Matt Kroc Transitions to Janae Kroc

Off Topic
445

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]DoBear wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

LOL.

So, even some members of JB’s tribe disagree with his reading of this issue.

Yet, it’s a black and white thing?

Again, L-O-L.

[/quote]

It’s one of the things I love about my religion, the first thing you learn is that there are 70 aspects to everything you can imagine.

This specific Rabbi made a number of Halachic (Jewish Law) decisions which were based on “if possible, find the way to interpret the law in a manner that lets people not sin if it is something that is beyond their control” and before someone says “what if someone has blood-lust?” we are taught that he/ she should then become a surgeon or ritual meat slaughterer.
Why do I bring this up? Because for all intents and purposes, transgenders who are followed by a psychologist/ psychiatrist and who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body can’t do anything about it besides hormone therapy and surgeries. Why turn them into sinners if there’s a more lenient way to interpret the law?
And I truly believe that this outlook on life is much healthier, and much more loving (I believe that that is the basic tenet of Christianity) than anything else.
Like I said, I normally don’t enter into these discussions, but I certainly don’t want people to think that JB is the only true representative of Judaism.
[/quote]

Good luck convincing JB.

[/quote]

Yeah, a guy who claims to be an Orthodox Jew and yet is busy on his computer on Shabbat is a real shining example of observant Judaism.

But they are plenty of Jewish kooks out there. For example, the NKs who sit with Farrakhan and the Iranian regime and change “death to Israel.” I don’t doubt you can find someone who went to eBay, bought himself a Rabbi outfit, and whispers lies to people because that’s what they want to hear. He probably makes a good living doing it, too.

What I have expressed is generic Orthodox Judaism beliefs, shared by 99.9999% of observant Jewish people.

446

[quote]DoBear wrote:

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
So Sunday morning musings for you all:

Came across a video that made me think a little deeper into the whole body dysphoria issue.
Most Transgender people feel as if they where born into the wrong body, can we agree on this ? ok.

But this video discussed how we (myself, Janae Marie et al) may not look at being born into the wrong body,
so much as this is the great body we built for ourselves, and we where just born with the wrong plumbing.

Do we condemn women athletes that have built phenominal bodies for being lesbian ?
If not, then we do we condemn male athletes for who they are attracted to ?
Is that not a double standard ?

It is easy to say “god said it, i believe it, that end it” than to actually sit down and critically read and think about
the science of all of this. … …

Anyway…StormTRUMPER on ![/quote]

I took the night to think about the best way to respond to what you wrote. My religion is a large part of who I am. I believe that most people who identify with a religion of any kind feel this way but I don’t want to speak for others. Since my religion is such a large part of who I am, it greatly influences my manner of thinking and seeing the world. Asking me to disregard this is as unfair and as unrealistic as me asking you to disregard who you truly feel you are on the inside - a woman.

Please accept my apologies for people who use God to hate others or even not to accept them. I believe it comes from not enough knowledge about the basic tenets of their religion.
Let’s try to accept our different perspectives and work to make them work together. I believe that is a better solution.
[/quote]

Please, enough with the straw men.

447

To DoBear and JewBacca:

what was meant by the “god” reference are towards those people who have a closed mind about things,
not necessarily towards any religion. It just seems that those who are more scientifically inclined tend to
have a much more open and inquisitive mind then those brought up with a religion first and science second.

I do hold Jewbacca in the highest of regard, do not doubt that for a minute.

Anyone keep up with the westborough baptists actually siding with LGBTQ on the whole Davis issue…

Bwahahaha, shit this stuff is getting even more bizarre than even I could have ever imagined !

448

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]DoBear wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

LOL.

So, even some members of JB’s tribe disagree with his reading of this issue.

Yet, it’s a black and white thing?

Again, L-O-L.

[/quote]

It’s one of the things I love about my religion, the first thing you learn is that there are 70 aspects to everything you can imagine.

