PowerPuff, thanks. Similar in nature to Maslows hirearchy of needs.
Could make for a very interesting read once i get through this year of LvN school.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
True, JB does not approve of adultery.
And, yes, he’s an asshole about it. Ask me how I know.
[/quote]
I actually thought about you when I was responding to him.
It feels to me like the same utter conviction that he knows what is unquestionably “right” appears in both instances.
[/quote]
Yeah, I changed my mind on that.
I think JB is pretty sure what the rules in a conservative Jewish community are and I think he is willing to go out of his way to prevent it going the way of mainstream society.
We need not less of such men but way more. [/quote]
Sure.
Unless it’s YOUR life that he fucks up. [/quote]
I don’t imagine that orion’s preferred entertainments are on the “approved” list or that JB would tolerate having orion (or Push) anywhere near his daughters.
I would say that as someone looking at it from the secular standpoint of what is best and/or healthiest for individuals, I agree with him on the matter of adultery and promiscuity (which I may be practicing myself at the moment from a conservative religious perspective, but in a committed, monogamous relationship). I believe that swinging and hookup-type casual sex do damage to the individuals involved; generally the women, but not always.
I disagree, however, with JB’s “mental illness” perspective on gender fluidity. There I agree with Chushin - sure, there could be mental illness involved, but I don’t believe that gender changing is necessarily causal and it can sometimes be the solution. I don’t see it as causing ripples of destructive impact the way I do with something like swinging.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
True, JB does not approve of adultery.
And, yes, he’s an asshole about it. Ask me how I know.
[/quote]
I actually thought about you when I was responding to him.
It feels to me like the same utter conviction that he knows what is unquestionably “right” appears in both instances.
[/quote]
Yeah, I changed my mind on that.
I think JB is pretty sure what the rules in a conservative Jewish community are and I think he is willing to go out of his way to prevent it going the way of mainstream society.
We need not less of such men but way more. [/quote]
Sure.
Unless it’s YOUR life that he fucks up. [/quote]
No, because I do not base my morals on how it affects me.
I am absolutely, positively the wrong man for a conservative Jewish girl, or maybe not, but at the very least I would be aware that there are certain obligations, like not laying down the pipe into some strange.
Someone I actually would put a ring on, would show a remarkable amount of restraint and discipline and I do not think I can demand that without putting the effort in myself.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
True, JB does not approve of adultery.
And, yes, he’s an asshole about it. Ask me how I know.
[/quote]
I actually thought about you when I was responding to him.
It feels to me like the same utter conviction that he knows what is unquestionably “right” appears in both instances.
[/quote]
Yeah, I changed my mind on that.
I think JB is pretty sure what the rules in a conservative Jewish community are and I think he is willing to go out of his way to prevent it going the way of mainstream society.
We need not less of such men but way more. [/quote]
Sure.
Unless it’s YOUR life that he fucks up. [/quote]
I don’t imagine that orion’s preferred entertainments are on the “approved” list or that JB would tolerate having orion (or Push) anywhere near his daughters.
[/quote]
See, while this most likely true, there is a case to be made for me.
Do you want a nice little provider drone who will put her on a pedestal and will be lost when all the work he put into his education for some reason becomes worthless, or, do you want someone who hoists the Jolly Roger when the going gets though and starts cutting throats.
The more volatile, unpredictable and disordered a society gets, the more people like me look better and better.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
True, JB does not approve of adultery.
And, yes, he’s an asshole about it. Ask me how I know.
[/quote]
I actually thought about you when I was responding to him.
It feels to me like the same utter conviction that he knows what is unquestionably “right” appears in both instances.
[/quote]
Yeah, I changed my mind on that.
I think JB is pretty sure what the rules in a conservative Jewish community are and I think he is willing to go out of his way to prevent it going the way of mainstream society.
We need not less of such men but way more. [/quote]
Sure.
Unless it’s YOUR life that he fucks up. [/quote]
I don’t imagine that orion’s preferred entertainments are on the “approved” list or that JB would tolerate having orion (or Push) anywhere near his daughters.
I would say that as someone looking at it from the secular standpoint of what is best and/or healthiest for individuals, I agree with him on the matter of adultery and promiscuity (which I may be practicing myself at the moment from a conservative religious perspective, but in a committed, monogamous relationship). I believe that swinging and hookup-type casual sex do damage to the individuals involved; generally the women, but not always.
