Yes…Pride and UFC type fighting is very unrealistic. Mixing it up with few rules has absolutely nothing to do with REAL fighting…Being strong, fast, learning to choke someone out or knock them out is not at all realistic enough for the street …
You need to stick to traditional Karate schools where there is very light or no contact when sparring…Now that will help you in a real fight 
Hi SJOCONN,
Yes, you are correct that many can make the claim of having trained different groups of the military. And, yes I also agree that having done so does not necessarily make your system valid.
In my opinion the military is way behind the martial arts community when it comes to unarmed combat, edged weapon combat, defending against a ballistic weapon, and utilizing environmental weapons.
However, how many can also say that they:
have been inducted into both the Universal Martial Arts Hall of Fame, and United States Hall of Fame on several occasions
Hold a multiple degree black belts in Jiu-jitsu, American Kickboxing (under Joe Lewis), Modern Arnis, Pankration, Ninjutsu (under Robert Bussey), and several others that escape my mind at the moment (check out the site for a list of Shihan Walt Jr’s credentials)
are a certified Cerebral Self Defense instructor under Tony Blauer
helped Frank Shamrock train Maurice Smith for his fight against Mark Coleman (which Smith won by the way)
are considered to be two of the best grapplers alive by other highly skilled and successful martial artists (Frank Shamrock, Joe Lewis, Tony Blauer, Adam Guerra, Keith Hackney to name a few)
Have been doing martial arts since they were able to walk
Have 30+ years of training experience, and 20+ years of teaching experience
Have had black belts from other systems walk into their dojo, take one class and say, “you know what? This is better” and preceed to take off their black belt and strap on a white belt
Have tested and proven their system in countless real fights (and I don’t mean MMA) as well as by sparring with other highly skilled martial artists
Have been contacted, this year, to train the National Security Task Force
etc…
Sorry for the rant, but Shihan Walt and Charlie simply don’t get the publicity nor the recognition they deserve. They are elite level martial artists, who outside of other elite martial artist circles, are virtually unknown.
I will say however, that they have been getting more recognition lately, which is a good thing, and S.E.N.T.O and iCAT are really starting to take off.
Besides, I really only mentioned the military because someone had mentioned that they were interested in what the military does for combat.
In regards to several other comments made,
Personally I really don’t think BJJ is all that phenomenal for grappling. I think they’re good, but just watching a lot of BJJ guys fight, they don’t seem to see (or perhaps know about) a lot of things that they could be doing on the ground. I have really only seen one, maybe two BJJ guys who I thought were really good, and even then, I know guys who are way better.
I wholeheartedly agree with the comment that MMA is a completely different animal than real fighting, but there are a lot of things that MMA practitioners do that will also work in the street, there is just a lot that they don’t do as well.
Lorisco,
you wrote:
“. An effective offense is your defense - meaning that you are always at a disadvantage if you wait to defend an attack. To adequate defend an attack you have to be quicker in recognizing an attack than your opponent is in delivering his attack, and you have to be quicker in reacting to that attack. The bottom line is that it is better to attack first. Your chances of winning will always be better”.
Well, in most cases I think you’re right. Action is almost always faster than reaction and if you have a high degree of skill, you will usually come out on top if you attack first.
However, this advice does not always hold true. What if you opponent is a counter attack type of fighter? Or you are much taller than them? In these cases attacking first might be just what they want you to do.
Which brings up a good point; there is no surefire formula to winning a fight.
That is why someone needs technique, experience, adaptability, conditioning, and the humility to know that you always have more to learn.
I completely agree with your second point.
Your third point is also correct, assuming all else are also equal. A highly skilled smaller weaker fighter will defeat a poorly skilled larger stronger fighter (assuming the smaller fighter has a degree of skill that can overcome the larger fighter’s strength).
Point number four, well I’m not necessarily in agreement with that, but I know where you’re coming from. This is the reason why techniques such as the “spear” or “shield” have become so prominant in recent years. They are based on the natural reaction of putting up the hands to protect the head.