This specific Rabbi made a number of Halachic (Jewish Law) decisions which were based on “if possible, find the way to interpret the law in a manner that lets people not sin if it is something that is beyond their control” and before someone says “what if someone has blood-lust?” we are taught that he/ she should then become a surgeon or ritual meat slaughterer.
Why do I bring this up? Because for all intents and purposes, transgenders who are followed by a psychologist/ psychiatrist and who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body can’t do anything about it besides hormone therapy and surgeries. Why turn them into sinners if there’s a more lenient way to interpret the law?
And I truly believe that this outlook on life is much healthier, and much more loving (I believe that that is the basic tenet of Christianity) than anything else.
Like I said, I normally don’t enter into these discussions, but I certainly don’t want people to think that JB is the only true representative of Judaism.
[/quote]

Good luck convincing JB.

[/quote]

Yeah, a guy who claims to be an Orthodox Jew and yet is busy on his computer on Shabbat is a real shining example of observant Judaism.

But they are plenty of Jewish kooks out there. For example, the NKs who sit with Farrakhan and the Iranian regime and change “death to Israel.” I don’t doubt you can find someone who went to eBay, bought himself a Rabbi outfit, and whispers lies to people because that’s what they want to hear. He probably makes a good living doing it, too.

What I have expressed is generic Orthodox Judaism beliefs, shared by 99.9999% of observant Jewish people.
[/quote]

  1. I never claimed to be Orthodox now. I said I grew up in an Orthodox family.
  2. I suggest you research the Rabbi I am talking about before you disparage him. You can then say you disagree but claiming he “bought” his title is an absolute disgrace. A quick google search will teach you about this man.
449

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]DoBear wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

LOL.

So, even some members of JB’s tribe disagree with his reading of this issue.

Yet, it’s a black and white thing?

Again, L-O-L.

[/quote]

It’s one of the things I love about my religion, the first thing you learn is that there are 70 aspects to everything you can imagine.

This specific Rabbi made a number of Halachic (Jewish Law) decisions which were based on “if possible, find the way to interpret the law in a manner that lets people not sin if it is something that is beyond their control” and before someone says “what if someone has blood-lust?” we are taught that he/ she should then become a surgeon or ritual meat slaughterer.
Why do I bring this up? Because for all intents and purposes, transgenders who are followed by a psychologist/ psychiatrist and who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body can’t do anything about it besides hormone therapy and surgeries. Why turn them into sinners if there’s a more lenient way to interpret the law?
And I truly believe that this outlook on life is much healthier, and much more loving (I believe that that is the basic tenet of Christianity) than anything else.
Like I said, I normally don’t enter into these discussions, but I certainly don’t want people to think that JB is the only true representative of Judaism.
[/quote]

Good luck convincing JB.

[/quote]

Yeah, a guy who claims to be an Orthodox Jew and yet is busy on his computer on Shabbat is a real shining example of observant Judaism.

But they are plenty of Jewish kooks out there. For example, the NKs who sit with Farrakhan and the Iranian regime and change “death to Israel.” I don’t doubt you can find someone who went to eBay, bought himself a Rabbi outfit, and whispers lies to people because that’s what they want to hear. He probably makes a good living doing it, too.

What I have expressed is generic Orthodox Judaism beliefs, shared by 99.9999% of observant Jewish people.
[/quote]

You know what I decided to help you with your research. I’m sorry but what you wrote is absolute Lashon Hara and I am ashamed to say that I am from the same nation as you. Do Your Research. It takes 5 minutes and at least you won’t seem like a hater for no reason. You can say you don’t agree with him. But I am appalled that you seem to forget that Yom Kippur forgives all sins between God and you but for sins between one man and another (men and women before I get shit for this) you must ask from the person forgiveness and Yom Kippur does nothing. Or have you forgotten? It’s only in 2 weeks to remind you… As an Orthodox Jew you should really be more careful…

  1. Link for the Hebrew page on wikipedia אליעזר יהודה ולדנברג – ויקיפדיה

  2. Link for the English page on wikipedia
    Eliezer Waldenberg - Wikipedia

450

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]DoBear wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

LOL.

So, even some members of JB’s tribe disagree with his reading of this issue.

Yet, it’s a black and white thing?

Again, L-O-L.

