[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
i’m thinking if a throw is actually going to be really clean you will need to get some kind of small joint, elbow or shoulder locked up so you can actually lead them around. scrambling for conventional grips in the street just gives me a bad feeling. Like what happens here, its just too messy
That video illustrates almost every reason, straight grappling is not my go to on da streetz. The guy appears to have some game, but it could have gone so, so wrong for him. The bit where brown coat has black coat’s back and the three other dudes crowd around and break it up especially. Contrast this vid with the one Irish posted of the Russian guy. Their skill levels might be comparable, but Russian dude is an a way better spot throughout his deal than brown coat.
It seems to me that whenever you try to go to a lock/throw/takedown against a fully resisting opponent (unless you just grossly outclass them physically) without first softening them up with a few strikes it tends to turn into a clusterfuck. Guys can get really bad leg/knee injuries trying to force hip throws when their footwear doesn’t pivot on dirt/pavement the same way bare feet pivot on smooth mats etc. Generally though, you just end up with this merry go round type scenario where nobody’s going down, nothing’s getting resolved and the chance of something going wrong just keeps increasing as the conflict drags on. No thanks.
[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
i’m thinking if a throw is actually going to be really clean you will need to get some kind of small joint, elbow or shoulder locked up so you can actually lead them around. scrambling for conventional grips in the street just gives me a bad feeling. Like what happens here, its just too messy
[/quote]
That video illustrates almost every reason, straight grappling is not my go to on da streetz. The guy appears to have some game, but it could have gone so, so wrong for him. The bit where brown coat has black coat’s back and the three other dudes crowd around and break it up especially. Contrast this vid with the one Irish posted of the Russian guy. Their skill levels might be comparable, but Russian dude is an a way better spot throughout his deal than brown coat.
It seems to me that whenever you try to go to a lock/throw/takedown against a fully resisting opponent (unless you just grossly outclass them physically) without first softening them up with a few strikes it tends to turn into a clusterfuck. Guys can get really bad leg/knee injuries trying to force hip throws when their footwear doesn’t pivot on dirt/pavement the same way bare feet pivot on smooth mats etc. Generally though, you just end up with this merry go round type scenario where nobody’s going down, nothing’s getting resolved and the chance of something going wrong just keeps increasing as the conflict drags on. No thanks.[/quote]
Exactly. I also wonder how much brown coat committed to those sacrifice throws knowing that he would go down too. The harai makikomi (2nd throw) should have been a finisher
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Ok, sometimes subtext is difficult to convey/read via only text. Maybe if you put a “;-)” instead of a “=D” I would have got that you were joking. :-)[/quote]
Good advice. I normally use that “=D” face to signify that I’m joking/not very serious, but “;-)” would probably show that better.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Still agree with your point about the effectiveness of slamming your opponent’s head into the ground though, nasty tactic, though I would also warn that there is a decent chance of severe brain trauma or even death when using this tactic so I would only use that if you were in a life or death situation. Then again you generally learn how to control your opponent’s fall from doing lots of reps of the takedowns; you had just better have actually practiced your ground fighting skills as well as your throwing skills then as the throw won’t be a fight ender most likely.[/quote]
Well, if I was in a situation where I actually had to use what judo skill I had, it would mean that I feel like I’m in a life or death situation. My first teacher more or less drilled it into his pupils that your judo probably won’t save your life in an actual confrontation and so you shouldn’t get cocky/whatnot (he was dealing with a bunch of college students). So I’d have to be in a rather desperate situation to be trying to throw someone!
[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
Exactly. I also wonder how much brown coat committed to those sacrifice throws knowing that he would go down too. The harai makikomi (2nd throw) should have been a finisher[/quote]
Ya, I’m honestly surprised that the harai makikomi didn’t end the fight.
Though, then again, throws aren’t generally meant to end the fight then and there anyhow. They’re supposed to get you into a positional advantage from where you can do whatever you want. Only a few throws are enough to literally end a fight.
