What about Joe DeFranco’s Westside for Skinny Bastards? Wasn’t that designed specifically for athletes to put on mass and get stronger? It has every necessary movement (unless you count O-Lifts), low volume, and only one leg day.
[quote]74 wrote:
Sophomore, sorry. I just saw the 3 years of lifting experience and figured you were a freshman, really just a late bloomer. My apologies.
[/quote]
Actually you’re wrong again. But keep guessing. You’re starting to narrow it down.
[quote]74 wrote:
Funny, 50% with the curve is passing in engineering but you seem to be failing basic strength and conditioning 101. Although, your late start with the weights and your harping on your academic rigors shows me that you are more likely to read about an exercise than actually perform it.
[/quote]
Yeah, I started lifting 3 years ago. I know. I even knew before you mentioned the fact a few times.
[quote]74 wrote:
The POINT I am trying to make is that the jump squat is a WORTHLESS exercise when it comes to anything ahtletic related when there are so many more effective and safer exercises to use (again, clean pulls, snatch pulls, cleans, snatches, squats with bands). Really, the exercise may be completely useless for any application. There is no defense for the use of a jump squat when training athletes. Like I said, go to the Buckeye weight room and ask about the jump squat and see what they have to say. For that matter, go to any major university strength and conditioning facility and ask about the jump squat. You may learn a few more life leassons, a thing or two about training athletes and see that just because you may have never tried something doesn’t mean you should.
[/quote]
Allright, we are going around in circles here. Let me break down my arguement in as simple terms as possible. You are stating that jump squats are never a good exercise, a statement that I alone could not refute, but was skeptical of. I have observed that Shugs and TC recommend them in their aforementioned article. Shugs is a regular contributor to this website, and that puts him in an elite class that includes guys like Waterbury and Berardi. TC runs the place. Do a search of the web, and other T-Nation contributors such as Ian King and CT feature them in programs. Now, I am sure you are very educated and knowledgable, but these are a handful of top notch guys in the field of training. I understand your case against the jump squat, but, again, I’m going to have to side with these guys.
[quote]74 wrote:
Sxio, how is a lunge/bulgarian squat single joint??? [/quote]
I said that it wasn’t an isolation exercise. At least read the post properly before you start jumping all over people. As you so correctly pointed out, it’s a compound movement. I still fail to see how it is ‘sport specific’.
And Hammerhead, I can say the same to you in regard to lunges. In how many sports do you end up in a lunge position?
74,If you don’t like jumping squats, fine but you’re hardly the definitive guru on weight training. No matter how long you’ve been in the industry, there’s always something new out there that you haven’t seen. If you have so much experience, it should be obvious in your replies, you shouldn’t have to keep telling everyone.
[quote] im 5’10, 155-160 pounds.
[/quote]
Westside for Skinny Bastards!
LA
[quote]redfreddy wrote:
Allright, we are going around in circles here. Let me break down my arguement in as simple terms as possible. You are stating that jump squats are never a good exercise, a statement that I alone could not refute, but was skeptical of. I have observed that Shugs and TC recommend them in their aforementioned article. Shugs is a regular contributor to this website, and that puts him in an elite class that includes guys like Waterbury and Berardi. TC runs the place. Do a search of the web, and other T-Nation contributors such as Ian King and CT feature them in programs. Now, I am sure you are very educated and knowledgable, but these are a handful of top notch guys in the field of training. I understand your case against the jump squat, but, again, I’m going to have to side with these guys.[/quote]
Let me break it down real simple for you…they may write about the exercises that doesn’t mean anyone in the field of strength and conditioning uses the exercises for training athletes. As I have stated in previous posts, where in any program that they or any other contributor has written do they use the exercise. They may have mentioned it in the exercises you have never tried article but no one puts them in their programs.
Like I have said, travel to OSU weight room or any other collegiate strength and conditioning facility and you will find out why jump squats are an exercise you have never tried. Jump squats have absolutely no application in strength and conditioning of athletes.
As per my previous post, take your 6 week quarter break and find some of the elite athletes you mentioned in your previous posts that use jump squats in their programs.
Now, enough of going back and forth in circles. Go study, I don’t want you engineering a building that falls down because you were in the bottom %50 of your class after you spent too much time on T-Nation.
[quote]redfreddy wrote:
Allright, we are going around in circles here. Let me break down my arguement in as simple terms as possible. You are stating that jump squats are never a good exercise, a statement that I alone could not refute, but was skeptical of. I have observed that Shugs and TC recommend them in their aforementioned article. Shugs is a regular contributor to this website, and that puts him in an elite class that includes guys like Waterbury and Berardi. TC runs the place. Do a search of the web, and other T-Nation contributors such as Ian King and CT feature them in programs. Now, I am sure you are very educated and knowledgable, but these are a handful of top notch guys in the field of training. I understand your case against the jump squat, but, again, I’m going to have to side with these guys.[/quote]
Let me break it down real simple for you…they may write about the exercises that doesn’t mean anyone in the field of strength and conditioning uses the exercises for training athletes. As I have stated in previous posts, where in any program that they or any other contributor has written do they use the exercise. They may have mentioned it in the exercises you have never tried article but no one puts them in their programs.
