Mast or Proviron as "TRT" Addition?

Pharma / TRT
1

Hello dear friends. I am on about 150 mg T enanthate (75x2 about e3d) and 1500 UI HCG (500x3) a week TRT for a year, going fine, no need for AI thankfully, good bloods and well being etc.

I am happy with TRT overall but libido, drive and mood is not as much as I want even though noticably better than pre TRT. (High sex drive wife and high tempo work, so both are needed.) So I am looking to add a long term low dose Masteron (70-100 mg/week?) or Proviron (12,5-25 mg/daily?) to improve those two things.

By the way geniune Primo bought from pharmacy at 100 mg (50x2/week) does nothing to me benefically. No benefit or appearent harm other than some decrease in erection quality, libido and tolerance (found myself frequently annoyed by people and felt kind of anhedonic) Any idea why? Thought Primo was just better, safer Masteron. More I read more I realise I was with the wrong impression?

I have got some questions, any answer is appreciated.

  1. Which would be better, Mast or Proviron if we speak purely about mood, libido and drive at said dosages?

  2. I heard Proviron works at the beginning then loses effectiveness as it plummets SHBG. Is this true, even with doses as low as 12,5-25 mg? If true what can be done about it? Why Masteron, which also reduces SHBG, doesnā€™t appear to cause this effect?

  3. I have slighly low HDL (just below range) and pretty low LDL and slightly high blood pressure. Which would worsen my cardiovascular health more? Is it something to worry about at such small doses if I start to take precautions like low fat plant based diet (already interested in it), fish oil, reducing bad stuff etc?

  4. Only reliable Masteron I found was in Propionate form (canā€™t buy from other countries, live in a strict country) and Test I am using is in Enanthate. I inject it E3D and heard Propionate must atleast be injected EOD. I donā€™t want to make my routine chaotic, want to take 'em together. So which would be better?

a) Switch Test to Propionate too and inject T and Mast together EOD.
b) Keep the T enanthate E3D schedule, also inject the Mast Propionate E3D together with T enanthate. (Prefer this one, some say Propionate is ok E3D but I donā€™t know)

  1. Which is worse for hair at the said doses?

  2. You get my case: I seek to improve libido, mental well being and drive while also considering my cardiovascular health. I think sustainability of the compound (not losing its effectiveness) also matters. In this case which one would you recommend and at what dose/frequency?

Thank you.

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None of the above is a long term medication. I will answer more in depth when Iā€™m at a computer. Find a TRT dose that works for you and stick with that. If TRT isnā€™t cutting it look elsewhere medically. Now for PEDs we can talk Mast vs Primo. Proviron wonā€™t do much.

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Hello, thanks for the reply. The thing is I tried from 80 to 200 mg, 150 is the best I feel. I feel pretty good other than the things I talked about. I would consider my general well being with TRT (0=dead, 5=average, 10=super human) a 8 but in libido, drive etc I feel like a 5. Nothing wrong with 5, just want it 6 or 7, not a sex god, or giga entrepreneur kind, a little above average.

I tried from herbal supplements like maca, mucuna to medicine like caber, cialis, ritalin etc. None help noticably. I think they do help to get you from 3-4 to a 5 but they donā€™t boost it further if you are already a 5? Hope I articulated what I mean clearly.

On Proviron, I was guessing the answer you gave me based on what I read.

I am curious about Mast, its long term low dose usage and its potential.

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When I was on TRT, Cialis, and all were very unpredictable. Before TRT, that stuff had me hard as a rock going for 2-5 nuts over the course of hours. On TRT, sometimes I was golden, but most times I was NOT. Now that Iā€™ve been off TRT for 6 months, Iā€™m back to being golden. There are a lot of guys that get real messed up in that department on TRT. BTW, I loved the muscle and strength gains, but not as much as I liked to be able to perform.

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@theinneroh Hello. Our experience sadly seems similar hence my journey to experiment with other compounds like Masteron so I donā€™t drop TRT since it really helps.

