Matt Hughes VS Royce Gracie in May

Off Topic
21

[quote]slimjim wrote:
pimpinthebox wrote:
some crap

WTF? Two minutes in the first round? You must be hooked on that rock son…if there is one thing Gracie’s still have going for them it is their ability to protect themselves against strikes. Royce’s guard is as good as it gets…though I think Hughes will win, this is not going to be an easy defeat of Royce.

I hate these debates b/c free TV fights have made the casual observer a so called expert - just b/c he watches it on TV. LOL. Royce is going nowhere in 2 minutes. I expect Royce to remind everyone what ground fighting and submission is once it reaches the ground. Hughes is good, compared to his competition in UFC - but not as good as the credit he seemingly receives around here. He has absolutely amateur stand up skills and his submissions skills are decent but nowhere near Royce. I can’t wait to continue this thread AFTER the fight.

22

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I had the opportunity to train with Royce one summer back in 97’ (as in get tossed around choked and basically man handled :). He is the real deal no doubt. But the game has left him far behind. I think this will be one of the biggest mismatches in UFC history.

It saddens me to say that I frankly don’t see Hughes even getting a warm up from Royce.

I sure hope I’m wrong however. [/quote]

Left him behind!!?? That is an incredible statement. What you term “left behind” is actually just a bunch of average to begin with fighters finally bringing their submission game up. In the final analysis, that’s all it is - guys have learned to fight and defend themselves on the ground - there have ALWAYS been strikers, stand up fighters. Shit, the athletes aren’t even better conditioned - not many of them can go the distance w/o gassing b/c 9 out of 10, with a twist on dan john’s favorite saying, look like tarzan but fight like jane. Hughes is strong yes, but strength, as you SHOULD be aware from rolling with Royce, is NOT an issue over proper technique. Hughes stand up would get him out of an amateur boxing match. He is an above average wrestler but are you going to sell me that his submission skills are there with Royce?

23

[quote]pimpinthebox wrote:
slimjim wrote:

. I am a GSP, Franklin fan, but I do think that Hughes will overpower him rather quickly once he feels him out. Did you see the Franklin v. Shamrock? Shamrock is a stud, and was great, but there is a difference in skill of then and skill of now. I see the M.H. - R.G. going the same way.

I can’t believe I’m responding to this crap - its almost as bad as sports talk radio, with ex high school football players, or worse even, guys that never played, weighing in with “informed” lol, opinions about what the local sports star or team is doing wrong LOL.

How can you use a washed up, 40 year old Shamrock as the measuring stick of skill progression in the UFC?? C’mon man. The only intelligent thing you wrote in the paragraph is being a Franklin fan. The man is humble and that is enough for me. Hughes is an arrogant motherfucker. I’ll tell you right now…Hughes aint shit on his feet and “overpowering” someone with skill on the ground isn’t likely to happen - power don’t beat technique and leverage - and that’s a simple fact. It DOES however, seem to win in the UFC, where the skill level is NOT as high as you would seem to believe.

24

I think this debate on here is proving exactly why the UFC set this match up. It’s going to generate a tremendous amount of interest and most importantly, for them, a signifigantly higher buy rate on that PPV.

All the guys that have been lamenting how the “old school” UFC was so much better than the current version will be watching to see Joyce make Hughes tap. All the guys who think that the current fighter are the best ever are going to be watching to see Hughes put "the old man’ in his place.

All in all, it should be an entertaining match and hopefully won’t be a first round victory for anyone. I wonder if the folks who dropped money for the seats for the fight this past Monday felt cheated by three fights that were all over so quickly? Its impressive to see a guy take someone out quickly and at the same time reminds you of the Tyson fights back in the 80’s when he was knocking people out in the first round and spectators were bitching about paying to see a one round fight.

25

Prediction: Round 1 starts…Gracie pulls guard…Hughes stands, delivers Ginormous Hughes Signature Slam…some other stuff happens for a few rounds…Split Decision for Hughes.

26

[quote]Minotaur wrote:
Prediction: Round 1 starts…Gracie pulls guard…Hughes stands, delivers Ginormous Hughes Signature Slam…some other stuff happens for a few rounds…Split Decision for Hughes.[/quote]

Good prediction.

Was looking at Gracies record on Sherdog, didn’t realize he had been fighting in the Pride and K-1 events in Japan over the past few years. Has a 2-1-2 record for this century.