However, there are many movements in martial arts that are not necessarily simple (at least to the average person) that are still very effective in combat. The trick is to train them to the point of motor memory. This way you don’t have to think about doing them, your body just goes on auto pilot and does them for you. This however takes countless hours and thousands upon thousands of repetitions to achieve.
I also agree with five, but once again, there is nothing wrong with practicing movements against either cooperative opponents, in the air, or on bags in order to perfect the mechanics of the movement.
Think about it; take a professional athlete like Michael Jordan. Do you think he only practiced dribbling and shooting during games/scrimmages once he became a professional? No. He spent countless hours practicing them either by himself, or with cooperating opponents (drills).
Sparring is important, but it is not where you should be learning to perfect the movements, but where you should be learning how, when, and why to use them.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]Darshu42 wrote:
I agree with what you are saying. As American’s our thought of strength involves flexing muscles. I still have trouble breaking free of this. I have to remind myself that “it is good to be strong, but better to be good.”
However, the hard to soft progression, as I understand it comes from the way KungFu and TaiChi are taught in China. When I was there, it was explained that to beome a TaiChi master, you are expected to learn several form of KungFu first and that the base of knowledge would help your studies of TaiChi to progress faster.
Or it was something to that effect. There was a bit of a language barrier from the guy who was expalining this. He was just a janitor at a school, but his TaiChi demonstration he showed us was more fluid and bablanced than any instructors I’ve seen in the States.
[/quote]
Hmmm… You actually just reminded me of something. If I remember correctly the tradition was that tai chi it was not to be taught to people under the age of 20…? Something along those lines. I guess my experience is different from yours and seifu’s because i started tai chi when i was about 10. I also learned a bit about Hsing-I another internal/soft art. I liked the internal arts but my teacher (my father) was not physically capable of showing me more. What can i say though? It was the path that i have taken and it works for me. But there are more internal arts then just tai chi. Hsing-I and Pa Kwa are other(i would say preferred) alternatives. The downside is i doubt very much that you will find anyone willing to train you. Pa Kwa is very secretive and you are expected to uphold an oath that you will never practice in public (again my experience for what its worth).
To steal a movie line: “the real teachers don’t advertise in the yellow pages.”
Forms have their place as a means of transmitting an art from one practioner to another.
Kata are a very demanding form of physical discipline.
There was a time in Okinawa when people had to meet in secret to train in Karate. If they were caught they could be summarily killed.
A teacher might teach one kata to a student one night, then they would go off and practice the moves at home. It could be a few weeks or months before you might get to train again with your teacher again.
Boxers shadow box. It’s basically the same thing.
Kata gives you a way to train without a partner. You can practice forms for hours.
I’ve seen people who were fairly good at Kata but who were worthless as fighters.
But I’ve also seen Karate ka at tournaments win a Kata trophy then go over to the ring and win at Kumite.
Joe Lewis used to be a dominant force in Kata besides Kumite.
The art is one thing that is sorely missing in UFC and Pride.
It’s some what akin to what happened to body building competitions. Back in the day lifting was part of the competition. Art and physical were one.
Traditionally in Okinawa training was very physically strenuous. In the Isshinryu classes I’ve trained in pain is part of the tradition.
Something that Isshinryu shares with Wing Chun is that it is what is known as an in-fighting style.
Some of the weird hand movements that are in Kata that are often referred to as “sets” or “repositioning” by unknowledgable teachers. Those are often Chin Na joint locking techniques. The eight Isshinryu hand katas have a ton of them.
The reason why. Is that as originally taught. Isshinryu stylists were meant to right up on someone so close that it could go to grappling any moment.
That is why Isshinryu is considered to be a very aggressive system.
It’s also why we use a near verticle fist and we don’t lock out our punches or kicks like every other traditional system out there.
We also don’t wind up our punches or kicks. In other words we are supposed to be nontelegraphic. Unlike the crap you see on TV.