[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
Exactly. I also wonder how much brown coat committed to those sacrifice throws knowing that he would go down too. The harai makikomi (2nd throw) should have been a finisher[/quote]
Ya, I’m honestly surprised that the harai makikomi didn’t end the fight.
Though, then again, throws aren’t generally meant to end the fight then and there anyhow. They’re supposed to get you into a positional advantage from where you can do whatever you want. Only a few throws are enough to literally end a fight.[/quote]
That may be, but I would have thought that if brown coat put any real stank on that particular throw, he should at least have gotten a momentary stun from the impact. Black coat didn’t even slow down, he was right back in the fight.
Disclaimer: I’m not a judo guy, but I do train a bit in tossing folks to the ground/avoiding being tossed there myself.
[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
Exactly. I also wonder how much brown coat committed to those sacrifice throws knowing that he would go down too. The harai makikomi (2nd throw) should have been a finisher[/quote]
Ya, I’m honestly surprised that the harai makikomi didn’t end the fight.
Though, then again, throws aren’t generally meant to end the fight then and there anyhow. They’re supposed to get you into a positional advantage from where you can do whatever you want. Only a few throws are enough to literally end a fight.[/quote]
True, but on a hard surface, against someone who isn’t versed in break falling, and if done with the intent to use your opponent as a crash pad to absorb all of his bodyweight and your bodyweight hitting the ground, they will generally at least momentarily knock the wind out of someone.
Brown coat looks as if he’s done too much sporting Judo where rolling Ippons are the norm and you aren’t really trying to slam your opponent through the ground.
Also, there are certain modifications that can be made to takedown which make them more damaging to the opponent. For instance Kosoto Gari and Kouchi Gari can act as knee bars/knee breaks if you position your hips and ankle at the right points and really drop/drive your weight through them. Tai Otoshi can also hyperextended the knee if you place the back of your knee in front of your opponent’s knee. Most throws/takedown where your opponent falls backwards are going to be the ones with the most chance of ending the fight though (like Osoto Gari or Morote Gari) or where you can spike the top of their head into the ground (like a pile driver off a tackle attempt).
Oh no, don’t misunderstand. By that statement I simply meant that you aren’t expected to outright KO a guy with a throw.
You do, however, expect to at least stun or disorient them long enough for you to take advantage of the situation.Otherwise you wasted your time doing effectively nothing.
The throw didn’t slow that guy down in the slightest, and that surprised me.
Well, we don’t really know what Black Coat’s experience is; he could have Combat Sports or heavy contact sports (like football or rugby) experience which had conditioned him be being able to be thrown and continue fighting through. We also don’t know if he had any substances in his body which may have dulled or masked the pain he felt when hitting the ground. Or he may have just had a serious adrenaline dump. Black Coat may have been seriously hurting the next day or even later that day, but for whatever reason was able to ignore the pain at that moment.
That’s why really the only guaranteed methods of stopping someone involve shutting down their brain; whether that by via slamming their skull into a structural weapon (like the ground), hitting their skull with an impact weapon ( like your fist or a bat), or shutting off the supply of oxygen to their brain (via a choke or strangulation or via Hypovolemic Shock due to blood loss). Other types of damage can certainly work and can even end things at times, but against extreme opponents may not. They can still help lead towards those fight Enders though, so they are still worth training.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Well, we don’t really know what Black Coat’s experience is; he could have Combat Sports or heavy contact sports (like football or rugby) experience which had conditioned him be being able to be thrown and continue fighting through. We also don’t know if he had any substances in his body which may have dulled or masked the pain he felt when hitting the ground. Or he may have just had a serious adrenaline dump. Black Coat may have been seriously hurting the next day or even later that day, but for whatever reason was able to ignore the pain at that moment.[/quote]
Ha ha. I wanted to say these, and even that Brown coat guy was too used to pulling his punches with his throws. I know a lot of dan-grade folks are great at this because they don’t want to actually hurt anyone during randori and such.
But then I felt that it would look like I’m making excuses.