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Iā€™ve been adding Mast to my TRT for at least 3 years and it has helped all the issues you are worried about. Yes, it does have its impacts to HDL but for me, its a valid trade off for the benefits. Also, Iā€™m not prone to male pattern baldness but that is a concern for some guys. Iā€™m currently running 125 mg test E and 100 mg mast E per week. Iā€™m 57 and have great erection quality and a very high libdo.

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@studhammer Hello, I really appreciate the insight, just what I needed. What other benefits have you seen at 100mg/week and were you using it continously at 3 years? How much of a drop in HDL did you see?

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None that I can describe really. I just feel great all the time. I initially started Mast because I had a bad reaction to NPP which impacted my erection quality. I liked it so much I just stayed on.

Thatā€™s hard to say. I havenā€™t really tracked it and my HDL wasnā€™t great to begin with.

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I donā€™t think Mast is going to give you drive comparable to Ritalin. It is likely to improve libido, but drive / energy to do things isnā€™t going to compare to a stimulant drug.

I am just saying this so you have realistic expectations. Otherwise you will likely be let down when you find yourself horny with about the same motivation.

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Does your lab work show deficiencies that these too meds would fill? Are you certain your lack of libido/mood/drive is caused by a lack of these two compounds? If yes, then give them a go. If not, Imā€™ not sure what you expect from them.

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Crushed E2 may be the culprit

Either that or you donā€™t react well to primo. Everyone is different.

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Hello guys, sorry for the late reply. Was really busy this week. Started Mast Prop and changed T Prop too eod.

30 mg T Prop + 30 Mg Mast Prop eod = 105 T + 105 Mast every week. (Also my typical HCG) Sadly I came with bad news.

Symptoms: Significantly increased irritability, slightly colder hands/feets, reduced joy from fast food (which is good but extremely weird. Burger king tasted like the most bland thing ever, wth?). Feels like low E2? But zero joint ache even though my joints are really pain prone. No increase in libido or good mood, maybe slight increase in hardness. Increase in my ADHD symptoms. Low motivation, EXTREME sleepiness at day but big insomnia at night. Almost had my first panic attack at night, waking up and feeling like not able to breath, throbbing heart etc. Sadā€¦ Neither dead emotions or emotional roller coster?

What are your thoughts? Seems like I will drop it and continue Test Prop 40 mg EOD (140 mg/week) to see how I feel atleast a 2 months, no added things, only HCG and T Prop. Going to get a blood test per month to understand my baseline. After that 2 months going to add either Mast or pharma bayer Primo while keeping everything same.

@blshaw You were going to talk in depth, would you, if possible? And Mast vs Primo thing. Interesting thing is pharma Primo is cheaper here vs Mast, it is deemed safer hence I would add Primo if well being, mood, libido effects are as significant as Mast. I often heard mostly good things about Mast on libido, mood, confidence etc wise but when looking at posts about TRT+ Primo experiences varied. Some experienced the same good things in Mast but some said they felt horrible, low libido etc. A lot said it didnā€™t affect them in any way as well. My persistence on DHT based steroids is for the androgen based mindset, mood. Hope I donā€™t come as a fool.

@studhammer What do you think of my symptoms? Mast blocked too much E2 receptors and caused low E2 symptoms? Are those even low E2 symptoms? Got any similar things from Mast?

@mnben87 I totally agree, sorry if my answer came this way. I donā€™t expect it to be a full stimulant or PDE5 inhibitor. But a passive but reliable, steady increase in mood, drive etc was my expectation.

@swoops39 I am not seeking those as something to fill my biological need like TRT hence I said ā€œTRTā€, I am looking for them for a slight boost, like a supplement but actually do something unlike most supplements.

@unreal24278 I think I am sensitive to low E2. What do you think about symtoms? Low E2? If that is the case would a really low Primo or Mast work? Low enough to not significantly affect my E2 but still work?

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I feel this. Imo, your path to fixing this is through ADHD meds. I havenā€™t gotten resolution with androgens. I tried (up to 875 mg test e on a blast and no symptom resolution for ADHD). Ymmv, but didnā€™t work for me. Some people seem to have different experiences with different ADHD meds. I understand not wanting to be on them though.

