[quote]debraD wrote:
You know, as a radfem myself, I have some challenges with identity politics. But it bugs the fuck out of me when other radfems call out identity politics under the fucking retarded premise that we are true women because we bleed and suffer under patriarchy.
Sorry but my fucking period isn’t that big a deal, it doesn’t define me and you don’t get to tell me what a woman is EITHER.
[/quote]
PERIOD!
nvm
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Except for having a period once a month most of this implies a privileged white woman who never had kids is not a real woman either.[/quote]
I saw this sort of reply on FB too, and I highly doubt she was even thinking this or trying to convey this. I’m sure she knows–as a woman–that there is more to being a woman than having a kid.
Her use of the word white and privileged together is rather played out as well. If we want to play fair, why not say that every person who is not destitute–that is, brown, black, white, Jewish, and so forth–as privileged.
I’d like to know who exactly this word privileged should apply to. Should we apply it to the heirs of white people in the current day, whose ancestors came to this country from England, Poland, Germany, Italy, and Scandinavia–in some cases with little more than their few belongings and their bare hands–and built this country with their bare hands, toiled away in smelly, dirty, and dangerous conditions to make a better life for these heirs?
Or should we apply it to the children of black and brown parents who despite having enormous difficulties and stereotypes to overcome–some of which are reinforced by the liberals who supposedly want to help them–went on to become middle and upper class, civic-minded people so that these children can have good lives?
Who exactly is privileged?
[quote]debraD wrote:
You know, as a radfem myself, I have some challenges with identity politics. But it bugs the fuck out of me when other radfems call out identity politics under the fucking retarded premise that we are true women because we bleed and suffer under patriarchy.
Sorry but my fucking period isn’t that big a deal, it doesn’t define me and you don’t get to tell me what a woman is EITHER.
[/quote]
Are there any women in the Western world suffering under patriarchy today or in the recent past?
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Except for having a period once a month most of this implies a privileged white woman who never had kids is not a real woman either.[/quote]
I saw this sort of reply on FB too, and I highly doubt she was even thinking this or trying to convey this. I’m sure she knows–as a woman–that there is more to being a woman than having a kid.
Her use of the word white and privileged together is rather played out as well. If we want to play fair, why not say that every person who is not destitute–that is, brown, black, white, Jewish, and so forth–as privileged.
I’d like to know who exactly this word privileged should apply to. Should we apply it to the heirs of white people in the current day, whose ancestors came to this country from England, Poland, Germany, Italy, and Scandinavia–in some cases with little more than their few belongings and their bare hands–and built this country with their bare hands, toiled away in smelly, dirty, and dangerous conditions to make a better life for these heirs?
Or should we apply it to the children of black and brown parents who despite having enormous difficulties and stereotypes to overcome–some of which are reinforced by the liberals who supposedly want to help them–went on to become middle and upper class, civic-minded people so that these children can have good lives?
Who exactly is privileged? [/quote]
Yes its a vague term, but strictly in terms of the quoted post and my reply, it means the following.
Being middle class in the US is comparable to the above.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Except for having a period once a month most of this implies a privileged white woman who never had kids is not a real woman either.[/quote]
I saw this sort of reply on FB too, and I highly doubt she was even thinking this or trying to convey this. I’m sure she knows–as a woman–that there is more to being a woman than having a kid.
Her use of the word white and privileged together is rather played out as well. If we want to play fair, why not say that every person who is not destitute–that is, brown, black, white, Jewish, and so forth–as privileged.
I’d like to know who exactly this word privileged should apply to. Should we apply it to the heirs of white people in the current day, whose ancestors came to this country from England, Poland, Germany, Italy, and Scandinavia–in some cases with little more than their few belongings and their bare hands–and built this country with their bare hands, toiled away in smelly, dirty, and dangerous conditions to make a better life for these heirs?
Or should we apply it to the children of black and brown parents who despite having enormous difficulties and stereotypes to overcome–some of which are reinforced by the liberals who supposedly want to help them–went on to become middle and upper class, civic-minded people so that these children can have good lives?
Who exactly is privileged? [/quote]
Yes its a vague term, but strictly in terms of the quoted post and my reply, it means the following.
Being middle class in the US is comparable to the above.[/quote]
Good post. The way you put it was obtusely funny, in a good way.
I guess I am privileged now.
[quote]debraD wrote:
Sorry but my fucking period isn’t that big a deal, it doesn’t define me and you don’t get to tell me what a woman is EITHER.
[/quote]
Can you tell us what a woman is?
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
Sorry but my fucking period isn’t that big a deal, it doesn’t define me and you don’t get to tell me what a woman is EITHER.
