That may be, KM has grown so fast in recent years and lowered it’s standards as a result. I am also not a Krav practitioner btw but several of my colleagues are certified and were not all that impressed (though, to be fair their frame of comparison is much higher than the average person looking to learn some “self defense” skills). I know there were some regulars on here a little while back that we’re big into KM and had found good schools though.
Like I said, different RMA systems and schools will teach striking and grappling skills to different standards ranging from World Class to crappy. The one I train in called Lysak’s Sento Method (LSM) teaches striking and grappling at a World Class level (we actually have a World Champ BJJ coach, Olympic Bronze Medalist wrestling coach, 2 Forner World Champ Kickboxing coaches, about the best boxing lineage that you could imagine, and the list goes on), so that’s why I can say that some RMA’s do so. But, they should all cover all of those other components of real world self defense which Combat Sports like boxing and wrestling will not that are equally if not more important than how well you strike or grapple. Jails are full of tough people who can fight well, as are cemeteries.
But, it sounds like you may have already checked out the KM places in your area and found them lacking, so if you have ruled those out then go with the previous suggestion of boxing.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
That may be, KM has grown so fast in recent years and lowered it’s standards as a result. I am also not a Krav practitioner btw but several of my colleagues are certified and were not all that impressed (though, to be fair their frame of comparison is much higher than the average person looking to learn some “self defense” skills). I know there were some regulars on here a little while back that we’re big into KM and had found good schools though.
Like I said, different RMA systems and schools will teach striking and grappling skills to different standards ranging from World Class to crappy. The one I train in called Lysak’s Sento Method (LSM) teaches striking and grappling at a World Class level (we actually have a World Champ BJJ coach, Olympic Bronze Medalist wrestling coach, 2 Forner World Champ Kickboxing coaches, about the best boxing lineage that you could imagine, and the list goes on), so that’s why I can say that some RMA’s do so. But, they should all cover all of those other components of real world self defense which Combat Sports like boxing and wrestling will not that are equally if not more important than how well you strike or grapple. Jails are full of tough people who can fight well, as are cemeteries.
But, it sounds like you may have already checked out the KM places in your area and found them lacking, so if you have ruled those out then go with the previous suggestion of boxing.[/quote]
That place you’re talking about sounds like the dream combat training facility. There was only one Krav Maga school near me and there were no punching bags, gloves or mats. The entire training session was disarming knives, groin kicks and things of the sort. It’s just not my style. There are no more RMAs that are reasonably close to where I live, only Karate, Judo, BJJ, wrestling and Boxing. I had to choose between striking, grappling, or the components or self defense not taught in combat sports. My weakest point of those 3 is striking, so I went with it. I never threw a successful punch to the face in a real fight, always launched at my opponent. I gotta learn to strike.
Thank you very much for informing me, by the way. Your posts are everywhere and they are insightful.
[quote]magick wrote:
Why punch a guy when you can just throw him with an osoto-gari and give him an a concussion!
=D[/quote]
How many judoka are going to be able to pull this off when it counts after just a year training a couple nights/week? Not a knock against judo at all. It just seems to me like there’s a lot to learn in judo (i.e. ukemi and all the other foundational stuff) before you really get to the stuff that hurts the other guy.
Conversely, how many boxers are going to be able to throw a reasonable punch and probably a combination or two after a year?
At that level, I expect I’d sooner tangle with the judoka every single time, all else being equal.
It’s a shame you can’t do more than one but given your parameter of choosing just one i’d go with boxing. I’ve done boxing, MT, and reality-based systems. If there’s a decent reality-based system near you do that instead.
Why boxing?
It teaches great body mechanics. Movement, proximity sense, using weight transfer and body shift to maximise power, targeting. The weapon at the end of all that is irrelevant really. Once you’ve got the mechanics of developing power then add a jab/cross/elbow/anything to the end of it and it’ll be a useful strike.
Also it gives excellent fight-specific stamina/endurance.
[quote]magick wrote:
Why punch a guy when you can just throw him with an osoto-gari and give him an a concussion!
=D[/quote]
Throwing people into the ground is of course a great skill to have and can certainly end a fight, but throws like Osoto-Gari are going to require specific conditions to be appropriate. Real fights don’t occur like Judo Randori sessions so unless your opponent grabs hold of you and tries to throw you or restrain you in a real fight you may find that pulling off such skills are a lot trickier when you are having to deal with getting punched in the face, having fingers jammed in your eyes, have to close distance on someone who doesn’t want to grapple with you, weapons, multiples, and a host of other things that differentiate real fights from judo matches.