I disagree, however, with JB’s “mental illness” perspective on gender fluidity. There I agree with Chushin - sure, there could be mental illness involved, but I don’t believe that gender changing is necessarily causal and it can sometimes be the solution. I don’t see it as causing ripples of destructive impact the way I do with something like swinging.[/quote]
To be clear, my objection is not to JB’s values, but to the fact that he took it upon himself to interfere in TTR’s private life in a huge and destructive way.[/quote]
I know. I would not have the confidence or moral authority to do what he did, however I can say with conviction that the two times I was informed of infidelity it was a gift. Certainly it caused “huge damage” from the perspective of the men who’d cheated on me but I credit the men with having caused that, not the informants. As Ben Franklin said, “If you do what you should not, you must hear what you would not.”
And let’s face it, most of the damage was to me in the larger scheme of things. That damage would potentially have been much greater if I had not been told.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
True, JB does not approve of adultery.
And, yes, he’s an asshole about it. Ask me how I know.
[/quote]
I actually thought about you when I was responding to him.
It feels to me like the same utter conviction that he knows what is unquestionably “right” appears in both instances.
[/quote]
Yeah, I changed my mind on that.
I think JB is pretty sure what the rules in a conservative Jewish community are and I think he is willing to go out of his way to prevent it going the way of mainstream society.
We need not less of such men but way more. [/quote]
Sure.
Unless it’s YOUR life that he fucks up. [/quote]
No, because I do not base my morals on how it affects me.
I am absolutely, positively the wrong man for a conservative Jewish girl, or maybe not, but at the very least I would be aware that there are certain obligations, like not laying down the pipe into some strange.
Someone I actually would put a ring on, would show a remarkable amount of restraint and discipline and I do not think I can demand that without putting the effort in myself.[/quote]
Indeed, but that is YOUR business, and not some stranger’s to enforce.
[/quote]
Well communities have standards, who should enforce them?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I don’t imagine…JB would tolerate having…Push anywhere near his daughters.
[/quote]
Maybe not. You can imagine as you wish.
But if Push ever happened to be around JB’s daughters, he and they would be treated respectfully and courteously and no one would need fear anything. Neither should you for that matter.
Well, here you are condoning what you’re doing (with some rationalizations perhaps) and condemning those who just carry what you’re doing a bit further. Interesting.
Also, I’ve a feeling your knowledge of swinging is derived from reading the likes of Glamour Magazine and is probably limited to what would fit under the cuticle of your pinkie finger.
Otherwise, you’d’ve known that in the swinging world, generally speaking, the women essentially rule the roost – a feminist’s dream world in essence. Haven’t you frequently bragged that you’re a feminist?
Tell us where you’ve gained this know-how about these “ripples of destructive impact.”
You’ve got some things to learn, Em. Don’t quit school just yet.
I don’t say these things as a defense of swinging but as a jab at someone who is obvious clueless about something in which they oh so wish to be seen as a serious pontificator. Maybe it’d be best if you stepped out of the batter’s box and let a pinch hitter do the job.
[/quote]
Wow, there’s a lot here.
*I do not read Glamour unless it’s what’s available while I’m waiting for a haircut. The magazines I have read cover-to-cover over the course of many years were Time and National Review (the latter a gift from my father - I was very sad when they stopped coming 18 months or so after his death).
*I don’t feel that I brag that I’m a feminist. I believe that where appropriate I disclose it, generally because I’m getting ready to voice an opinion that may run contrary to its ideology. I believe in intellectual honesty, and try to exercise it internally and in debate.
*I do not doubt that you would be respectful to JB’s daughters - you have almost always treated me with utmost respect despite knowing that I don’t play in your arena. Your above-quoted post, however, reads to me as if written with your lip curled into a snarl, which has happened a couple of times when I’ve disagreed with you or crossed you ideologically. (An example would be your claim that I “brag” about being a feminist - I don’t think you actually believe that and are simply using it as a dig, which in my opinion is dirty pool, in conversation or debate.) But at any rate, I was more speculating about JB’s reactions than your behavior, which speculation of course is only in my head and holds no basis in anything more.
*Most of the “knowledge” I have about swinging has come directly from you and your legion of admirers, many of whose significant others would be devastated to know of their partners’ feelings about your (former?) lifestyle.
*My ex-husband asked me to swing repeatedly. It undermined my security in ways I can’t even begin to enumerate.