[/quote]
Can you tell us what a woman is?
[/quote]
Not Deb, but I agree that the quoted post does not resonate with me at all. Periods are potentially messy and a little bloating and that’s about the extent of the searing agony I suffer.
So speaking for myself, no. I cannot tell you what a woman is. Even here on TN, where we obviously have much in common, if I defined “woman” it would not well describe DebraD or PowerPuff, much less the rest of womankind (“like all women, I wake at 5:30 most work mornings so I can lift weights and run for an hour before spending 30 minutes getting showered and ready for work”).
From the dictionary, which defines better than I can.
FEMALE
noun
1.
a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.
2.
an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces egg cells.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
So speaking for myself, no. I cannot tell you what a woman is. Even here on TN, where we obviously have much in common, if I defined “woman” it would not well describe DebraD or PowerPuff, much less the rest of womankind (“like all women, I wake at 5:30 most work mornings so I can lift weights and run for an hour before spending 30 minutes getting showered and ready for work”).
[/quote]
The terms woman or female are not meant to describe each and every individual female despite their individual differences. They are not meant to designate your tastes, lifestyles or habits. One of my dachshunds likes to play with toys. The other doesn’t. One has black wiry hair and a tiny frame and the other has brown soft hair and a larger body. They are both dogs!
Debra, Powerpuff, and you, you’re all women and I’d like for any person to come forth with a reason why calling a woman a woman or defining what is a woman as offensive or inappropriate.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
So speaking for myself, no. I cannot tell you what a woman is. Even here on TN, where we obviously have much in common, if I defined “woman” it would not well describe DebraD or PowerPuff, much less the rest of womankind (“like all women, I wake at 5:30 most work mornings so I can lift weights and run for an hour before spending 30 minutes getting showered and ready for work”).
[/quote]
The terms woman or female are not meant to describe each and every individual female despite their individual differences. They are not meant to designate your tastes, lifestyles or habits. One of my dachshunds likes to play with toys. The other doesn’t. One has black wiry hair and a tiny frame and the other has brown soft hair and a larger body. They are both dogs!
Debra, Powerpuff, and you, you’re all women and I’d like for any person to come forth with a reason why calling a woman a woman or defining what is a woman as offensive or inappropriate.
[/quote]
That was in response to this, which you quoted, and which I believe would have any woman bristling who does not see herself as victimized by life and her gender:
Personally, I feel grateful that men will stop when I am broken down on the side of the road. It is an unearned benevolence. Certainly I am also wary of men’s intentions depending on circumstance, but it seems a little shocking that she uses that an example of “you’ll never understand the difficulty.”
So go ahead and call me a woman, that I have no problem with and in fact the words “woman” and “female” ARE meant to designate us all if we’re speaking biologically. However, that doesn’t address what it means to be a woman, much less “what it is truly like,” which is the question I was answering.
So the next question is whether each of us gets to define it for ourselves, at which point physiology becomes unimportant. I would suggest that your “searing stomach pain so bad it doubles you over” example would support the “everyone gets to decide” view.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Some relevant material to this thread in this article. You see if you can find it.
Push: Thanks for this. I only managed to read a few lines just now in the last few minutes of my work break, but I am interested in reading all of it later.
I am not sure what the overall thesis of the article, but if it’s what I think, it’s on par with what I have thought for a long time. One of the biggest weapons of the cultural Marxists is the degradation of our vocabulary and using words as weapons or getting rid of any statements or phrases or words that are not music to their ears!
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Periods are potentially messy and a little bloating and that’s about the extent of the searing agony I suffer.
[/quote]
Other women have a much tougher time. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Experienced my ex in searing agony many times.[/quote]
I recognize that many women struggle during their periods, Push. My point is that to suggest that the writer of that line can tell us all what it is to be a woman based solely upon her personal experience is ridiculous, just as it would be if I took my own unique physical quirks and generalized them to everyone else. Do we all struggle with my unruly hair? Poor distance vision? Long legs? No, of course not. Nor cramps nor morning sickness nor more-victimized-than-thou attitudes.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I’ve noticed an increase in wannabe Jews
[/quote]
As a former Catholic who had the full-deal conversion with ritual circumcision (thankfully just a drop drawn), Beit Dein, and mikva, I have to say I never, ever, wanted to be Jewish (or even considered it) until I fell in love with a Jewish woman, and then I intellectually decided it was correct somewhere along the process, probably because Catholicism as practiced in my area is basically paganism.
I am surprised a priest participated in your marriage; my childhood priest blew a gasket, as did my mother.
I do sport a fully rockin war beard now, except I can trim it to 3-4mm when I go on location and need to be able to wear a H2S mask.