Not saying that Osoto-Gari isn’t a great skill; I have used it effectively under real resistance, but I am also training how to deal with all of those other things and the conditions just happened to be right for an entry into an Osoto. But this is far beyond the scope of what most (in fact all that I’ve ever seen or heard on) Judo schools are going to teach you and did not happen with only 1 year of training for me.
Most real fights (assuming they go physical) are going to be about (from a self defense standpoint you obviously would have the legal and moral considerations so you don’t " win the battle but lose the war"):
Maintaining the ability to see, breathe, and think so you can continue to fight
Landing the first good shot
Not stopping your assault until the threat is neutralized
Escaping as soon as it is safe, possible, and feasible to do so
If somewhere within your assault or your defense of your opponent’s initial assault there arises the conditions which Osoto becomes the most direct, efficient method by which to continue then so be it, but again this is not something that is going to be covered in a Judo class or be gained with 1 year of recreational training.
Sento- truth ,I hesitate to interject here goes caution into the wind. Osoto is a great fake, and would be a opening fake for me personally. Everybody knows it and generally you can feel out a opponent based on his reaction to it. But in real life osoto opens you up to a counter even by a inexperienced practitioner if they are larger and have a good base (even a wrestler).
If you are going to use judo in a self defense situation by all means use a asha waza but do not expose yourself to the possibility of being taken to the ground. In stead mearly interject different openings to ashi wazas until you get the desired reaction. The point is this level of skill in judo comes only begins after perhaps 800-1200 hours of instruction in a great dojo.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
How many judoka are going to be able to pull this off when it counts after just a year training a couple nights/week? Not a knock against judo at all. It just seems to me like there’s a lot to learn in judo (i.e. ukemi and all the other foundational stuff) before you really get to the stuff that hurts the other guy.
Conversely, how many boxers are going to be able to throw a reasonable punch and probably a combination or two after a year?
At that level, I expect I’d sooner tangle with the judoka every single time, all else being equal.[/quote]
This is for both Sentoguy and you-
I meant it more as a joke. I am fully aware just how difficult it is to actually develop a proper skill-level with judo. And even then, since judo is taught mostly as a sport, it’s difficult to utilize your skill in an actual self-defense situation.
But just about any throw against an opponent who doesn’t know judo on concrete ground will probably end the fight right then and there.
In any case, I fully support boxing as a martial art of choice for self defense if time constraint is an issue.
[quote]psdsportsdoc wrote:
The weapon at the end of all that is irrelevant really. Once you’ve got the mechanics of developing power then add a jab/cross/elbow/anything to the end of it and it’ll be a useful strike.
[/quote]
This, big time. I found that boxing has tremendous crossover when you’re focusing on self-defense moves like elbow strikes, ax hands, and cupped-hand blows, because you already know and understand how stepping transfers weight, and how that weight transfers into power.
Guys in a lot of other systems do it if they’ve been taught right, but they don’t always understand the concept itself or why it works - they just do it out of repetition, and when teaching them a new move you’ve got to start all over again. Boxing/MT guys pick up on it right away though.
[quote]Dude623 wrote:
Sento- truth ,I hesitate to interject here goes caution into the wind. Osoto is a great fake, and would be a opening fake for me personally. Everybody knows it and generally you can feel out a opponent based on his reaction to it. But in real life osoto opens you up to a counter even by a inexperienced practitioner if they are larger and have a good base (even a wrestler).
If you are going to use judo in a self defense situation by all means use a asha waza but do not expose yourself to the possibility of being taken to the ground. In stead mearly interject different openings to ashi wazas until you get the desired reaction. The point is this level of skill in judo comes only begins after perhaps 800-1200 hours of instruction in a great dojo. [/quote]
Again, it depends on the set-up and execution of the Osoto. There are ways to do it where bigger stronger guys, even wrestlers will not muscle out of it and it is in fact extremely difficult to counter (even using a Sutemi-Waza technique and trying to flow with it is difficult), but these are not often taught in modern sport oriented Judo schools.
