Matt Kroc Transitions to Janae Kroc

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

True, JB does not approve of adultery.

And, yes, he’s an asshole about it. Ask me how I know.

[/quote]

I actually thought about you when I was responding to him.

It feels to me like the same utter conviction that he knows what is unquestionably “right” appears in both instances.

[/quote]

Yeah, I changed my mind on that.

I think JB is pretty sure what the rules in a conservative Jewish community are and I think he is willing to go out of his way to prevent it going the way of mainstream society.

We need not less of such men but way more. [/quote]

Sure.

Unless it’s YOUR life that he fucks up. [/quote]

No, because I do not base my morals on how it affects me.

I am absolutely, positively the wrong man for a conservative Jewish girl, or maybe not, but at the very least I would be aware that there are certain obligations, like not laying down the pipe into some strange.

Someone I actually would put a ring on, would show a remarkable amount of restraint and discipline and I do not think I can demand that without putting the effort in myself.[/quote]

Indeed, but that is YOUR business, and not some stranger’s to enforce.
[/quote]

Well communities have standards, who should enforce them?[/quote]

The people directly involved?

Or are you now a fan of vigilantism and mob justice?

Besides, there were other, less intrusive and destructive ways to intervene.
[/quote]

As far as I remember he did not start a twitter hashtag campaign but he contacted the local Rabbi, who is actually the person that gets paid to deal with this shit.

Also, it did not really stop Ruffian in his tracks, it was a warning shot, no more, no less.

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
and…ok.
Interesting how this thread has “evolved” ?

If there will be no more questions about the Actual Thread Title and transitioning…
I thank each and every one of you for the way this thread was handled.

Hopefully, you will walk away a little more educated, if not more confused : )

killerDIRK.[/quote]

Anyhow, the John Hopkins University, which pioneered gender reassignment surgery stpped that, because the patients were killing themselves at an alarming rate.

To indulge these people might not even be good for them, because now they are re-assigned and the hole in their soul is still there.

Now what?

Well, suicide, thats what, but how did that help them one bit?

edited, because John Hopkins stopped it because, suicide.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

…*I work with a young teen whose parents have an open marriage and make no effort to hide this. It is doing profound damage…

[/quote]

By the way, for your edification I’m going to tutor you a bit: there is a difference between having an open marriage and swinging. They can certainly overlap in some instances but there are gazillions of folks who’ve swung and/or are swinging who’ve never had nor have an open marriage. There are also (fewer) folks who have open marriages who don’t swing.[/quote]

Thank you - yes, I’ve been lumping it all together under “sex with others with partner’s consent while married.”

I suppose it’s fair to say that I generalize my feelings to others, which would seem to be supported by my young client’s hurt and embarrassment over her parents’ behavior, which among other things has had mom openly crushing on a series of men and expecting the support/involvement of the family. (Polyamory.)

I’m at a training now, with my best friend asleep in the bed across the room, and I think I can say for certain that she would be wounded in a way that would not fully recover if she was asked to swing, because her reactions to me in talking about the piece with the ex makes that clear. She is not the first friend I’ve discussed this with and the reactions have all been the same - shock and sympathy, with no real answer regarding how I was supposed to move forward feeling cherished after such discussions with him (my answer was always no, his response was gradually increasing petulance over time because he couldn’t live truly or whatever, until he finally gave up).

On the other hand, to be fair, it is possible that his inability to let it go after my response indicated that it would not be healthy for me did more damage than merely floating the idea would have been.

Update! She woke up and I asked her and she said that a first request would be met with a quick “are you crazy” and that there would be lingering confusion and resentment (“you want me to fuck other men?”). Further requests would probably spell the eventual end of the relationship. She views it as I do, a break in the bond regardless of whether acted upon.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I believe in intellectual honesty, and try to exercise it internally and in debate.
[/quote]

Which is why I respect you and I am sure I am not the only one.

Also, you don�´t start damseling when someone attacks you.[/quote]

Wow, thank you!

Hockey and I had a fight night before last, and when he encountered in me, for the first time, a cyclone of malevolent rage, I’m sure he wished that I’d instead wept girlishly. (So he wouldn’t have had to, lol.)

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]CrewPierce wrote:

…I find swinging as odd as a male transitioning to a female…

[/quote]

OK.[/quote]

Yeah, I don’t buy this analogy either.

Not in that I refuse to believe “swinging” may wear on a family, I’m sure it can. Shit, a career can destroy a family, I’m sure swinging can. But I’m not buying the whole notion that I seem to be picking up that a gender transformation isn’t upping the anti quite a bit in the “possible damage to a family” arena over swinging.

