[quote]pushharder wrote:
Counter, check out the last paragraph where a FTM began testosterone and had to stop due to greater feelings of anger from hormone therapy.
Then we are not talking about the same ruling.
He explicitly discusses transgenders. If you do have an open mind instead of listening to what is already comfortable for you, then I will find it for you and send it to you.
Btw, I just noticed we’re not talking about the same Rabbi.
I will make the same comment as before: if you are indeed willing to open your mind to things outside your comfort zone but still related to Halacha then I will send you all of the information about Rabbi Valdenberg, his history, resume (very impressive) and his Halachic decisions.
He is one of the few Haredi Rabbis I willingly pay attention to since he is one of the few who appreciate the State of Israel.
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]DoBear wrote:
JB - I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family. I won’t argue with you but just to prove the point that even in Judaism the matter is not all black or white I refer you to the Rav Valdenberg who wrote “Tsitsit Eliezer”. I think you may be surprised.[/quote]
As an Israeli, I am very familiar with Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler. In fact, one of my first jobs as a kid was driving a Coca-Cola truck that delivered to Bnei Brak (which is the slum where his yeshiva was).
The particular ruling you discuss concerned a child born with female genitalia, no penis, some genetic abnormalities, and a single vestigial testicle within the body. He ruled it was appropriate in that circumstance (where there is a hermaphrodite) to violate the rule against castration.
Opinions differ as to whether he was correct, although all agree reasonable minds can differ.
But, as I noted in my very first post, there are some grey circumstances in the world that are close calls.
Here, however, Matt Kroc is a giant impressive dude – in a dress.[/quote]
Exactly. The moral question of using castration to correct a genetic birth defect in infancy is complete non-sequitur to the moral question of encouraging the use of castration and genital mutilation to conform to the psychosis of a person with a mental disorder.[/quote]
TooHuman - before you comment you should make sure your comment is related. I wrote Rabbi Valdenberg, JB responded with Rabbi Dessler. There is a reason I wrote a specific Rabbi. Had there not been this little mistake in understanding JB would have needed to respond to what Rabbi Valdenberg said and your comment would not have been related at all. I understand your zeal for showing others wrong, when a subject is close to my heart I have a tendency to do the same. But let’s at least try to keep it related by commenting on what has actually been written. I am sure our discussion will then be more fruitful.
I am not discussing the morality of it since my beliefs apparently differ from yours. Which is why I am not responding to what anyone else says. But says JB seems to speak on behalf of Judaism, my purpose is to show others who may not know the religion from which sprang all future Judeo-Christian civilizations and culture, that it is a religion of inclusion much more than it is of exclusion. Unfortunately many people have forgotten that. Religion, by its very nature, excludes the ones not related but there is a difference between excluding from your fold and keeping people away.
[quote]DoBear wrote:
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]DoBear wrote:
JB - I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family. I won’t argue with you but just to prove the point that even in Judaism the matter is not all black or white I refer you to the Rav Valdenberg who wrote “Tsitsit Eliezer”. I think you may be surprised.[/quote]
As an Israeli, I am very familiar with Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler. In fact, one of my first jobs as a kid was driving a Coca-Cola truck that delivered to Bnei Brak (which is the slum where his yeshiva was).
The particular ruling you discuss concerned a child born with female genitalia, no penis, some genetic abnormalities, and a single vestigial testicle within the body. He ruled it was appropriate in that circumstance (where there is a hermaphrodite) to violate the rule against castration.
Opinions differ as to whether he was correct, although all agree reasonable minds can differ.
But, as I noted in my very first post, there are some grey circumstances in the world that are close calls.
Here, however, Matt Kroc is a giant impressive dude – in a dress.[/quote]
Exactly. The moral question of using castration to correct a genetic birth defect in infancy is complete non-sequitur to the moral question of encouraging the use of castration and genital mutilation to conform to the psychosis of a person with a mental disorder.[/quote]
TooHuman - before you comment you should make sure your comment is related. I wrote Rabbi Valdenberg, JB responded with Rabbi Dessler. There is a reason I wrote a specific Rabbi. Had there not been this little mistake in understanding JB would have needed to respond to what Rabbi Valdenberg said and your comment would not have been related at all. I understand your zeal for showing others wrong, when a subject is close to my heart I have a tendency to do the same. But let’s at least try to keep it related by commenting on what has actually been written. I am sure our discussion will then be more fruitful.
