I always thought Capuera (sp?) was pretty cool. Its the type of fighting that the brazilian slaves created to look like dancing, but when used effectively as a fighting tactic works very well.
listen up, do u think they show everything bruce lee ever did on some A&E show, comeon now. knocking someone in a chair was just a demonstration, but he wasn’t going all out. just a movie, lol, really now, did you know they had to actually slow the film down cause bruce lee was so fast the camera couldn’t catch his moves. just a movie, lol. he showed grappling skills, and it showed the first tapp out scene ever, years and years before any ufc was ever born.
http://judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm
Check that link out. . . got some interesting reading on that.
The truth is that it’s more about the person than the art. People can argue until they’re blue in the face about which martial art is better but Bruce Lee would have been Bruce Lee if he’d never branched away from Kung Fu.
Masahiko Kimura would have been Masahiko Kimura had he chosen to do Karate rather than Judo.
The biggest thing is pick something that suits you mentally and physically. I personally feel that you’re better off learning from arts that specialize in areas rather than arts that try to integrate the areas. By specializing in grappling (judo) far more development can be done on grappling than an art that attempts to integrate. I’m not knocking MMA type styles I just feel that to get the most out of an MMA type school you should already be skilled in at least one art. Then you can truly take advantage of the strange montage that is MMA. If you’re already a good boxer and a good wrestler then going to an MMA school (or anything that attempts to integrate, hapkido for ex.) will allow you to learn the best ways to use what you know.
Going straight into MMA provides info overload for too many people and too steep a learning curve to make you quickly effective.
STU
While it’s great to be strong in one area or another (ground/ standup), and good school can put them together with the right teaching method. One of the biggest problems I have seen, is to much specialization.
I still see too many guys with excellent ground skills with little or no standup, and vice versa. I also see too much specialization in the ground game. Too many guys who are into BJJ and or wrestling, and not a mix of the two.
The key is simplicity, basic punches, basic kicks, basic ground work, basic sumbmissions and how to transition between the two. I have seen some guys with no fight experience, turn into well rounded fighters in under year.
The most important training that one needs to do ionce the basic skills are there, is getting in mat/ring time. Without it, good luck.
too fast for the camera?
i’d be careful believing everything i read.
Every time BigConan speaks a Rhoades Scholar has a stroke.
bigconan??? not sure who this fellow is. regarding the slowing down of the film, when making his movies, this is well documented. and even talked about it in the A&E special. he was that fast.
MR:
“Bruce Lee never intended to fight UFC style. His methods were meant for quickly ending a street confrontation without being on the ground. Completely different idea and a much more practical one than grappling in a real world application.”
Who the hell are these mythical guys that can avoid going to the ground at will, and fight off gangs of hoodlums with chains and clubs? It’s ridiculous.
Grappling is not something you get to decide if you want to do. It happens extremely often, and I have frequently taken my rather good boxer friend to the ground relatively unharmed.
Could Bruce Lee fight? Probably. Could he fight well? Possibly. Could he beat Minotauro or Vitor Belfort? Of course he couldn’t, he was a small Chinese kung fu guy.
Stucross:
“I think people should be weary when preaching about what Bruce Lee could and couldn’t do if you haven’t read all about him and studied the same or similar philosophies that he did. And if you are wondering yes I have and I have been doing Wing Chun for the past 7 years as well as learning the Daoist meditation of Qi-Gong.”
So what you are basically telling us is that you completely missed the whole idea of finding out what worked for you instead of just being a copycat?
“Lee actually was a very accomplished Wing Chun pupil but found what he thought to be flaws in the style. He developed and used his own style of Jeet Kun Do”
This is not true as far as I know.
Bruce Lee started Jun Fan Kung Fu. This was his own style of Kung fu, though it was very similar to WC. It wasn’t until later that he created the concept of Jeet Kune Do, which wasn’t, as you say, a specific style of fighting, but rather an idea of applying what was useful and discarding the rest. As such one persons “jkd” would depend on his strength, speed, exposure to different arts, etc. I even understand that Bruce Lee only reluctantly named his “style” in fear that people would think that they had to do what he did.