The beast has risen

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]CrewPierce wrote:

…I find swinging as odd as a male transitioning to a female…

[/quote]

OK.[/quote]

Yeah, I don’t buy this analogy either.

Not in that I refuse to believe “swinging” may wear on a family, I’m sure it can. Shit, a career can destroy a family, I’m sure swinging can. But I’m not buying the whole notion that I seem to be picking up that a gender transformation isn’t upping the anti quite a bit in the “possible damage to a family” arena over swinging. [/quote]

I don’t think anyone is saying that - certainly I’m not - it was just a digression based on Push’s agreement with JB and the cognitive dissonance that seemed to accompany that. It wasn’t about equivalency or a greater-than/less-than.

Damage to others in making lifestyle changes is certainly an interesting question if looking at the issue from a curious or academic standpoint.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
it was just a digression based on Push’s agreement with JB and the cognitive dissonance that seemed to accompany that. It wasn’t about equivalency or a greater-than/less-than.[/quote]

A large distinction exists between Push (or whomever) and Mr. Kroc and TTR, for that matter.

Push and the TTR may or may not agree with my opinion regarding swinging and/or adultery. I don’t care. Similarly, neither man asks me to change my opinion that swinging is bad and, in the eyes of both Judaism and Noahadic religions such as Christianity, a violation of the rules of conduct expected. In short, they tolerate my stuffy and old-fashioned beliefs.

Mr. Kroc, his fellow “gender confused” persons, and their supporters (e.g., Chusin), in contrast, are appalled that I dare label a 300lb man in a dress who claims to be a lesbian as mentally ill and/or violating a number of mitzvah binding upon even non-Jews. Hence, they are not tolerant of my stuffy and old-fashioned beliefs.

I think the source of why people are so intolerant of calling wrong “wrong” is the mistaken Christian belief (by which I mean Christians are mistaken as to the correct Christian belief, not that the Christian belief is incorrect in this circumstance) that “one should not judge.” I’ve been schooled that such is not correct Christian theology. Rather, the exact parable is that "one should not judge the sinner (that is, think you are better than said sinner), but that said sinner shall also “go and sin no more.” In short, the bad act is still a bad act.

And said parable is equally correct in Judaism. I certainly have my share of broken mitzahs; possibly more than they. I just muddle along with G-d’s help. I don’t think I am special or better than Mr. Kroc, Push, or TTR. But I know “wrong” and my own failures at living up to those objective standards would be made worse by lying to someone and telling them that a wrong course of action was OK.

Nor does the existence of an underlying mental or even physical condition make something that is wrong OK.

For example, being a drunk is a bad thing. Now, this bad action (drinking too much, too often) could be caused by a biological tendency to addiction, PTSD, or just habit. No one tells an alcoholic that it is OK to drink too much, too often. Similarly, telling a 300lbs man that his desire to wear a dress and pretend to be a lesbian was OK-- even if caused by some underlying condition not that person’s fault – would be a lie and doing a disservice to said 300lb man.

And finally, regarding TTR:

  1. Yes, I did interfere in his life. The only time I ever did such a thing in my life.

  2. I did so for a multiple of reasons:

(A) TTR was undergoing conversion to Orthodox Judaism. That is, real Judaism. While you all may “pff” at our beliefs, I sincerely believe it is a covenant with G-d. It is a basic belief of Judaism that entering said covenant under false pretenses brings bad things upon the person who does so, and his spouse, children, and children of children. Hence, I was concerned.

(B) TTR spent, according to his Rabbi (or Google, if you know TTR’s name), a long time at the very bleeding edge of the tip of the spear protecting this country. He’s a brave, resourceful, man. As noted by many here, he clearly had PTSD and was doing stupid destructive things.

(C) He was about to join the very, very small community of Orthodox outside Israel and the East/West coasts. We get grief for a lot of reasons. Adding a self-destructive cad to our small tribe would be “bad for the Jews” to quote my mother.

And finally, I note that, post my involvement: (A) TTR got highest marks from the Beit Den and successfully converted to Judaism without false pretenses, and I understand had a Bar Mitzvah, choosing the Book of Ruth*; (B) got married to the woman he loved; (C) got treatment for PTSD, (D) is a loving father; and (E) said small Orthodox shul does not have a cad in its mix, but rather an imposing gentleman who easily removes persons who come and disrupt the services.