Like I have said, travel to OSU weight room or any other collegiate strength and conditioning facility and you will find out why jump squats are an exercise you have never tried. Jump squats have absolutely no application in strength and conditioning of athletes.
As per my previous post, take your 6 week quarter break and find some of the elite athletes you mentioned in your previous posts that use jump squats in their programs.
Now, enough of going back and forth in circles. Go study, I don’t want you engineering a building that falls down because you were in the bottom %50 of your class after you spent too much time on T-Nation.
[quote]Sxio wrote:
74 wrote:
Sxio, how is a lunge/bulgarian squat single joint???
I said that it wasn’t an isolation exercise. At least read the post properly before you start jumping all over people. As you so correctly pointed out, it’s a compound movement. I still fail to see how it is ‘sport specific’.
And Hammerhead, I can say the same to you in regard to lunges. In how many sports do you end up in a lunge position?
74,If you don’t like jumping squats, fine but you’re hardly the definitive guru on weight training. No matter how long you’ve been in the industry, there’s always something new out there that you haven’t seen. If you have so much experience, it should be obvious in your replies, you shouldn’t have to keep telling everyone.
[/quote]
Like I have said before find any strength and conditioning program that uses jump squats in the training of their athletes and let me know. People may write about jump squats in articles of exercises you have never tried but they never put them in any of their training programs. Please find one that TC or Shugart used jump squats.
To reply to your question of when do you end up in a lunge position in sports? When do you end up in a parallel squat postion in sports, when do you wind up in a bench press position in sports, when do you wind up in a split jerk position in sports, when do you wind up in an overhead squat position in sports. Do you see where I am going with this you dumb son of a bitch. The only sport specific training for sports is the sport itself. Everything else is just complementary.
I completely agree there is always something new out there. You just need to be intelligent enough to examine it in a cost-benefit relationship. Why would you complete jump squats when you could more safely and effectively complete snatch pulls, clean pulls, squats with bands, box squats with bands, cleans, close grip snatches, snatches, etc to increase explosive strength/power off the floor.
The reason I have to continue to repeat myself is that you seem to only view things your way. I’m sorry you only seem to see things the way they are written about by your favorite contributors. Like I have said before find a strength and conditioning department that uses jump squats, I would be interested in your findings. Everything you guys post is based on your opinions, with redfreddy’s 3 years of experience and your 5 years of experience. Venture into a true strength and conditioning facility where athletes train and see how many times you see jump squats.
Until you have evidence of jump squats being used in any strength and condition program or in any program written about on T-Nation I will stand by previous posts that the jump squat is completely USELESS in the training of athletes.
Hahaha, you’re calling me a dumb son of a bitch? That’s… mature. Your co-workers must love you. Especially as you’re like this after “10 years of experience”.
I especially like how you have no evidence but your opinion. Which I think many have now probably lost respect for with your ranting in this thread.
[quote]Sxio wrote:
Hahaha, you’re calling me a dumb son of a bitch? That’s… mature. Your co-workers must love you. Especially as you’re like this after “10 years of experience”.
I especially like how you have no evidence but your opinion. Which I think many have now probably lost respect for with your ranting in this thread. [/quote]
The evidence I have is this, as previously stated in my posts. In 10 years of collegiate/professional strength and conditioining and sports physical therapy I have NEVER seen jump squats used in any type of athletic program. That’s 10 years of conferences, journal reading, and conversations with professionals in the field of strength and conditioning. Where is your evidence. You can’t even find a workout on THIS site that has included jump squats.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE find me any strength and conditioning program that uses jump squats. I’ll give you the same 6 weeks that redfreddy is getting with his time off from school. You will never find anything.
I’m not trying to win a popularity contest by being liked. I am trying to present a practical viewpoint of a worthless exercise.
[quote]74 wrote:
redfreddy wrote:
Like I have said, travel to OSU weight room or any other collegiate strength and conditioning facility and you will find out why jump squats are an exercise you have never tried. Jump squats have absolutely no application in strength and conditioning of athletes.
As per my previous post, take your 6 week quarter break and find some of the elite athletes you mentioned in your previous posts that use jump squats in their programs.
[/quote]
I heard you the first time. It is still a red herring.
I made a statement (that there is nothing inherently wrong with jump squats) based on credible sources. If you don’t trust my sources, that’s your call.
[quote]Sxio wrote:
Hahaha, you’re calling me a dumb son of a bitch? That’s… mature. Your co-workers must love you. Especially as you’re like this after “10 years of experience”.
I especially like how you have no evidence but your opinion. Which I think many have now probably lost respect for with your ranting in this thread. [/quote]
You are the same fool who didn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground with the guy who posted about his mother’s AC separation. It wasn’t until Dr. Ryan confirmed all of my previous posts on that question than it finally dropped off the board. So please, as I have stated before it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool than to open your mouth and remove any doubt.