I am not discussing the morality of it since my beliefs apparently differ from yours. Which is why I am not responding to what anyone else says. But says JB seems to speak on behalf of Judaism, my purpose is to show others who may not know the religion from which sprang all future Judeo-Christian civilizations and culture, that it is a religion of inclusion much more than it is of exclusion. Unfortunately many people have forgotten that. Religion, by its very nature, excludes the ones not related but there is a difference between excluding from your fold and keeping people away.[/quote]
Nicely written, DoBear, and welcome.
Thank you EmilyQ
Morality and choices have nothing to do with realizing what gender you identify with. Scientifically we have known about this for years. The brain determines what gender one identifies with. See the following article, one of many that notes this phenomenon:
The physical transgender transformation is no different from any other (cosmetic) hormone therapy or cosmetic surgery, both of these options are of course a choice. And if transgendered people are to be criticized for doing these things the critics should treat all other people who do these things just as critically, or judge no one at all.
[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Morality and choices have nothing to do with realizing what gender you identify with. Scientifically we have known about this for years. The brain determines what gender one identifies with. See the following article, one of many that notes this phenomenon:
The physical transgender transformation is no different from any other (cosmetic) hormone therapy or cosmetic surgery, both of these options are of course a choice. And if transgendered people are to be criticized for doing these things the critics should treat all other people who do these things just as critically, or judge no one at all.[/quote]
Cherrybomb, the thing is that if you are trying to convince someone of something you first have to go to where they are (in their mind) and from there show them the way to where you are. If you put out your hand to someone who is too far away from you they won’t be able to grasp it. In turn, this will lead to the fact that you haven’t achieved your goal of helping them change their point of you.
The article you link to is a great article! But it won’t convince someone who’s mind is so far away that they can’t grasp such an idea.
For me personally, though, I will say thank you for the article. It was an interesting read.
[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Morality and choices have nothing to do with realizing what gender you identify with. Scientifically we have known about this for years. The brain determines what gender one identifies with. See the following article, one of many that notes this phenomenon:
[/quote]
Good find, I kinda suspect that we’ll uncover more such evidence as our imaging technology continues to improve.
So Sunday morning musings for you all:
Came across a video that made me think a little deeper into the whole body dysphoria issue.
Most Transgender people feel as if they where born into the wrong body, can we agree on this ? ok.
But this video discussed how we (myself, Janae Marie et al) may not look at being born into the wrong body,
so much as this is the great body we built for ourselves, and we where just born with the wrong plumbing.
Do we condemn women athletes that have built phenominal bodies for being lesbian ?
If not, then we do we condemn male athletes for who they are attracted to ?
Is that not a double standard ?
It is easy to say “god said it, i believe it, that end it” than to actually sit down and critically read and think about
the science of all of this. … …
Anyway…StormTRUMPER on !
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LOL.
So, even some members of JB’s tribe disagree with his reading of this issue.
Yet, it’s a black and white thing?
Again, L-O-L.
[/quote]
It’s one of the things I love about my religion, the first thing you learn is that there are 70 aspects to everything you can imagine.
This specific Rabbi made a number of Halachic (Jewish Law) decisions which were based on “if possible, find the way to interpret the law in a manner that lets people not sin if it is something that is beyond their control” and before someone says “what if someone has blood-lust?” we are taught that he/ she should then become a surgeon or ritual meat slaughterer.
Why do I bring this up? Because for all intents and purposes, transgenders who are followed by a psychologist/ psychiatrist and who really feel that they are trapped in the wrong body can’t do anything about it besides hormone therapy and surgeries. Why turn them into sinners if there’s a more lenient way to interpret the law?
And I truly believe that this outlook on life is much healthier, and much more loving (I believe that that is the basic tenet of Christianity) than anything else.
Like I said, I normally don’t enter into these discussions, but I certainly don’t want people to think that JB is the only true representative of Judaism.
DoBear, I have read your posts with great interest. They are wonderfully written and very insightful. They also seem to be offered with, I imagine, true love for your fellow human being. You appear a true credit to your religion.
[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Morality and choices have nothing to do with realizing what gender you identify with. Scientifically we have known about this for years. The brain determines what gender one identifies with. See the following article, one of many that notes this phenomenon:
It’s interesting that the first study recruited 18 MtF trannsexuals who all identified as being “erotically attracted to males,” whereas the second study looked at 18 FtM trannsexuals who all identified as being “erotically attracted to females.”