“I could preach forever about why Lee would destroy any of the UFC or anyone really”
You’d be an idiot to try to do that. First of all, all your arguments would come unsubstantiated because nothing much is known about Bruce’s actual fighting ability. Second, your claims could never be tested because Bruce is dead, and as such probably not currently much of a fighter at all.
You are a typical idol worshipper and have without criticism swallowed much of the stuff people have told you about Bruce Lee, probably mostly because of some infatuation with eastern philosophy and such.
“Wing Chun will teach you how to read opponents movements before they happen,”
I just have to ask. Have you seen the fight between Emin Boztepe and Leung Ting?
When I saw that I knew everything I ever needed to know about WC.
“you will be able to see what they will attack with next before they actually do it because you can read the energy movements in their bodies where their next movement is coming from.”
That’s all well and good. But I have never seent the slightest indication that Wing Chun’ers can actually fight. As such I have concluded that your claims are either inaccurate or that they don’t have a whole lot of actual fighting application.
“Its the little Shoalin monk living in the temple on the hill somewhere in China that you would never fuck with!!”
You’re right, I wouldn’t. But Tank Abbott probably would, and he’d crush that orange-robed celibate tree-hugger.
KnightRT:
“Find yourself a knowledgeable and personable tutor; someone who’s in it for the sake of the art. That’ll make or break your experience.”
This is both good advice and not so good advice.
It would be totally possible to find an extremely nice and personable TKD teacher. However that doesn’t really change the fact that TKD is an extremely impractical martial art, that by and large does not work anywhere off the mat.
Martial arts are not about knowing techniques, it’s about figting. You won’t learn how to fight by drilling axe kicks till the sun sets. The ONLY way you’ll learn is to actually fight, as such sparring with very few rules is absolutely necessary at least pretty frequently. Add this to your list, and I’m with you. (unless the goal is something other than fighting ability).
/Jacob
Well, if you’re not sure who he is, then why are you responding?
Okay…my turn to pipe up about this…I just have to mention one thing I saw in the brief browsing of this topic…Let’s just say that one should not discount the credibility nor the street effectiveness of a school that does forms and no sparring of any sort (trust me I know about this one).
The theory of these schools is that whatever one needs to do in a given situation will be done because of the amount of time devoted to your training ingrains the ability in you. It will come out when you need it…not before nor after. Also, they say that sparring actually programs one to not strike with the power one can generate.
When we spar, we don’t want to hurt our fellow classmates…so we hold back. When we hold back enough times, we actually subconsciously program ourselves to not strike in full force in a real situation. THus, our blows are never as powerful as they should/could be.
Now for full contact sparring…either we really risk injury (with no pads of any sort…SUPER dangerous)…or we limit our ability…(no eye gouges/finger strikes/groin strikes/knee strikes) because of the gear required…(we can’t use a full-on snake or crane or mantis strike with our hands in boxing gloves or in any type of gloves as a matter of fact.).
hehehe this was meant to be kinda short, but I hope I was able to demonstrate my point of view…
But that being said…do what you like to do and go where you get the best feelings of fulfillment.
Now about your real question, “I’ll be Back” to you on that one…(can never resist an original “Terminator” quote…especially that one.).
Peace.
By the way…Jet Li is too fast for the camera too…a casting director friend of mine told me this. he actually had to slow himself down…
More on the martial arts from me…It’s one of my 4 favorite topics…=)
jackedhulk: “hatsumi masaaki” look it up.
sackocrack: capoeira is a bitchin martial art. definately one of the most athletic and beautifull to watch and while i would never want to challenge one of those dancers w/ their hands tied, i think their are a number of styles more practical. still cool to watch though.