Our punching style is the fastest because it has been pared down to the fewest possible moves.
The true genious of O’sensei Shimabuku was in paring every move down to it’s most essential parts. His minimalist approach and use of natural body positioning is what makes Isshinryu easy to learn quickly. It’s also what makes it fearsome in combat. Because you gain milli seconds in reaction time.
Another Isshinryu advantage is that in a fight as your body’s motor skills deteriorate from stress and excitement it’s the simple, basic, movements that are going to stay with you.
Knees and elbow techniques are an integral part of Isshinryu. If you are so adrenilined up that you can’t elbow someone then there is no hope for you.
The realest fighting between people who knew Karate was at The Rock in Naha’s red light district. Choki Motobu was the king of the rock.
People used to die in those fights.
I wouldn’t take anything away from a professional fighter (UFC Pride)they are tough. But UFC rules do favor grapplers. Thanks John McCain.
The type of training that ufc contestants go through isn’t for everyone. A lot of people wouldn’t thrive in that kind of enviroment. So UFC doesn’t serve the needs or interest of the vast majority of the martial arts community.
It’s certainly not something you could do for a lifetime to benefit your quality of life.
I’d rather be George Foreman than Mohammad Ali right now.
I would just suggest looking around and finding out what you like. The only real way to get good is to actually go to a dojo and get real training.
The money issue can be solved if you look at smaller dojos, especially ones with high ranking senseis. They will often teach the MA for the love of it and to further the knowledge of their students.
One suggestion is that if you live in a big city and have transportation look for places that are outside the city and the suburbs. It may require you to spend a little more car time but it will be worth it. The classes will probably be cheaper and you will probably be able to find a higher ranking sensei; they usually have an aversion to setting up a dojo in the city.
Just rememeber that the only way to find a martial art that you like is to go to a dojo and observe and maybe try for a month or two. If the sensei requires that you sign up for more than a month at a time, leave. He cares more about you than your money.
There is also one other solution to your money issue. Ask the sensei if there is any way that you could pay over the course of the month or if you could get a reduced rate. Most senseis that care about their students will agree to one or both of these options.
Keep fighting,
Monster
Just my 2 cents…All here have good points…I would like to point out that Tai Chi is also a “combat” art in theory…Look at the moves, forms and despite the “slow” practice, it does build muscle memory and speed…It was not originally intended as an old folks exercise…
As an Aikido instructor, I am baised…Aikido is great, and does have combat applications, after about 4 or 5 years of training, you will see this…
Capoeira is also very fun, and a great workout…I found it about 9 years ago…It to has some great moves…
There is no suprem art, unless you believe in Sinanju…
Try all you can…Judo, Boxing, wrestln’, Thai, etc…Learn all you can…As a new student, you are a sponge…Just find a quality instructor, be honest with him, and stick around untill you get bored…then move on until you find the MA that fits you…
A relatively new one that nobody knows about is KFM, the Keysi Fighting Method. It has the same philosophy at Jeet Kune Do except it seems a little more down to earth and modern…for instance, it focuses a great deal on fighting multiple attackers when they are all attacking at once (not like some bullshit arts that claim to defend from multiple attackers Neo style), gun fighting and defense, fighting in night clubs, various improvised weapons (books, ashtrays, tables, condoms, etc.) It also focuses a lot on breaks and severly maiming the opponent…so all in all a pretty fuckin good style. Oh yeah, and it was also used in Batman Begins (not that you see much of it)
[quote]tatu77 wrote:
Just my 2 cents…All here have good points…I would like to point out that Tai Chi is also a “combat” art in theory…Look at the moves, forms and despite the “slow” practice, it does build muscle memory and speed…It was not originally intended as an old folks exercise…
As an Aikido instructor, I am baised…Aikido is great, and does have combat applications, after about 4 or 5 years of training, you will see this…
Capoeira is also very fun, and a great workout…I found it about 9 years ago…It to has some great moves…
There is no suprem art, unless you believe in Sinanju…
Try all you can…Judo, Boxing, wrestln’, Thai, etc…Learn all you can…As a new student, you are a sponge…Just find a quality instructor, be honest with him, and stick around untill you get bored…then move on until you find the MA that fits you…
[/quote]
Aikido? Isn’t that where your partner allows you to throw him into next Tuesday? In other words complete cooperation.