  • Yes, I followed up.

Wait, what did I miss between JB and TTR?

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Wait, what did I miss between JB and TTR?[/quote]

Nothing that needs to be re-aired.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]CrewPierce wrote:

…I find swinging as odd as a male transitioning to a female…

[/quote]

OK.[/quote]

Yeah, I don’t buy this analogy either.

Not in that I refuse to believe “swinging” may wear on a family, I’m sure it can. Shit, a career can destroy a family, I’m sure swinging can. But I’m not buying the whole notion that I seem to be picking up that a gender transformation isn’t upping the anti quite a bit in the “possible damage to a family” arena over swinging. [/quote]

I don’t think anyone is saying that - certainly I’m not - it was just a digression based on Push’s agreement with JB and the cognitive dissonance that seemed to accompany that. It wasn’t about equivalency or a greater-than/less-than.

Damage to others in making lifestyle changes is certainly an interesting question if looking at the issue from a curious or academic standpoint.[/quote]

“Cognitive dissonance,” eh? You’re going to whip out that good ol’ internet debate term?
[/quote]

Haha, okay, noted. I was talking about MY perspective there, though, rather than accusing you of exhibiting it. A slight distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

I won’t pursue this any further. Suffice it to say that I remain convinced that your actions were both dangerous and inappropriate. [/quote]

And yet, it is all fine afterwards…

But, but, but, it could not have been!

Who has the right !?!

Noone, but who shoulders the burden, whatever the outcome may be?

I know exactly where you are coming from but either you stand behing your convictions or you dont and when someone joins your community which means he at least claims to share the same convictions, yes, I would enforce that.

And, if you think JB went too far, you should have seen me in the same situation.

Not because I dislike TTR, not at all, but if you swim so far out that you wont come back, someone has to pull you back in.

Well, actually, no one HAS to.

Some just do.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
it was just a digression based on Push’s agreement with JB and the cognitive dissonance that seemed to accompany that. It wasn’t about equivalency or a greater-than/less-than.[/quote]

A large distinction exists between Push (or whomever) and Mr. Kroc and TTR, for that matter.

Push and the TTR may or may not agree with my opinion regarding swinging and/or adultery. I don’t care. Similarly, neither man asks me to change my opinion that swinging is bad and, in the eyes of both Judaism and Noahadic religions such as Christianity, a violation of the rules of conduct expected. In short, they tolerate my stuffy and old-fashioned beliefs.

Mr. Kroc, his fellow “gender confused” persons, and their supporters (e.g., Chusin), in contrast, are appalled that I dare label a 300lb man in a dress who claims to be a lesbian as mentally ill and/or violating a number of mitzvah binding upon even non-Jews. Hence, they are not tolerant of my stuffy and old-fashioned beliefs.

I think the source of why people are so intolerant of calling wrong “wrong” is the mistaken Christian belief (by which I mean Christians are mistaken as to the correct Christian belief, not that the Christian belief is incorrect in this circumstance) that “one should not judge.” I’ve been schooled that such is not correct Christian theology. Rather, the exact parable is that "one should not judge the sinner (that is, think you are better than said sinner), but that said sinner shall also “go and sin no more.” In short, the bad act is still a bad act.

And said parable is equally correct in Judaism. I certainly have my share of broken mitzahs; possibly more than they. I just muddle along with G-d’s help. I don’t think I am special or better than Mr. Kroc, Push, or TTR. But I know “wrong” and my own failures at living up to those objective standards would be made worse by lying to someone and telling them that a wrong course of action was OK.

Nor does the existence of an underlying mental or even physical condition make something that is wrong OK.

For example, being a drunk is a bad thing. Now, this bad action (drinking too much, too often) could be caused by a biological tendency to addiction, PTSD, or just habit. No one tells an alcoholic that it is OK to drink too much, too often. Similarly, telling a 300lbs man that his desire to wear a dress and pretend to be a lesbian was OK-- even if caused by some underlying condition not that person’s fault – would be a lie and doing a disservice to said 300lb man.

And finally, regarding TTR:

  1. Yes, I did interfere in his life. The only time I ever did such a thing in my life.

  2. I did so for a multiple of reasons:

(A) TTR was undergoing conversion to Orthodox Judaism. That is, real Judaism. While you all may “pff” at our beliefs, I sincerely believe it is a covenant with G-d. It is a basic belief of Judaism that entering said covenant under false pretenses brings bad things upon the person who does so, and his spouse, children, and children of children. Hence, I was concerned.