27

[quote]danreeves1973 wrote:
Was looking at Gracies record on Sherdog, didn’t realize he had been fighting in the Pride and K-1 events in Japan over the past few years. Has a 2-1-2 record for this century.[/quote]

Well, he is coming off that big win over Akebono. Get it…big win?

Because Akebono’s so big.

Anybody??? :wink:

28

[quote]Minotaur wrote:
danreeves1973 wrote:
Was looking at Gracies record on Sherdog, didn’t realize he had been fighting in the Pride and K-1 events in Japan over the past few years. Has a 2-1-2 record for this century.

Well, he is coming off that big win over Akebono. Get it…big win?

Because Akebono’s so big.

Anybody??? ;)[/quote]

What is the visual representation of comedic crickets chirping? I need that right now?

No, good joke, really. Had no idea Akebono had crossed over to MMA.

And has anyone ever seen a sumo cross over and do any good in any other martial arts competition? I do recall two from the “old school” UFC days that both got beat fairly badly.

29

[quote]danreeves1973 wrote:

Was looking at Gracies record on Sherdog, didn’t realize he had been fighting in the Pride and K-1 events in Japan over the past few years. Has a 2-1-2 record for this century.[/quote]

IIRC both of those draws were because they went to a time limit and it was stipulated that time limit would result in a draw. I don’t recall how the K-1 rounds are set up (10/5 like Pride?), but Royce defintely needs time to work.

If Hughes can’t easily “fold [Royce] into a pile of bloody laundry,”* he’ll likely be able to hang on and defend until the match either gets stood up or the round ends. The UFC 5 Shamrock v. Gracie would have ended a lot differently if they stood that sucker up when neither fighter worked to improve their position (or rather, Royce stalled).

  • Paraphrasing from Sherdog.
30

[quote]Cluster wrote:
danreeves1973 wrote:

Was looking at Gracies record on Sherdog, didn’t realize he had been fighting in the Pride and K-1 events in Japan over the past few years. Has a 2-1-2 record for this century.

IIRC both of those draws were because they went to a time limit and it was stipulated that time limit would result in a draw. I don’t recall how the K-1 rounds are set up (10/5 like Pride?), but Royce defintely needs time to work.

If Hughes can’t easily “fold [Royce] into a pile of bloody laundry,”* he’ll likely be able to hang on and defend until the match either gets stood up or the round ends. The UFC 5 Shamrock v. Gracie would have ended a lot differently if they stood that sucker up when neither fighter worked to improve their position (or rather, Royce stalled).

  • Paraphrasing from Sherdog.[/quote]

Bullshit. It wasn’t Royce who was stalling in that match, rather Ken willing to sit in Royce’s guard and defend against submissions. It’s hard to submit someone when all they’re doing is trying to keep from getting submitted.

31

I don’t think a lot of you realize how much Royce is putting on the line here. Apparently he has taken the fight under UFC rules(five minute rounds, not sure if they’re making this a five round bout or three) and no gi as well since NSCA rules do not allow gi’s. While his academies will no doubt continue to do okay, a lot of the prestige associated with the Gracie name could take a big hit.

As for all the quips about Akebono, I don’t think a lot of you realize how heavy a 500 lbs individual is. I seriously doubt anyone on this board could last very long with someone that heavy laying on them, unskilled or not.

Royce’s only true loss was to Sakuraba in a 90 minute war where he broke his foot in the first five minutes and basically spent the rest of the time defending from the bottom until his corner threw in the towel. Sakuraba is no slouch.

32

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Left him behind!!?? That is an incredible statement. What you term “left behind” is actually just a bunch of average to begin with fighters finally bringing their submission game up. In the final analysis, that’s all it is - guys have learned to fight and defend themselves on the ground - there have ALWAYS been strikers, stand up fighters. Shit, the athletes aren’t even better conditioned - not many of them can go the distance w/o gassing b/c 9 out of 10, with a twist on dan john’s favorite saying, look like tarzan but fight like jane. Hughes is strong yes, but strength, as you SHOULD be aware from rolling with Royce, is NOT an issue over proper technique. Hughes stand up would get him out of an amateur boxing match. He is an above average wrestler but are you going to sell me that his submission skills are there with Royce?
[/quote]

Okay, I think I know where you are coming from. However, I want you to consider these facts:

  1. When Royce ruled the UFC no one and I mean NO ONE understood ground fighting! Hence he had his way with all of them as soon as the fight hit the ground. And keep in mind while Dan Severon didn’t understand submissions he was a very good wrestler and it took Royce 15:00 to submit him. That should prove that big strong wrestlers (with little else) can give Royce trouble.