[/quote]

It’s one of the things I love about my religion, the first thing you learn is that there are 70 aspects to everything you can imagine.

This specific Rabbi made a number of Halachic (Jewish Law) decisions which were based on “if possible, find the way to interpret the law in a manner that lets people not sin if it is something that is beyond their control” and before someone says “what if someone has blood-lust?” we are taught that he/ she should then become a surgeon or ritual meat slaughterer.
Why do I bring this up? Because for all intents and purposes, transgenders who are followed by a psychologist/ psychiatrist and who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body can’t do anything about it besides hormone therapy and surgeries. Why turn them into sinners if there’s a more lenient way to interpret the law?
And I truly believe that this outlook on life is much healthier, and much more loving (I believe that that is the basic tenet of Christianity) than anything else.
Like I said, I normally don’t enter into these discussions, but I certainly don’t want people to think that JB is the only true representative of Judaism.
[/quote]

Good luck convincing JB.

[/quote]

Yeah, a guy who claims to be an Orthodox Jew and yet is busy on his computer on Shabbat is a real shining example of observant Judaism.

But they are plenty of Jewish kooks out there. For example, the NKs who sit with Farrakhan and the Iranian regime and change “death to Israel.” I don’t doubt you can find someone who went to eBay, bought himself a Rabbi outfit, and whispers lies to people because that’s what they want to hear. He probably makes a good living doing it, too.

What I have expressed is generic Orthodox Judaism beliefs, shared by 99.9999% of observant Jewish people.
[/quote]

Btw, I won’t defend my not being Orthodox (though you can’t know if it was Shabbat or not since you don’t know where in the world I was when I wrote that but I understand you judge easily). But in regards to being a good Jew, I will remind you that the first thing we are taught is that Dereckh Eretz Kadma LaTora. And in English - Being a good person needs to be achieved before being observant.

Between God and me, no one should judge lest they be judged first. But I assure you that I try not to have to ask forgiveness from to many people by the time Yom Kippur comes around. And I do that by trying to be a good person. As a Jew and Israeli you should know we are hated by most people. Guess what doesn’t help? Showing that you disrespect people who aren’t harming people. That definitely does not help.

And don’t worry… I’m not one of the lovey dovey leftists when I need to vote. But transgenders aren’t killing and murdering my friends and family. They are just people who don’t feel comfortable with themselves as they were born and are taking care of that. And some great Rabbis (I’ll send you their phone numbers if you want) who are well known and well respected will tell you that disrespecting them and not respecting them the way you have done on this forum is 1) uncalled for 2) against the basic beliefs of Judaism 3) it’s not black and white - it’s grey.

451

[quote]DoBear wrote:

Please accept my apologies for people who use God to hate others or even not to accept them. I believe it comes from not enough knowledge about the basic tenets of their religion. [/quote]

This is a common and damned annoying straw man statement because it implies that because someone doesn’t accept someone else’s ways it means they “hate” them. I know or know of quite a few (or a lot) people whose ways and behaviors I cannot stand but I do not hate them, nor do I want to “bash” them or make their lives miserable!

[quote]

Let’s try to accept our different perspectives and work to make them work together. [/quote]

As grown adults we don’t have to accept everyone’s perspective–especially if we see it put into action as being harmful, perverse, offensive, or even plain irritating–and we are allowed to dislike whoever we damn please. This does NOT mean that it is acceptable for people to mistreat (“bash” or whatever) others in a civilized society.

So exactly where do we draw the line on very important matters such as sexuality and the institutions associated with it?

452

[quote]DoBear wrote:

You know what I decided to help you with your research. I’m sorry but what you wrote is absolute Lashon Hara and I am ashamed to say that I am from the same nation as you. Do Your Research.

[/quote]

Sure, here is the ruling. As stated about 20 posts ago, it has zero in common with voluntary transsexualism, and deals with a child born a hermaphrodite.

http://www.starways.net/beth/tzitz.html

Rabbi Waldenberg begins by noting that the fact that there were no male organs inside the infant’s body is irrelevant. "The external sexual organs of the newborn in question, as you have described, appear as those of a female, and it has no external indications of male organs. Only the special examinations [gene testing] showed that male cells were present. And therefore, in my opinion, even if we were to leave it as it is, it would have the status of a female, “since the external organs which can be seen by the naked eye are the determinant in Jewish law.”