Found this on Charles Staley’s website. Pretty interesting. Sorry about the big cut and paste. Came out kinda messy. - TEK
“Bruce Lee: Best of the Best?”
by Christopher D. Hess, SMAC
“Be aware that a halo has to fall only a few inches to be a noose.” --Dan McKinnon
Introduction
Bruce Lee is the personality most associated with the martial arts. Both
martial art enthusiasts and non-practioners consider the deceased actor as the
ultimate martial artist. Although he did not compete in tournaments or submit
to any empirical conventions wherein his ability could be objectively
assessed, he is frequently referred to as a superior athlete and the strongest
fighter “pound for pound.” A close examination of his exercise regime and
personal character reveal a committed athlete and martial artist but not to
the mythic proportions usually ascribed to him. This article will review
Lee’s physical strength, aerobic capacity, and individual character to assess
whether he should be considered the “best of the best”.
I. Physical strength. Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed
an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears
he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength
training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using
95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition
maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the
25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males
(Hatfield, 1993).
This type of estimation for the 1 repetition maximum is standard among
athletic trainers to assess the strength level of a wide range of athletes,
both professional and amateur.While some chart estimates may vary slightly
from one to another, most are within approximately 10% of one another.
Some readers, who are accustomed to viewing Lee as possessing epic strength,
may assert that Lee probably was not using his maximum ability at that time.
It is therefore noted that this regime occurred prior to Lee’s well-known back
injury. Furthermore, if Lee was capable of performing the squat exercise with
more than 95 pounds for 10 repetitions, one must question why this was part of
his established routine or, alternatively, why he would be committing himself
to a method of underachievement by using too low an amount of weight to
stimulate the greatest strength gains possible.
To further demonstrate this below-average lower body strength, the estimated
130 pound maximum estimate would mean Lee was not prepared for plyometric
training (a type of explosiveness exercise) which requires the ability to
squat a minimum of 1.5 times the body weight (Allerheiligen, 1994).In other
words, at an approximate body weight of 140 pounds, Lee would need to have
squatted 210 pounds to engage in plyometric training based on recognized
standards for training of athletes by today’s standards.
Lee’s upper body strength is another matter altogether and, when understood
from a sport science perspective, partially explains his on-screen appeal.
Once again, according to the program used during his 1965 stay in Hong Kong,
Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This
would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would
place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class.From a
training perspective, one must question how a discrepancy of this proportion,
between his upper and lower body strength, evolved in Lee’s training.
Nevertheless, it demonstrates that his upper body strength was developed to
its maximum potential.
Numerous observers of Bruce Lee, such as deceased Kenpo master Ed Parker,
have stated Lee was perhaps the strongest “pound for pound” martial artist.
Sport science can confirm this possibility. Numerous assessments of athletes
throughout the past few decades have confirmed that smaller athletes are
proportionately stronger than larger ones.This is due to the fact that a
muscle’s maximum contractile force is proportional to its cross-sectional
area.In laymen’s terms, this means that a smaller athlete has a higher
strength to mass ratio than larger athletes.
Stated practically, as body size increases, body mass increases more rapidly
than does muscle strength. In a colloquial sense, it could be said this is
similar to the “law of diminishing returns.” Certain martial art film stars
such as Jean Claude Van Damme and Jeff Speakman may look better due to their
mass, but their actual strength, in proportion to body weight, would be less
than a relatively light person such as Lee.Incredible speed is inherent to
superior strength at a low body weight.
Since Lee never weighed more than 143 pounds yet possessed superior upper
body strength in the 100th percentile, this would account for the lightening
speed he demonstrated on film. With more mass, he would not have been as fast
and would not have appeared so on film.
II. Aerobic capacity. Lee was known to advocate running as the best
cardiovascular exercise (Lee, 1975) and is reported to have run 2 miles in 15
minutes or 6 miles in 45 minutes (Storm, 1986; Lee, 1989).In either case,
this would mean an approximate pace of a 7 minute 30 second mile. This pace
equates to a VO2 max of approximately 50 ml/kg/min (Noakes, 1991). The VO2
max is a method employed by sport scientists to estimate an individual’s
maximum capacity to use oxygen during extended exercise.