Please correct me if I’m wrong…
that one art, where simplicity and effectivity was the base of it all, that really interests me. but the other posts that suggested to become well rounded is also important. its not right just to know and learn one side of things, becoming well rounded in any area is the most important thing.
guess i just have to start learning that way…the only problem is avoiding the shitty ass money greedy teachers.
What arts teach telegraphic kicks (or punches)?
And how do you defend yourself with a condom against anything but disease?
[quote]ScrambyEggs wrote:
Hmmm… You actually just reminded me of something. If I remember correctly the tradition was that tai chi it was not to be taught to people under the age of 20…? Something along those lines. I guess my experience is different from yours and seifu’s because i started tai chi when i was about 10. I also learned a bit about Hsing-I another internal/soft art. I liked the internal arts but my teacher (my father) was not physically capable of showing me more. What can i say though? It was the path that i have taken and it works for me. But there are more internal arts then just tai chi. Hsing-I and Pa Kwa are other(i would say preferred) alternatives. The downside is i doubt very much that you will find anyone willing to train you. Pa Kwa is very secretive and you are expected to uphold an oath that you will never practice in public (again my experience for what its worth).
To steal a movie line: “the real teachers don’t advertise in the yellow pages.”
[/quote]
Hey ScrambyEggs, if you’re still looking for more CMA training and live anywhere near Sharon, PA, check out Nick Gracenin’s Martial Arts Center.
Even if you’re not that close to Sharon, you should still make it a priority to visit. Coach Gracenin is unbelievably talented, and he teaches a plethora of internal and external styles.
To the original poster: forget looking for a specific style, just find a teacher that is (1) obviously skilled, (2) has skilled students, and (3) that you can get along with easily.
Telegraphing is making a body movement that is unnecessary, that warns your opponent that you are about to strike.
For example, pulling your hand back to wind up a punch is telegraphing. In Isshinryu one practice techinque we use is having our hand at our side, completely relaxed, fingers open, then we bring our hand out in a punch closing our fist as we are throwing the punch.
Here is a practicle application. I am in an encounter with someone (maybe a fender bender or having words in a bar)when without warning he draws his hand back to throw a haymaker.
In that moment I can get a punch off that will disrupt his attack. Provided that my attack goes in a straight line to it’s target.
This technique is almost identical to a Wing Chun one inch punch.
This technique allows you to be able to deal with a sucker punch without going around in an on guard position all the time.
It’s also useful close in, because it allows you to go from joint locking/grappling to punching instantaniously.
To be able to survive at the edge of grappling range all your techniques need to be direct. There can be no wasted or superfluous movements because you don’t have the time or distance.
I can throw a punch from a relaxed position just as fast as from an on guard position.
Another common example of telegraphing happens during kicking. A good fighter will maintain their height, a bad fighter will raise up as they shift their weight onto their supporting leg. That head bobbing up will be my que to start angling.
Most spinning techniques are a terrible form of telegraphing. This is why I have a particular disdain for Tae Kwon Do.
Another is the running start. I cringe everytime I see a kata competitor start running to begin some flashy useless leap kick. It is highly unlikely in this age that you will be attacked by someone on horseback which is what those kicks are meant for.
If a system is well thought out you shouldn’t need to go to multiple teachers before you are any good.
The Isshinryu I learned was very complete. I don’t need any more kicking or punching techniques. We also have a lot of joint locking.
The only system I feel that would make a significant difference in my training now would be Jiu Jutsu. What I would want from that would be a better idea of how to grapple on the ground.