453

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]DoBear wrote:

Please accept my apologies for people who use G-d to hate others or even not to accept them. I believe it comes from not enough knowledge about the basic tenets of their religion. [/quote]

This is a common and damned annoying straw man statement because it implies that because someone doesn’t accept someone else’s ways it means they “hate” them. I know or know of quite a few (or a lot) people whose ways and behaviors I cannot stand but I do not hate them, nor do I want to “bash” them or make their lives miserable!

[/quote]

This.

I could say those who exacerbate a person’s mental illness by playing along with their delusion are the hateful ones, because they cave to political and social pressure to play along, even though what they are doing is ultimately harmful to the person with the delusion.

Standing up and doing what is right, regardless of personal implications is required of all persons.

454

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoBear wrote:

You know what I decided to help you with your research. I’m sorry but what you wrote is absolute Lashon Hara and I am ashamed to say that I am from the same nation as you. Do Your Research.

[/quote]

Sure, here is the ruling. As stated about 20 posts ago, it has zero in common with voluntary transsexualism, and deals with a child born a hermaphrodite.

http://www.starways.net/beth/tzitz.html

Rabbi Waldenberg begins by noting that the fact that there were no male organs inside the infant’s body is irrelevant. "The external sexual organs of the newborn in question, as you have described, appear as those of a female, and it has no external indications of male organs. Only the special examinations [gene testing] showed that male cells were present. And therefore, in my opinion, even if we were to leave it as it is, it would have the status of a female, “since the external organs which can be seen by the naked eye are the determinant in Jewish law.”[/quote]

In fact, just to pour things on, your chosen Rabbi seems to forbid plastic surgery, making breast implants, etc, a no-go.

Seriously, do more than just read Wikipedia next time.

455

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoBear wrote:

You know what I decided to help you with your research. I’m sorry but what you wrote is absolute Lashon Hara and I am ashamed to say that I am from the same nation as you. Do Your Research.

[/quote]

Sure, here is the ruling. As stated about 20 posts ago, it has zero in common with voluntary transsexualism, and deals with a child born a hermaphrodite.

http://www.starways.net/beth/tzitz.html

Rabbi Waldenberg begins by noting that the fact that there were no male organs inside the infant’s body is irrelevant. "The external sexual organs of the newborn in question, as you have described, appear as those of a female, and it has no external indications of male organs. Only the special examinations [gene testing] showed that male cells were present. And therefore, in my opinion, even if we were to leave it as it is, it would have the status of a female, “since the external organs which can be seen by the naked eye are the determinant in Jewish law.”[/quote]

In fact, just to pour things on, your chosen Rabbi seems to forbid plastic surgery, making breast implants, etc, a no-go.

Seriously, do more than just read Wikipedia next time.
[/quote]

Wait, so you mean “quick google search” won’t make me conversant in the intricacies of Jewish Law? Who knew?

457

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Is a person who has had a limb amputated and still experiences “phantom pain” delusional?
[/quote]

Yes, they are delusional. And the treatment is certainly not to tell them to walk without a limb.

Yes, he or she does have a mental disorder. And the treatment is not to pretend “d” is “b” but to teach them to overcome the disorder. In fact, in full disclose, not only did I suffer from dyslexia as a child (and now, to a degree), but 50% of my daughters did, too. It was made worse, too, because English is L-R, while Hebrew is R-L. But we overcame it with help, perseverance, and G-d. We did not expect people to accept our incorrect letters.

====

In all such circumstances, I don’t doubt the problems are very real, unfortunate, and the person who is so affected needs help. Find one post to the contrary.

Where we part is I believe you (not “you” but proverbial “you”) are cruel and unfeeling for refusing to help the person remedy the mental disorder because it is socially easier to cave to PC nonsense and “pretend the limb that is there is not.”