*I work with a young teen whose parents have an open marriage and make no effort to hide this. It is doing profound damage.
Although I identify as a feminist, I hold a very conservative view of committed relationships, and of the dynamic between men and women ideally. I want a man I can trust, someone I can follow, someone who will protect me. Generally speaking, what attractive women in the first world need protection from is men. My ex-husband broke many contracts, and that was one of them.
I have a great deal of interest in conservative religious cultures and believe that they have, generally speaking, greater levels of contentment due to the clarity of roles and rules and such. When I offer that I am possibly, by JB’s counting, living a life of promiscuity, I simply acknowledge what I (again) speculate to be his viewpoint. While I hope to marry Hockey for my own reasons, it frankly doesn’t matter to me what JB perceives my lifestyle to be. His religious views are his and he is welcome to them. I don’t feel cornered and vicious when he expresses them to me (and he has). Why do you feel threatened by my aversion to your choices? I’ve never asked you to change, nor would I. It seems to have worked for you. God bless! But it’s not for me and I, personally, think it damaging.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Now just in case I came on a little too strong for your sensitive tastes in my previous post, Em, let me soothe your troubled soul with this delightful little ditty:
Thank you, Push, but do I seem troubled to you? I certainly don’t feel that way. I will refrain from suggesting that you sounded flustered in YOUR post because that would be unchivalrous of me.
On a friendlier note, one compliment I can offer without reservation regarding your “lifestyle” is that you’ve always struck me as very fair in your treatment of women in the “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander” sense. I don’t see any of the hypocrisy of the men who seem to feel that promiscuity is fine for them but indefensible for women, despite the logical contradiction that creates. I appreciate that about you.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I appreciate the thoughtful post, Em.
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I don’t imagine…JB would tolerate having…Push anywhere near his daughters.
[/quote]
Maybe not. You can imagine as you wish.
But if Push ever happened to be around JB’s daughters, he and they would be treated respectfully and courteously and no one would need fear anything. Neither should you for that matter.
Well, here you are condoning what you’re doing (with some rationalizations perhaps) and condemning those who just carry what you’re doing a bit further. Interesting.
Also, I’ve a feeling your knowledge of swinging is derived from reading the likes of Glamour Magazine and is probably limited to what would fit under the cuticle of your pinkie finger.
Otherwise, you’d’ve known that in the swinging world, generally speaking, the women essentially rule the roost – a feminist’s dream world in essence. Haven’t you frequently bragged that you’re a feminist?
Tell us where you’ve gained this know-how about these “ripples of destructive impact.”
You’ve got some things to learn, Em. Don’t quit school just yet.
I don’t say these things as a defense of swinging but as a jab at someone who is obvious clueless about something in which they oh so wish to be seen as a serious pontificator. Maybe it’d be best if you stepped out of the batter’s box and let a pinch hitter do the job.
[/quote]
Wow, there’s a lot here.
*I do not read Glamour unless it’s what’s available while I’m waiting for a haircut. The magazines I have read cover-to-cover over the course of many years were Time and National Review (the latter a gift from my father - I was very sad when they stopped coming 18 months or so after his death).
[/quote]
Well, the “ripples of destructive impact” certainly didn’t come from posts by me or my “legion of admirers” as you later allege. And I could tell it didn’t come from the personal experiences of you or someones close to you because it was glaringly ignorant (not “obnoxious” but the traditional meaning of ignorant).
I don’t feel that I brag that I’m a swinger. But I’ve mentioned it enough times to where I can see how others would perceive it that way.
Same with you. And your feminism.
You do this well and I admire you for it.
My initial inference, and apparently an incorrect one, was in the vein that you thought JB’s daughters might be unsafe in the presence of a “sexual predator” like me when most probably, other than that of their own father, they could probably not be much safer.
My “addiction,” if you will, to dopamine isn’t much different than yours to serotonin and it places no fair, young damsels in any kind of potential distress. But you clarified and I’m OK with that.
*This lip-curled snarl of which you speak is an overstatement and a mere reaction to a perceived below the belt jab (2 or 3 of 'em, in fact) by you and some conjecture on your part that has no basis in real life experiences (like I said, by you or those close to you – close enough where you could make valid judgments because of their trustworthiness).