All you give on this site is your opinion and I am sorry but 5 years of being a personal trainer doesn’t count for shit in my book. I spend my whole day next to a gym with personal trainers who have their clients completing “exercises I have never tried before” that don’t make a drop of sense. The reason you have never tried something is that there are better ways to do it. You have yet to argue my point that snatch pulls, clean pulls, squats with bands do the same thing as jump squats only more effectively and safer.
So as stated before can you please provide any evidence of jump squats being used to strength train athletes?
[quote]Sxio wrote:
Hahaha, you’re calling me a dumb son of a bitch? That’s… mature. Your co-workers must love you. Especially as you’re like this after “10 years of experience”.
[/quote]
I am like this after 10 years of experience because I have to constantly spend my day “uneducating” patients about the stupid things they learn from their personal trainers.
[quote]Sxio wrote:
Hahaha, you’re calling me a dumb son of a bitch? That’s… mature. Your co-workers must love you. Especially as you’re like this after “10 years of experience”.
[/quote]
Where is your sport specific rebuttal now? Like I said you know a lot of catch phrases and nifty exercises but you don’t have a clue how to properly train an athlete.
[quote]redfreddy wrote:
74 wrote:
redfreddy wrote:
Like I have said, travel to OSU weight room or any other collegiate strength and conditioning facility and you will find out why jump squats are an exercise you have never tried. Jump squats have absolutely no application in strength and conditioning of athletes.
As per my previous post, take your 6 week quarter break and find some of the elite athletes you mentioned in your previous posts that use jump squats in their programs.
I heard you the first time. It is still a red herring.
I made a statement (that there is nothing inherently wrong with jump squats) based on credible sources. If you don’t trust my sources, that’s your call.[/quote]
Than do it. Also, why don’t you credible sources use this exercise in any programs that they design?
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460127
not TC or Shugs, but here is an Ian King routine that recommends jump squats.
Certainly not for everyone, but a viable option for many, jump squats are a great exercise.
LA
[quote]redfreddy wrote:
74 wrote:
redfreddy wrote:
Like I have said, travel to OSU weight room or any other collegiate strength and conditioning facility and you will find out why jump squats are an exercise you have never tried. Jump squats have absolutely no application in strength and conditioning of athletes.
As per my previous post, take your 6 week quarter break and find some of the elite athletes you mentioned in your previous posts that use jump squats in their programs.
I heard you the first time. It is still a red herring.
I made a statement (that there is nothing inherently wrong with jump squats) based on credible sources. If you don’t trust my sources, that’s your call.[/quote]
They never said there wasn’t anything wrong with jump squats, they just said they were an exercise you have never tried.
What benefit do you get from using jump squats? Explosive strength? Speed strength? Can’t all of this be acccomplished much more safely with squats with bands. If you like jump squats, why don’t you do throwing bench presses? Because it is unsafe to catch a bar, so you use bands in order to maximally accelerate the bar through the whole movement. Do you think the same thing would apply to jump squats? Why would you want to jump with a weight that will drive down into your spine when you could accomplish a much better result by using the bands with your squat. Think about it.
[quote]
I made a statement (that there is nothing inherently wrong with jump squats) based on credible sources. If you don’t trust my sources, that’s your call.[/quote]
I am not doubting or questioning their knowledge only the realistic application of jump squats to an athletic strength and conditioning program.
[quote]LA wrote:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460127
not TC or Shugs, but here is an Ian King routine that recommends jump squats.
Certainly not for everyone, but a viable option for many, jump squats are a great exercise.
LA
[/quote]
There’s one. Now look at the date of the article. Do you think he may possible change something today as bands were not as mainstream 4+ years ago as they are today. Safer and more effective ways to accomplish the same thing.
Don Alessi
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=188id2
John Davies
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=215comp2
Christian Thibaudeau
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=240bic2
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=229mon2
finally!
Exercises You’ve Never Tried, Volume 5
by Chris Shugart and TC
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=239exer2
[quote]LA wrote:
Don Alessi
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=188id2
John Davies
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=215comp2
Christian Thibaudeau
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=240bic2
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=229mon2
finally!
Exercises You’ve Never Tried, Volume 5
by Chris Shugart and TC
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=239exer2
[/quote]
Again, dates. Why is it that every jump squat picture shows a demonstration with an empty bar? I wonder why? And the load in Thibaudeau’s article, 45-70 pounds? You can use 2 35# DB’s. Hardly presents any challenge and eliminates the bar on the back. Again, the exercise is not bad but it has no practical application in athletic strength and conditioning. All of these authors write articles for their website (T-Nation). Don’t you think they have a vested interest in you returning to their site to read more articles?
So, the more they write the more frequently you return. Strength and conditioning coaches only have a vested interest in wins and that is why you will never see a strength and conditioning program for athletes with jump squats.