Unfortunately, no homosexual controls were utilized in either study.
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Morality and choices have nothing to do with realizing what gender you identify with. Scientifically we have known about this for years. The brain determines what gender one identifies with. See the following article, one of many that notes this phenomenon:
It’s interesting that the first study recruited 18 MtF trannsexuals who all identified as being “erotically attracted to males,” whereas the second study looked at 18 FtM trannsexuals who all identified as being “erotically attracted to females.”
Unfortunately, no homosexual controls were utilized in either study.[/quote]
It is interesting. The first study I ever read about this study was almost ten years ago, a brain study on cadavers of people who had been psychologically screened and verified as true transsexuals for years prior to their deaths and who had believed they were not in the correct gender body. Their brains were dissected and the structure of their brain was, indeed, structured like like the opposite sex. Sexual attraction seems to be somewhat related, yet different from gender identification.
[quote]Doval wrote:
DoBear, I have read your posts with great interest. They are wonderfully written and very insightful. They also seem to be offered with, I imagine, true love for your fellow human being. [/quote]
Yes. Very refreshing. Really enjoying your perspective.
[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Morality and choices have nothing to do with realizing what gender you identify with. Scientifically we have known about this for years. The brain determines what gender one identifies with. See the following article, one of many that notes this phenomenon:
It’s interesting that the first study recruited 18 MtF trannsexuals who all identified as being “erotically attracted to males,” whereas the second study looked at 18 FtM trannsexuals who all identified as being “erotically attracted to females.”
Unfortunately, no homosexual controls were utilized in either study.[/quote]
It is interesting. The first study I ever read about this study was almost ten years ago, a brain study on cadavers of people who had been psychologically screened and verified as true transsexuals for years prior to their deaths and who had believed they were not in the correct gender body. Their brains were dissected and the structure of their brain was, indeed, structured like like the opposite sex. Sexual attraction seems to be somewhat related, yet different from gender identification.[/quote]
I don’t have time to look at it too closely, but these same authors published a study indicating that neuromorphological changes in FtM trannsexuals undergoing androgen therapy correspond solely to the masculinized/defeminized regions (e.g., SLF/CST) noted prior to treatment, an effect found to be in correlation with the degree of testosterone bioavailability noted prior to therapy.
What I find interesting about this is the purported functions of these fiber tracts: based on its connections within the brain, the SLF is thought to play a role in regulating motor behavior, perception/attention to visual space, and language articulation, while the CST is said to be involved in voluntary movement.
AKA, not necessarily things one would expect to make or break gender perception/sexual perception (though a few of them could explain why women suck at driving). Unfortunately, no motor, linguistic, or cognitive measurements were administered to the subjects before/after treatment.
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
So Sunday morning musings for you all:
Came across a video that made me think a little deeper into the whole body dysphoria issue.
Most Transgender people feel as if they where born into the wrong body, can we agree on this ? ok.
But this video discussed how we (myself, Janae Marie et al) may not look at being born into the wrong body,
so much as this is the great body we built for ourselves, and we where just born with the wrong plumbing.
Do we condemn women athletes that have built phenominal bodies for being lesbian ?
If not, then we do we condemn male athletes for who they are attracted to ?
Is that not a double standard ?
It is easy to say “god said it, i believe it, that end it” than to actually sit down and critically read and think about
the science of all of this. … …
Anyway…StormTRUMPER on ![/quote]
I took the night to think about the best way to respond to what you wrote. My religion is a large part of who I am. I believe that most people who identify with a religion of any kind feel this way but I don’t want to speak for others. Since my religion is such a large part of who I am, it greatly influences my manner of thinking and seeing the world. Asking me to disregard this is as unfair and as unrealistic as me asking you to disregard who you truly feel you are on the inside - a woman.
Please accept my apologies for people who use God to hate others or even not to accept them. I believe it comes from not enough knowledge about the basic tenets of their religion.
Let’s try to accept our different perspectives and work to make them work together. I believe that is a better solution.
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]Doval wrote:
DoBear, I have read your posts with great interest. They are wonderfully written and very insightful. They also seem to be offered with, I imagine, true love for your fellow human being. [/quote]
Yes. Very refreshing. Really enjoying your perspective.[/quote]
Thank you for the compliments.