hate PC bullshit as much as the next guy. But don’t act like you have all the answers wrapped up in a neat package when you apparently don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

Fair enough.

I have no investment in defending the guy.

Yep, that same moral certainty that led him to believe that he had the right to profoundly interfere – wholly uninvited and with no advance warning – into the very personal life of another T-nationer.

“Moral certainty” is a double-edged sword, my friend.

Look, I generally have a lot of respect for JB, and generally agree that he is “a pretty top quality human being,” but no one is a saint, and when he fucks around in other people’s lives or pontificates on things he clearly has limited knowledge about, he deserves to be called on it.

Honestly, where do you and he get this stuff from? You think my posts are about “liberal views” and “the current social climate?” About him being an “anachronism?”

I don’t even know how else to say this…

I have chosen to post here because he has made uninformed, unproven statements that stigmatize others as though they are God’s own truth.

Which bias is that that I have? The belief that he should have some rudimentary understanding of mental illness and it’s basic terminology before he makes pronouncements? The belief that he should not act as though he knows things with certainty when the science is far from settled? The belief that a problem this profound and complicated deserves to be approached in a nuanced and thoughtful way? If you mean one of those, then mea culpa, my friend. But other than those, I have no bias, no horse in the race, no ax to grind.

Finally, I don’t see you as picking a fight. I do sort of wonder why you feel the need to defend JB, but I like and respect you, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

[/quote]

You know, upon further consideration I have to concede that what I posted doesn’t really address your point very well at all and was not particularly well thought out. I apologize.

I’m a little stuck right now on the idea that the advancement of certain more recently recognized freedoms is coming at the expense of other, longer standing freedoms. It appears to be acceptable and even laudable to ridicule and condemn a religious person over their faith in way that it would be completely unacceptable if you to treat someone in the LBGTQ community.

This strikes me as profoundly unjust. I erroneously perceived your criticism of JB as an extension of this. It was not so much JB I was defending as the right to hold to the values he espouses, if one so chooses. Faith is a two edged sword, but it seems to me that we are in an awful rush to throw the baby out wit the bath water. This is an area where I experience a certain amount of internal conflict in my own life and I suppose the emotion around that colours my thinking at times. In other words, my own bias clouded my perception of what was actually being said. As a result I went off half cocked and ended up not making a tremendous amount of sense. Go figure :wink:

I wholeheartedly agree that whatever is going on with transgender people is an extremely complex issue about which very little is known. The experts have reached no meaningful consensus that I can see, so I sure as hell have no idea.

In the future I will endeavour to more fully engage my brain before I begin to type. Cheers, my friend.

Edited for typos

478

[quote]batman730 wrote:

I’m a little stuck right now on the idea that the advancement of certain more recently recgnized freedoms is coming at the expense of other, longer standing freedoms. It appears to be acceptable and even laudable to ridicule and condemn a religious person over their faith in way that it would be completely unacceptable if you to treat someone in the LBGTQ community.
ndeavour to more fully engage my brain before I begin to type. Cheers, my friend.[/quote]

This pisses me off too, and even because of the lack of respect, but not necessarily for a specific person.

Those are beliefs that were held for hundreds if not thousands of years and in the case of Judaism was debated and rehashed hundreds of times, in detail, but a college kid that has taken two ethics courses has an informed opinion.

Dude, you know shite.

Let us find out who is in college right now and has taken two ethics courses.

482

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Is a person who has had a limb amputated and still experiences “phantom pain” delusional?
[/quote]

Yes, they are delusional. "[/quote]

Wow.

Ok, you either aren’t as good at English as I thought, or you need a basic psychology class.

If this is your view, discussion with you is going to be fruitless.[/quote]

Well, based on my extremely limited knowledge, I would think a phantom limb would fall more under the category of a tactile hallucination (i.e. false sensory input) than a delusion (i.e. persistent false belief). The person knows their limb is gone, they just still feel it. In either case, the objective reality is that the limb is not there.

That being said, it seems to me that JB does kind of have a point in this context in that it is not especially practical for that person to act as though the limb is still present, nor is it especially compassionate others to agree that it is still present. It’s not necessarily a great analogy for a transgender person, but I didn’t choose the comparison.[/quote]

Hey Batman - always nice to hear from you.

First, you are right: phantom pain is not a “delusion,” and well, I don’t mean to be mean about it, but that is just more evidence that JB is pontificating about things he knows little about.
That black/white, “I KNOW the answers!” attitude is precisely the issue here, IMO.

Now, let’s continue the comparison. If we could surgically replace that lost limb, we most certainly would. Why? Well, yes, because he had it to start with. But it’s not JUST that. We want to replace it because we know that he will be happier, more functional, and live a life that better integrates his hopes and plans with his real-life achievements. And we KNOW what the problem is: he doesn’t have a limb where one should be.

OK, so let’s turn to a transgender person. If we know that what “makes” him transgender is some simple delusion, hell, medicate his ass and get him into therapy. That only makes sense.

But what if it is found that his brain has, for some unknown reason, developed in the way a woman’s brain develops, and neurologically he IS a woman? What if the ability to become a woman would make HIM happier, more functional, and able to live a life that better integrates his hopes and plans with his real-life achievements? What if he is not “crazy,” but has a physical, physiological conflict going on between his brain and his body?

Should such a person have the right to choose to “change bodies?” Would they be wise to do so? Should other people have a say in such a decision?

I would argue that reasonable people might still disagree in this case. But inappropriately throwing words like “delusional” and “mentally ill” around, and rejecting the legitimacy of the person’s perspective and experiences out of hand when the person has a legitimate biological disorder is inaccurate, unhelpful and destructive. Do you really think that people with say, epilepsy, didn’t used to be considered mentally ill, and treated poorly for the reason?

So again, I am NOT arguing in support of transgenderism or such surgeries. I AM arguing that we don’t know enough about the etiology or the effective treatment of the disorder to be making black and white, blanket, condemning statements about transgender people. I will add that unlike JB, I am the first to admit that I may have a knowledge deficiency here, and if so, I’d welcome someone enlightening me.

[/quote]

But they kill themselves.

They deliver the final verdict, literally, with their own hands.

That is not good.

[/quote]

All of them?

No good results?[/quote]

Maybe?

However, if I know that whatever percentage will off themselves whereas otherwise they would not?

484

Janae Kroc is pretty fucking hot.