(B) TTR spent, according to his Rabbi (or Google, if you know TTR’s name), a long time at the very bleeding edge of the tip of the spear protecting this country. He’s a brave, resourceful, man. As noted by many here, he clearly had PTSD and was doing stupid destructive things.

(C) He was about to join the very, very small community of Orthodox outside Israel and the East/West coasts. We get grief for a lot of reasons. Adding a self-destructive cad to our small tribe would be “bad for the Jews” to quote my mother.

And finally, I note that, post my involvement: (A) TTR got highest marks from the Beit Den and successfully converted to Judaism without false pretenses, and I understand had a Bar Mitzvah, choosing the Book of Ruth*; (B) got married to the woman he loved; (C) got treatment for PTSD, (D) is a loving father; and (E) said small Orthodox shul does not have a cad in its mix, but rather an imposing gentleman who easily removes persons who come and disrupt the services.

  • Yes, I followed up.
    [/quote]

Thank you for clarifying all of that. I’m inclined to agree with most of it, though I would classify the transgendering as difficult or sad, whether in its origins or in outcome, rather than wrong. I believe that those of us born with clarity of sexuality are lucky in the same way that those of us blessed with intelligence have been given an unearned gift.

I rarely disagree with Chushin, but in the case above I do. The outcome for TTR and his wife, which delights me as I feel protective of her, supports that you did the right thing.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Yes, the world is a black and white place, and YOU can see those 2 colors perfectly.

Omniscience must be wonderful.

THIS is the problem with true believers, IMO.
[/quote]

Seeing black doesn’t necessitate voiding all other color. The whole world need not be black and white to know one particular thing is black.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Yes, the world is a black and white place, and YOU can see those 2 colors perfectly.

Omniscience must be wonderful.

THIS is the problem with true believers, IMO.
[/quote]

Seeing black doesn’t necessitate voiding all other color. The whole world need not be black and white to know one particular thing is black.
[/quote]

Thank you for proving my point, Chushin. You are intolerant of people dare believe there is an objective truth, which is sometimes black-and-white. I don’t claim to understand all the rules, all the situations, or the reasons for things, but in this case, the ball is way outside the strike zone.

Indeed, as DoubleDuce apply appointed, sometimes there are colors. In this case, however, I go back to my original post:

[quote] Jewbacca wrote:

Yes, biology and sex is sometimes a spectrum, but Kroc was not a hermaphrodite dancing on the grey edge. Kroc is a dude. An impressive dude, in fact.

What he has are mental problems and/or kinks where he likes to wear dresses and pretend he is a lesbian. [/quote]

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Yes, the world is a black and white place, and YOU can see those 2 colors perfectly.

Omniscience must be wonderful.

THIS is the problem with true believers, IMO.
[/quote]

Seeing black doesn’t necessitate voiding all other color. The whole world need not be black and white to know one particular thing is black.
[/quote]

Thank you for proving my point, Chushin. You are intolerant of people dare believe there is an objective truth, which is sometimes black-and-white. I don’t claim to understand all the rules, all the situations, or the reasons for things, but in this case, the ball is way outside the strike zone.

Indeed, as DoubleDuce apply appointed, sometimes there are colors. In this case, however, I go back to my original post:

[quote] Jewbacca wrote:

Yes, biology and sex is sometimes a spectrum, but Kroc was not a hermaphrodite dancing on the grey edge. Kroc is a dude. An impressive dude, in fact.

What he has are mental problems and/or kinks where he likes to wear dresses and pretend he is a lesbian. [/quote]
[/quote]

Even though I’m an atheist and derive morality from empiricism, reason and secular ethical principals, subjectivist ethics and not being able to definitively call something immoral is far more damaging and repulsive to me than ethics derived from Judaism, so I totally understand where you’re coming from.
If you can’t identify evil and immorality in people, then you’ve abandoned ethics altogether.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oh boy.[/quote]

Hey push there’s some evidence to suggest that having a non-monogamous sexual partner in a marital relationship can affect the outcomes of a child negatively in a similar way that fatherlessness does.

However, as long as the parents stay together(till death do us part) and form a strong bond and communicate their intentions to the child, then there’s nothing inherently wrong with swinging.

The other side of that argument is that swinging does eventually weaken the bond between parents or that people who are swinging in a marital relationship have a weaker bond to begin with, making it difficult to maintain a marriage.

Divorce is a terrible outcome for children and as long as you maintain the bond between parents, I don’t think there’s a good argument for swinging being immoral by definition.