458

[quote]Chushin wrote:
"

Not for nothing, but, while I know very little about your religion, I think it’s sad that your version seems to lack the compassion that our new friend’s apparently possesses.

[/quote]

I don’t know if it would be correct to consider it a “version” of Judaism, but rather it being a practice of it as laid out since the old days. If I recall correctly, what’s stated in Leviticus, the third of the five book of the Torah, is the penalty for homosexuals being stoning to death. (I am Jewish ethnically, not religiously.)

459

Since we’re on a religious tangent -

There is a tendency for people who leave a traditional religious background, or who adopt some less orthodox version of that religion, to believe that they are more evolved, or have made a positive move in adopting their new, often less demanding path.

We all like to feel like we’re doing the right thing or the smart thing, so when someone adopts a less orthodox path, they tend to criticize where they came from. How else are we to feel good about stepping outside of our traditional faith background, unless we’re convinced it’s either wrong, or not relevant in these modern times, or not meaningful to us personally? Part of this comes form putting a very high value on intellectual flexibility. As in, "I’m so open-minded and so liberal in my views, less judgmental, more accepting than those people, and so I must be taking the higher ground in relation to people who choose to put a high value on obedience or faithful observance of things that may not be popular, may be very difficult, or may require more personal sacrifice. "

Then it’s become very natural to criticize, or accuse the faithful people, or to try to “educate” them so they can also become more “evolved” and leave their traditional faith behind. There’s a big assumption here that the person who has left, is now in a superior position, both intellectually and morally. Frankly, we don’t like it when our religious community, friends and family condemn our actions, so we’re a lot more comfortable when they are accepting of whatever new lifestyle we are attached to.

You see this all the time, and I suspect it’s one of the reasons for Antisemitism. This isn’t my idea, but my son heard this in a lecture last year and I thought it was interesting. Christians came out of Judaism and as they left if behind, they tended to persecute and vilify the people who stayed. Now we often see Atheists, who often rise out of Christian origins, and again tend to criticize or even condemn the people who stay in the religion as being ignorant, close-minded, cruel, judgmental or hardhearted.

460

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

You see this all the time, and I suspect it’s one of the reasons for Antisemitism. This isn’t my idea, but my son heard this in a lecture last year and I thought it was interesting. Christians came out of Judaism and as they left if behind, they tended to persecute and vilify the people who stayed. Now we often see Atheists, who often rise out of Christian origins, and again tend to criticize or even condemn the people who stay in the religion as being ignorant, close-minded, cruel, judgmental or hardhearted.

      [/quote]

This is similar to what happened to Jews with communism. Jews brought communism to Europe and then eventually gentile communists who were more ruthless and focused kicked Jews out of communist governments. It was sort of like a bitter sweet twist: I bring you an ideology and form of government and society, and then you boot me out of this government and society.

Not all anti-homosexual practices were exclusive to religious belief. By Ancient Germanic law, homosexuals were put to death, usually by drowning. Anglo-Saxon law also had severe penalties.

463

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Is a person who has had a limb amputated and still experiences “phantom pain” delusional?
[/quote]

Yes, they are delusional. "[/quote]

Wow.

Ok, you either aren’t as good at English as I thought, or you need a basic psychology class.

If this is your view, discussion with you is going to be fruitless.[/quote]

I am not writing this to be confrontational, but I do not think you are seeing that he uses these words as they are meant to be used, devoid of emotional designation to them. I think you have negative emotion–as has whats seems to be almost the entire world-- to the words delusion and disorder.

I don’t consider phantom pain to be a delusion though as I believe from what I read that there are theories based on neurological reasons as to why it happens. I am not a neurologist but I think the loss of a limb, a severe morbidity, to have profound effects on neurological function. So the person might indeed really be suffering from an actually occurrence, not from delusional thought. But even if one was suffering from delusional roller coasters, I have compassion and wish for their pain to go away.

There’s also the modern phenomenon, or so it seems to be one, of people being too damn compassionate or at least having a mushy headed and fuzzy compassion instead of a strong headed, masculine sort of compassion (I guess we can call it tough love) and not giving into and promoting people’s vices or indulging in “understanding” them.