Well then, I have never discussed “ripples of destructive behavior” especially in regards to the women because:
I
Have
Not
Observed
Them
So have been unable to discuss them…
…but apparently you have super cognitive powers that allow you to read between the lines and discover these “ripples” radiating within this cesspool that you have ascertained must certainly be there.
Other way around with my ex and me. There was a lot of mutual discussion before losing our “virginity” and believe you me, I never had to ask repeatedly. She was more than a willing partner. In fact, I remember being a bit miffed the first few times we did it that she seemed to enjoy it a whole lot more than I thought she should’ve (I say that with a twinkle in my eye because it is amusing to me now and was indicative of my insecurity more than hers). This flies in the face of your speculation that men are dragging their women kicking and screaming into “destructive” waters in this arena.
To whom?
Now I have no doubt it can lead to this – profound damage – and will not dispute your judgment. You may be right.
Imbibing of alcohol can also do profound damage to a relationship. In fact, I’d bet 10,000,000 internet dollars that more relationships and families have been torn apart by alcoholism than probably any other source BUT I don’t see you attacking the participating in the clinking of glasses with the same disdain and contempt that you’ve directed toward partner sex sharing.
The point it may very well be harmful to the family you mentioned or it may not be as much of a causal effect but rather more of a correlative one.
I guarantee you that for every destructive relationship caused by swinging proffered by you I could counter with 10 that are the epitome of a happy, secure couple. I know this because I’ve actually been right in the middle of it for 15 years and haven’t just “heard about it” from distant sources.
[quote]
Although I identify as a feminist, I hold a very conservative view of committed relationships, and of the dynamic between men and women ideally. I want a man I can trust, someone I can follow, someone who will protect me. Generally speaking, what attractive women in the first world need protection from is men. My ex-husband broke many contracts, and that was one of them.
I have a great deal of interest in conservative religious cultures and believe that they have, generally speaking, greater levels of contentment due to the clarity of roles and rules and such. When I offer that I am possibly, by JB’s counting, living a life of promiscuity, I simply acknowledge what I (again) speculate to be his viewpoint. While I hope to marry Hockey for my own reasons, it frankly doesn’t matter to me what JB perceives my lifestyle to be. His religious views are his and he is welcome to them. I don’t feel cornered and vicious when he expresses them to me (and he has). Why do you feel threatened by my aversion to your choices? I’ve never asked you to change, nor would I. It seems to have worked for you. God bless! But it’s not for me and I, personally, think it damaging.[/quote]
Fair enough and I agree with much of this portion of your post.
In conclusion, I don’t feel cornered and vicious and threatened, Em. For crying out loud, that was cheap shottery, the kind you previously claimed I lobbed at you. Relax, we’re buds.
Frankly, part of the allure of swinging is precisely that it is NOT accepted by the likes of you and society in general. That is, the 'rebelliousness" of it all does indeed play a part. If everybody was doing it it wouldn’t be near the fun, believe it or not.
Anyway, like usual, thanks for the conversation. I care not to have it with very many folks so if I have it with you it means your special. Really.[/quote]
Oops, my last post came before this latest of yours, so was unfair. I’m sorry. I did mean the compliment, though.
I have to do some stuff and then I’ll try to get back to this. Or perhaps I’ll just say that I see damage in the kids of drinkers and all sorts of other doers of “adult things.” In this kid’s case, the swinging is motivated by the mom. As you know, my mother left my father and me for an affair, which is not the same as swinging, obviously, but it was a prioritization of her wants over my needs. I tend to view swinging that way, whether rightly or wrongly. It’s just my opinion! As I’ve often mentioned, I’m not by nature a political creature, so my opinions are merely that. I’m not advancing agendas.
I also did say that my sense is “mostly women” (or whatever I said) but also “not always.” So perhaps I stand corrected, and perhaps my ex-husband’s behavior colors my perspective (well, obviously).
Okay, my man calls, gotta go. Thank you for the compliment. I like you, too, and would be sad not to be able to debate with you (with our mutually curled lips).
[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I believe in intellectual honesty, and try to exercise it internally and in debate.
[/quote]
Which is why I respect you and I am sure I am not the only one.
Also, you don´t start damseling when someone attacks you.
and…ok.
Interesting how this thread has “evolved” ?
If there will be no more questions about the Actual Thread Title and transitioning…
I thank each and every one of you for the way this thread was handled.
Hopefully, you will walk away a little more educated, if not more confused : )
killerDIRK.