Now add this to the equation: All of the world class grapplers now understand submissions. I’m not saying that they are as good as Royce Gracie at Submission, but they know enough to stay out of trouble and, or counter a move that comes their way. And in many cases their skills do rival the Gracies!

By the way do you know how the last three Hughes matches ended? He SUBMITTED ALL OF THEM: One armbar, one choke and one Kimura! That my friend demonstrates a very good understanding of submission techniques!

  1. Royce has been away from the UFC for approximately 9 years! That’s not 9 months brother, it’s 9 long years. Do you think his skills have gotten better compared to the rest of the field? Not hardly!

How many fights has Hughes had in the Octagon over the past 8 years? That would be 42 fights winning all of them but 4! (2 losses very early on)

In other words, while the “ring rust” has been attaching itself to Royce at a steady rate. Matt has done nothing but polish his art and get better with each fight.

The fights or Jiu-Jitsu matches that Royce has had since leaving the UFC have been few and quite unspectacular. Remember the Walid Ismal (sp) fiasco? Royce was choked unconscious! And then there was his loss to Sakuraba in Pride. Of course Sakurba went through several Gracie’s like crap through a goose. But that’s another argument.

What has Royce Gracie done over the past 9 years that would lead you to believe that he is even as good as he was back in 97’? But then again, most of us know that he has to actually be BETTER than he was in the mid 90’s to defeat Matt Hughes.

  1. Let’s do a quick analysis of what it takes to win, and make a comparison.

SKILL

Stand up:

You stated that Hughes stand up skills are not all that great. I agree, they are not as good as most at his level. However what does this really mean in a head to head match with Royce Gracie? Have you ever seen Royce’s stand up skills? I have and if you would rank Hughes skills just below ametuer boxers then Royce’s would be somewhere around High School level. This is not a put down. The Gracies were never known for their stand up striking ability.

I’ve been punched and kicked by Gracie and while it doesn’t feel like a swedish massage, I shudder to think of the difference between his punches and Matt Hughes strikes.

(I will say that Gracie has a sneaky high face kick and if he gets lucky it might work…)

Stand up game: Hughes all the way!

Ground Game:

I know, I know the Gracies invented the ground game. But, remember one important factor; Hughes is a world class wrestler! In fact, he was a 4 time collegiate wrestling champion Division one. And was actually on the Olympic team. You don’t get much better than that. And while he may not have grown up with submissions the way Royce did, he has proven over the past 8 years and 42 fights winning all but 4, and 20 by submission that he is more than capable of mixing it up with Royce on the ground skill wise.

Ground Game: Equal.

A quick look at some other aspects of what it takes to win:

Strength: I don’t think that you or anyone else is ready to say that Royce is even in the same league with Hughes when it comes to strength and power.

Speed: Are you ready to say that Hughes lightning fast take downs are slower than Gracies moves? Not hardly. What drives a persons moves (besides skill obviously) muscle!

Stamina: Have you ever seen Hughes sucking wind after one or two rounds? No, he is supremely conditioned. I will admit that Gracie has excellent stamina as well. I’ll call this one a toss up.

I know how you feel Royce is most definitely the sentimental favorite. He WAS the UFC, no question. If not for Royce and his family we would not have MMA. I give Royce (and his family) a great deal of credit for taking martial arts to the next level and erasing for ever more the image of the mystical black belt fighter who can defeat all comers with lightning kicks and magical pressure points.

I am truly thankful that those days are over, for all but the most gullible, and of course children.

However, this is a new day my friend and the fighters of today are bigger (for their weight) stronger, faster, better trained and they are all well aware (at that level) of every aspect of martial arts, there are no more secrets on the ground! This erases the biggest component of the early Gracie arsenal.

Royce Gracie WILL be defeated by Matt Hughes. Whether he hangs on for 5 rounds (I assume it’s a recognized championship fight), or Hughes puts him to sleep early there is no way for the legend to live up to the reality! And the reality is, the game has passed him by!

Zeb

33

I will say that Kimo and Ken Shamrock were both stronger than Hughes is when they fought Royce.