I vaguely feel like a faker during services, but I have to say the Chabad guys are very accepting and nice.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Some relevant material to this thread in this article. You see if you can find it.
“According to the most-basic tenets of psychology, helping people with anxiety disorders avoid the things they fear is misguided.”
Yep, helping people with gender dysphoria avoid the reality that they are and will always be the sex assigned by their genetics regardless of their anxiety about it is misguided.
[quote]chillain wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
There is only one reality and one Mother Nature. I’d say up until about twenty years ago, people looked at the world through such a perspective. Somewhere along the way, in the 2000’s, mushy-headed, over-compassionate Americans made up concepts such as “my reality” and “his/her reality”. Although each person’s life experiences, thoughts, perspectives, attitudes, and trials are different from one another, there is only one reality. [/quote]
As DoubleDuce suggested, “traditional reality” was poor word choice on my part, because I certainly didn’t mean to suggest multiple realities or Mother Natures.
Rather, my point was simply that the sexual dimorphism in our species isn’t always clear-cut. Consider the small percentage who are born anatomically ambiguous via genetic and hormonal factors. Certainly that minority compromises the “most obvious” of the intersex individuals created by Mother Nature, but who’s to say that less obvious manifestations aren’t also created. And in such cases, nearly all we have to go on is their own reported subjective, anecdotal experiences. Now THAT is what I meant re: broadening our framework of understanding.
And I do agree re: mushy-headed, over-compassionate Americans and their contrivances, because of course.
[/quote]
Bullshit, there’s plenty of good empirical evidence about the experience of people with genetic and hormonal abnormalities. There’s also empirical evidence for the experiences of people with congenital dwarfism and many other genetic abnormalities.
The 'framework of understanding" is relatively well established, which is why gender dyshporia is classified as a mental disorder as should be treated as such.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Periods are potentially messy and a little bloating and that’s about the extent of the searing agony I suffer.
[/quote]
Other women have a much tougher time. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Experienced my ex in searing agony many times.[/quote]
I recognize that many women struggle during their periods, Push. My point is that to suggest that the writer of that line can tell us all what it is to be a woman based solely upon her personal experience is ridiculous, just as it would be if I took my own unique physical quirks and generalized them to everyone else. Do we all struggle with my unruly hair? Poor distance vision? Long legs? No, of course not. Nor cramps nor morning sickness nor more-victimized-than-thou attitudes.
[/quote]
So exactly how should one convey that as a woman they have experience as a woman and that men never will? (Serious question here, not trying to be confrontational.)
I’m sure that woman can go on further, but chose to stop. And yes, she might seem to some as being weepy and her asinine comment about white privilege is silly, especially because she too i white.
I can convey some things as a man. Besides, at the end of the day, no matter how eloquently or not someone puts it, a man cannot turn into a woman and vice versa.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Periods are potentially messy and a little bloating and that’s about the extent of the searing agony I suffer.
[/quote]
Other women have a much tougher time. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Experienced my ex in searing agony many times.[/quote]
I recognize that many women struggle during their periods, Push. My point is that to suggest that the writer of that line can tell us all what it is to be a woman based solely upon her personal experience is ridiculous, just as it would be if I took my own unique physical quirks and generalized them to everyone else. Do we all struggle with my unruly hair? Poor distance vision? Long legs? No, of course not. Nor cramps nor morning sickness nor more-victimized-than-thou attitudes.
[/quote]
So exactly how should one convey that as a woman they have experience as a woman and that men never will? (Serious question here, not trying to be confrontational.)
I’m sure that woman can go on further, but chose to stop. And yes, she might seem to some as being weepy and her asinine comment about white privilege is silly, especially because she too i white.
I can convey some things as a man. Besides, at the end of the day, no matter how eloquently or not someone puts it, a man cannot turn into a woman and vice versa.
[/quote]
Personally, I would simply say that “[I] have experience as a woman that men never will.” It’s fine to state that periods are one difference without defining them as an agonizing rite of femininity, which is an appeal to emotion rather than a generalizable truth.
One of the things that makes me very sad when I see M2F transitions of whatever sort is that I know that it’s very, very unlikely that the trans female will ever have the experience of being a woman that I have had - of being small and cherished and caretaken by stronger, more aggressive others, or of being able to seduce as a female in the many ways it is possible to do that. If they “feel” female I have to imagine that they have the same romantic notions I have, as the notions are feminine in nature. If so, they are probably not being fulfilled.
However, I’m also very aware that many genetic females will never experience what I have experienced because they are also not delicate or feminine in appearance.
So “what is woman?” beyond her reproductive organs is a very good question indeed.