The average VO2 max among healthy young men is between 45 and 55. Lee’s
estimated value of 50, based on his running times, would place him squarely in
the middle of average healthy young men. The values among elite runners and
cross-country skiers is usually a range between 75 and 85 ml/kg/min. In other
words, Lee’s aerobic capacity was quite average. Once again, certain readers
who are accustomed to viewing Lee in epic proportions may assert that Lee was
not running his fastest and was capable of more. Considering his personality,
if this were true it arguably would have been publicized somewhere.
In contrast to Lee’s estimated aerobic capacity, a Canadian research study
published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62
(Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite
kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a
person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race. It is a curious
notion, therefore, that Lee was considered to be an aerobic phenomenon.
Current elite kickboxing competitors register higher aerobic capacity than did
Bruce Lee.
III.Personal Character. The great karate master Gichin Funakoshi stated that
martial artists should show great concern for family and relationships. “The
mind of the true karateka should be imbued with (family) concern before he
turns his attention to his body and the refinement of his technique”
(Funakoshi, 1975).
In contrast, Lee is reported to have been involved in several extramarital
affairs and, in fact, died in the apartment of a woman with whom he has
intimately involved (Beeckler, 1996).
Lee also died without a will (intestate) which left his widow with almost a
decade of legal battles to settle the matter of his estate. While some may
argue that his early, unanticipated, death would have precluded finalizing a
will, Lee was conscious enough of his own mortality that he purchased
significant amounts of life insurance just months prior to his death.
And while Funakoshi admonishes martial artists to render honor to their
families before refining themselves, when Bruce Lee did refine himself
physically it was not in a wholly honorable fashion. In addition to the
prescription medications Cortisone and Dilantin, he is also reported to have
used anabolic steroids and diuretics to achieve his physique (Beeckler, 1996).
It is also documented that he was a user of marijuana during the final three
years of his life and it was discovered in his body during the autopsy.
Why the Best of the Best?
Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled
no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of
his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone.
Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but
is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective
sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning
if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in
Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but
would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood
court?
Today’s martial athletes can demonstrate their abilities in an empirical
manner. For example, the IMPAX instrument records the total of punches and
kicks delivered in a certain period of time and the total force of a strike or
kick. The elite kick boxers surveyed in the earlier referenced study were
objectively assessed regarding their aerobic and anaerobic capacity as well as
maximum knee torque. In other words, the tools exist today to determine who
is the best of the best among martial artists. For better or worse, Lee
escaped objective evaluation.
It’s tremendously subjective but Bruce Lee is arguably considered the most
noteworthy martial artist due to his magnetism on film. Regardless of any
opinion about his actual martial art talent, or lack of empirical
demonstration regarding his ability, he expressed himself on the screen in a
manner that no martial artist has equaled. And, by combining his upper body
strength and light body weight, he possessed uncanny speed that visually made
believers of anyone who saw him in action.
Reassessing the Usefulness of the Bruce Lee Myth
In one sense, Lee is forever a tremendous asset to the martial art community
as his image and myth draws people to the arts. These fledgling martial
artists may then be retained for more noble and enduring reasons than a
desire to emulate someone whose example is questionable upon closer
examination.
Once a martial artist reviews the reality of Lee’s strength, aerobic capacity
and personal character, a sober question must be addressed: should Lee’s
myth be actively deconstructed among novice martial artists? Perhaps not.
That may be a function of maturity and be better emphasized in the later
stages of training and spiritual development within the arts. Instead, people
need a visual image to connect to and, until they begin to see their own
selves in growing competency, may need the myth of Bruce Lee to sustain their
training efforts.
References
Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (70)
Wathen, Dan (1994). Load Assignment. In Essentials of Strength Training and
Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (436)
Hatfield, Fredrick C., Ph. D. (1993). Fitness: The Complete Guide.
International Sport Sciences Association, California. (119) .
Allerheiligen, William B. (1994). Speed Development and Plyometric Training.