Iā€™d go back to a long ester test like e or c. Pinning eod is still advantageous for most. Iā€™d say long term if you want more androgens, test is where itā€™s at. Just more of it.

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In the states dexmethylphenidate worked really well for me. Bummer we donā€™t have that in Aus

I use dextroamphetamine in Aus. Theyā€™re dispensed in bottles of 100 which is ridiculous given how controlled the medication is/considering with other medications in the same bracket of scheduling youā€™re limited to picking up like 20 tablets at a time.

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@mnben87 @unreal24278 Hello mates, thanks for the reply.

The thing is I respond to ADHD medicines pretty well with minimal sides but I donā€™t want to be on them. Maybe Iā€™m rowing against the current but I dislike stimulants in general. I feel like the motivation, attention and mood they give is the mood, attention they borrowed from future. All the stimulation of the neurons shouldnā€™t be good long term I guess. Constant increase in neurophinephrine shouldnā€™t be good for the health and neurological longevity. I am a somehow functioning ADHDer btw. Another thing that made me question them is ADHD community in general approaching them as if theyā€™re magic pills. You know ADHD and the seeking behavior. I question its sustainability.

@mnben87 Do you think there are still benefits of EOD injection on long esters like E or C?

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Broscience says that Mast acts as an anti-estrogen. Whether that is true or not, I donā€™t know but its possible. You really need to do some blood work now instead of guessing.

No, I did not. I never have had any issues with my mast/test combo. Sorry I canā€™t be of more help.

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Yeah, there are I believe. There are a few that do better with less injections, but many guys report more stable feeling. Smaller more frequent injections should result in shorter spikes, and higher troughs. I do Test E EOD.

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Actually low dosages of prescription stimulants with the caveat of methamphetamine (desoxyn in USA if prescribed) arenā€™t neurotoxic to neurotypical or neuroatypical individuals.

Due to the lack of sensitivity to dopamine ADD/ADHD people grapple with, all stimulants do is bring your dopaminergic signalling up to par with a neurotypical individual (this is laymens terms).

The catecholaminergic release mediated by stims when taken properly isnā€™t much of a worry provided youā€™re healthy. Thereā€™s a plethora of studies, meta analysis etc touching this subject. Provided you arenā€™t hypertensive, donā€™t have cardiac autonomic dysfunction, you donā€™t have transient arrhytymia etc stimulants arenā€™t contraindicated.

Though you donā€™t need to take them, however thereā€™s a very strong correlation between ADHD/ADD kids and adults taking stimulants and a lower incidence of drug use, risky sexual behaviour, impulsive/reckless decision making, improved performance in school, college and in the workplace, superior social skilks etc.

People like you or I arenā€™t taking stimulants to get high. Though contrary to popular belief someone with ADHD/ADD can abuse RX stimulants, but they need far more than a neurotypical guy/gal.

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Iā€™ve used them on and off, but cumulatively for well over a decade

I prefer to take them on days when I need to concentrate for long durations. But most days now I take around 5mg dextroamphetamine per day split into 2x 2.5mg dosages.

VERY low dose. If iā€™m studying for end of term exams (college) I might take as much as 20mg in a day though! Max daily dose commonly prescribed is 60mg/day I believe.

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Someone said ADHD three times and I appeared.

You probably wonā€™t get the ADHD symptom relief youā€™re hoping for with TRT. It may help some, but these are two entirely different pathways that only overlap at the fringes.

In Laymenā€™s termsā€¦
ADHD happens because your brain doesnā€™t respond to seratonin properly. ADHD medications stimulate this portion of the brain to increase seratonin response.

TRT can help increase seratonin by means of overall quality of life improvement, but this still does not change the brainā€™s ability to respond to said seratonin.

Also, ADHD medications donā€™t ā€˜borrowā€™ from anything, they just increase neural response to hormones your body makes naturally. This isnā€™t to say there will be no reckoning for long-term use, as it hasnā€™t been studied in decades-long trialsā€¦ but if Iā€™m being honest - Iā€™d rather live a relatively shorter, more successful life, than a longer, unsucessful life. My ADHD meds help me be successful and I stand by that.

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