The Jiu Jutsu people have really put a lot of thought and effort into ground fighting. I’d be happy for just one or two good idea’s. I’m sure they have some good stuff.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
I can throw a punch from a relaxed position just as fast as from an on guard position.
[/quote]
Stop it 
I seriously would love to learn Isshinryu but the downside is the closest place that teaches it is too far from me.
Do you know any similar arts? Ill be worried if there arent any other arts that focus on the same factors as Isshinryu.
You can apply Isshinryu principles to any art. Shorin Ryu Karate is very similar. Grandmaster Shimabuku’s younger brother and student Eizo Shimabuku is the Grandmaster of Shobayashi Shorin Ryu. The styles are very simlar.
The Isshinryu Katas, Seisan, Naihanchi, Wansu, Chinto, and Kusanku come from Shorin Ryu.
These Katas are taught in several Okinawan styles of Karate and their descendants. Shotokan uses them, some styles of Tang Soo Do use them.
Jeet Kune Do has similar philosophy. Wing Chun has similarities. Also White Crane Kung Fu.
I pmed you Sifu. Found a couple schools.
Just wanted to keep the boards clean from anything the mods might possible think is spam from me
I figured id Re-Post here instead of starting a new thread.
I was wondering, when it comes to striking, whats best to avoid joint problems(wrist)? Will great form prevent it, or will different methods do so?
My two cents:
I personally like Wing Chun as a quick practical system. If you live in Illinois, there are probably a few school that teach it.
Of course, you have to have an eye for perfection and you have to practice every day in any art you choose. Maybe not intensely, but for perfection’s sake.
I also like tai chi as a simultaneous endeavor, if you’re willing to put in the extra time to do everything, as I said before, perfectly. It is at the outset much more subtle and complex than most other arts, but with a competent teacher it is amazing at teaching whole body awareness. This’ll help for your other art(s). But it’s only worth it if you have the commitment to make the extra time commitment. Otherwise, choose 1 art and go for a few years and then pick up another.
As far as “soft” arts being impractical for self-defense in a real world situation, they are not. They are in fact very practical. The major downside is that the learning curve is much, much steeper. You have to put in 2, 3, maybe even 4 times as much effort and time into it (say about 8-10 years). However, I’ve seen some stuff come out of it that will scramble your brains, against unrehearsed attacks from guy that had competed full contact, and had been studying constantly since he was 5 years old (he’s 26). The problem becomes finding a good teacher, as the combat applications are not very widely taught, or understood. My particular sifu was a closed door disciple of yang tai chi in Hong Kong for a number of years. He’s exceptional, and I’m lucky.
At any rate, if you’ve got the time, even the principles of tai chi for health can give you crossover benefit in terms of “feeling” another art.
The main principle is to apply yourself fully to whatever art you choose and practice it constantly in some form or other (thinking about it, analyzing, etc). And remember to stay relaxed. Relaxation is key to speed.
A general thought is the less ornate the art, the better. That’s one of the things that drew me to wing chun.
Anyway, good luck.
[quote]gibran wrote:
I figured id Re-Post here instead of starting a new thread.
I was wondering, when it comes to striking, whats best to avoid joint problems(wrist)? Will great form prevent it, or will different methods do so?[/quote]
Sorry if anyone missed my new question…does anyone happen to know?
Choose among the 2 or 3 schools closest to you, regardless of style. Now, before flaming me, read on: You are going to have to commit yourself to the art. Are you willing to drive one hour each way, for example, to get to the school of a ‘preferred’ art? Most people will not.
Well one easy solution would be to avoid strkiking where the wrist is involved. (Or go for palm strikes, elbows, shoulder, etc.) I am unsure if you are recovering from an injury and that is why you are worried about wrists but for the most part it is not a common injury. I’ve had a few tweaks of the wrist in boxing and hapkido but that is about it. The big joint that takes damage from poor form is normally the knees. TKD is notorious for this.