In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics,
Illinois. (321)
Lee, Bruce (1975). Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Ohara, Burbank, California. ( )
Storm, Mitch; Black Belt Magazine, The Editors (1986). The Legendary Bruce
Lee. Ohara, Burbank, CA. (53)
Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (54)
Noakes, Timothy, M.D. (1991). The Lore of Running. Leisure Press, Champaign,
Illinois. (42)
Tiidus, Peter M.; Zabukovec, Randy (1995). “Physiological and Anthropometric
Profile of Elite Kickboxers”. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research,
(November) 240-242.
Funakoshi, Gichin (1975). Karate-Do: My Way of Life. Kodansha International,
Tokyo, Japan. (102)
Beeckler, Tom (1996). Unsettled Matters: The Life and Death of Bruce Lee.
Gilderoy Publications, Lompoc, California. (144; 182)
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: In addition to the martial arts, Mr. Hess is a licensed cycling coach who regularly
works with successful endurance athletes with tiny vertical jumps. He is the author of Total Quality Martial Arts:
Pathways to Continuous Improvement.
I have read that article from Staley’s web site, and as far as I am concerned, it’s a load of crap.
I need to read some more about this Hess guy. I found this interesting tidbit in an online article by him:
“A Program Prescription”
“Based on my research, I have concluded that the essential strength training exercises for martial artists include lat pull-downs, bent-over rows, one-arm dumbell curls, shoulder shrugs, and the upright row for the upper body. For the lower body I recommend squats, lunges, hamstring curls and quadriceps extensions.”
What a wealth of info.
rep9210
Now now sunshine,
why don’t you just take a deap breath and relax!!
Seems to me that you are very good at disecting and criticising other peoples point of view without offering much of a view yourself,
but that’s fine if that is what you need to do to make yourself feel good. And although I admire Bruce alot I am not obsessed by him, if I were I would be doing Jeet Kun Do and trying to star in movies.
Another thought for everyone…Martial arts isn’t so much about the fighting… It was developed as a way to perfect the body and mind, to discipline them both by performing intricate specified movements which assist your path to enlightenment. It was done via a fighting style because at the time it was necessary to defend yourself from barbarian attacks etc.
Therefore its not about the fighting its about enlightenment. I’m not trying to tell anyone why they should be doing whatever they do just supplying some trivia and food for thought…
I don’t care about Bruce Lee. He brought martial arts into the mainstream in the US. Thank you Bruce. I am still a fan, but I would never take JKD simply for the fact that no one really knows how to teach it. He just adopted what worked, and we all know that.
I think I’m going to visit my first place Tuesday night. It is submission grappling night, so that should be fun!!
wow… all this talk about karate.
what about crazy? us koreans are fuckin nuts and we kick a lot of ass.
at least that’s what my dad would tell me about his days in the ROK army.
hahahaha… crazy, that was funny.
“I just have to ask. Have you seen the fight between Emin Boztepe and Leung Ting?
When I saw that I knew everything I ever needed to know about WC.”
No I haven’t seen that fight - mainly because it never happened. The fight was between Emin and William Cheung. (Easy to confuse the two since both are frauds)
Either way, that’s awfully close minded of you. Do you taste ONE rotten apple and assume EVERY apple is rotten?
There’s a LOT of bad wing chun around - there are a LOT of people teaching it who have only learned part of the system and/or have completely missed the point of what they have learned.
Just because MOST of it is crap doesn’t mean ALL of it is. Pretty much 90% of everything on this planet is crap anyway. Sad thing is for a MA - especially a relatively internal one - it can be very hard for the uninitiated to tell the difference between a mcdojo and the real deal.
If you can find a school under the direct lineage of Tsui Tseung Tin or Wong Shun Leung you should be able to learn genuine wing chun which won’t get you killed. Otherwise you’re wasting your time.
1 bad apple in a bowl means the whole batch is bad. It’s a gas, ethylene, that causes fruit to go bad. I’m just giving you shit, mook, but that’s the truth. 
I’m going to go view as many different styles as I can, and decide from there.
hehe you’ve actually got a point though
Keep in mind that the bowl represents a particular school, not the entire art.