I do not agree that Hughes draws with Royce on the ground. His submissions are sloppy and came against opponents who aren’t nearly as skilled on the ground. While it is true that the progression of MMA has allowed fighters to bring the gap between wrestlers and BJJ guys closer, it is one thing to learn a few submissions and kimura “Fat Boy” Riggs, and another completely to attempt the same against someone who has been practicing the art his entire life.

I believe Hughes will be victorious, but I think it will go down to a decision and Hughes will spend his time scoring points with takedowns and sitting there just holding out for the win…only his strength and the UFC rules make it a stalemate once it hits the mat.

Also, I think Royce agreed to take this fight because he sees it as a way to retire on a high note, one last hurrah that he wouldn’t attempt if Penn were the title holder. I’m willing to bet he’s seen Penn’s match and fully expects to exploit Hughes inadequecies on the ground the way BJ did.

34

royce is going to loose badly, hence
9 yrs of rust, and matt will slam him
all over the place. the anouncement
was a letdown and look forward to hughes VS GSP maybe near end of the year, doubt huges will stay inactive given his competitive nature.

35

Bravo on your analysis ZEB. You definetely know your shit. I take it you sparred with Gracie? Sorry to hijack, but how did that come about?

Hughes all the way.

36

[quote]slimjim wrote:
it is one thing to learn a few submissions and kimura “Fat Boy” Riggs, and another completely to attempt the same against someone who has been practicing the art his entire life.
[/quote]

Really? Well how about taking out Frank Trigg in the first round with a choke? And how about tapping out Georges St. Pierre in the first round with an armbar?

These examples, along with his other wins by submission (20), prove that Matt Hughes is well versed in submission techniques.

Also keep in mind when you mention Shamrock and Kimo that niether of them were even on the same planet as Royce relative to submissions when they fought!

In addition to that Kimo gave Royce such a hard time that Royce could not continue in the tournament!

And that they second time they fought Shamrock drew with Royce. While I admit that Shamrock sat on him and used his weight and strength to defend only.

Those two fights (Shamrock 2 and Kimo) prove that Royce can indeed be man handled. Add to this Matts incredible grappling ability and his knowledge of submission which niether of the above fighters had at that time and it spells trouble for Royce!

37

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Bravo on your analysis ZEB. You definetely know your shit. I take it you sparred with Gracie? Sorry to hijack, but how did that come about?

Hughes all the way.[/quote]

I would love to tell you a great story about how this came about. But the reality is I had the money and decided to see how good Royce Gracie really was. I do odd things like that on occasion.

When I saw him defeat Dan Severn I had a difficult time believing it. I come from a pure wrestling background and had heard of Severn. I couldn’t understand how a guy who weighed 178lbs. could defeat Severn, who was a true heavyweight.

That just didn’t happen in my world. They were both basically wrestlers I figured. How could the wrestler who weighed 60lbs. more than the other guy lose? Of course that was long before I had any understanding of BJJ. (And I am far from an expert now by the way).

Actually, I was thinking one of two things: it’s either fixed or I would learn quite a bit from Royce.

Obviously, I ended up learning. After I was taught a good lesson first :slight_smile:

Honestly Royce is a great guy and in my heart I would love to see him win. But my head tells me otherwise…

38

I think of the welter weight big three (Hughes, Penn and GSP) Hughes is the best match for Royce. Jujitsu guys have given Hughes problems in the past. Newton caused him problems so did Verissimo and Penn beat him.

I think Hughes is going to win this fight. However I don?t think that it will be a demolition. Yeah, it?s possible that the ref might stop it early but if that doesn?t happen I can see it going for a while. The Gracies are a very proud family and I can see Royce fighting as if his life depends on it and taking a big beating. In his favour however Hughes isn?t one of those wrestlers who will just lay n? pray and it?s possible he might get caught with something.

Hughes is a big time favourite and I think that he will win but it?s not an uninteresting match up.

Also I found this online?

It?s the Hughes Vs Penn match. (for those who haven?t seen it)

I?m not offering it as evidence of anything. Penn is a freak. He has better jujitsu that Royce and is great at everything else as well. He?s got good stand up and Matt Linland has said that he had trouble taking him down and keeping him there.

39

Man I love that video.

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[quote]ZEB wrote:

Ground Game:

Hughes is a world class wrestler! In fact, he was a 4 time collegiate wrestling champion Division one. And was actually on the Olympic team.
[/quote]

When did this happen? Where was I? Think you may mean 2 time all american, but there has been only 2 4 time champions. And I don’t know which Olympics you may mean, but he wasn’t on the team.