I do agree though that if you don’t set it up perfectly or utilize more “street Judo” tactics that you are probably getting countered hard if you attempt it on a big strong athletic opponent, even worse if they have grappling experience. I wasn’t necessarily suggesting that Osoto is the way to go either, it may be or may not be depending on the situation, energy that you are encountering, positional relationship to your opponent, and a whole host of other variables. All I was trying to point out was that while Judo throws can be great techniques, they are going to require specific conditions to be appropriate and that self defense situations are seldom going to resemble Randori sessions, so the set-ups, positions, and applications are going to need to be adapted for real combat.
Also agree that it’s going to take a lot of practice hours and repetitions before you are able to “flow” with your techniques under pressure. Not something that a year’s worth of training is likely to produce.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
How many judoka are going to be able to pull this off when it counts after just a year training a couple nights/week? Not a knock against judo at all. It just seems to me like there’s a lot to learn in judo (i.e. ukemi and all the other foundational stuff) before you really get to the stuff that hurts the other guy.
Conversely, how many boxers are going to be able to throw a reasonable punch and probably a combination or two after a year?
At that level, I expect I’d sooner tangle with the judoka every single time, all else being equal.[/quote]
This is for both Sentoguy and you-
I meant it more as a joke. I am fully aware just how difficult it is to actually develop a proper skill-level with judo. And even then, since judo is taught mostly as a sport, it’s difficult to utilize your skill in an actual self-defense situation.
But just about any throw against an opponent who doesn’t know judo on concrete ground will probably end the fight right then and there.
In any case, I fully support boxing as a martial art of choice for self defense if time constraint is an issue.[/quote]
Ok, sometimes subtext is difficult to convey/read via only text. Maybe if you put a “;-)” instead of a “=D” I would have got that you were joking.
Still agree with your point about the effectiveness of slamming your opponent’s head into the ground though, nasty tactic, though I would also warn that there is a decent chance of severe brain trauma or even death when using this tactic so I would only use that if you were in a life or death situation. Then again you generally learn how to control your opponent’s fall from doing lots of reps of the takedowns; you had just better have actually practiced your ground fighting skills as well as your throwing skills then as the throw won’t be a fight ender most likely.
[quote]psdsportsdoc wrote:
The weapon at the end of all that is irrelevant really. Once you’ve got the mechanics of developing power then add a jab/cross/elbow/anything to the end of it and it’ll be a useful strike.
[/quote]
This, big time. I found that boxing has tremendous crossover when you’re focusing on self-defense moves like elbow strikes, ax hands, and cupped-hand blows, because you already know and understand how stepping transfers weight, and how that weight transfers into power.
Guys in a lot of other systems do it if they’ve been taught right, but they don’t always understand the concept itself or why it works - they just do it out of repetition, and when teaching them a new move you’ve got to start all over again. Boxing/MT guys pick up on it right away though.[/quote]
Absolutely. One of the things that I really like about Rich Ryan’s Dynamic Combat Method (and subsequently iCAT) is that GM Ryan (who prefers “Rich”, but I choose to refer to him at GM Ryan out of my respect for the time and effort he has put into developing his craft, but that’s just my choice) has broken down striking into it’s simplest, non “stylistic” components and has a straight forward method of teaching people how to maximize both speed and power in their strikes (any strike) based on physics and human biomechanics (so basically provable, reproducible results, no esoteric crap or blind faith).
To date while I’ve met a few people who could strike at GM Ryan’s level (though not many, he is a beast) I have never seen a more no nonsense straight forward method of teaching optimal striking mechanics or troubleshooting why a certain person’s strikes are not producing maximal effect.
Then once you have internalized the skill you can apply it to any strike (be it empty hand or weapons based).
Sento- I agree , I was only trying to add to what you where saying, by adding a more indepth analysis of the throws and conveying that it does indeed take a very long time to develop the Judoka along the combat applications of judo.
[quote]Dude623 wrote:
Sento- truth ,I hesitate to interject here goes caution into the wind. Osoto is a great fake, and would be a opening fake for me personally. Everybody knows it and generally you can feel out a opponent based on his reaction to it. But in real life osoto opens you up to a counter even by a inexperienced practitioner if they are larger and have a good base (even a wrestler).
If you are going to use judo in a self defense situation by all means use a asha waza but do not expose yourself to the possibility of being taken to the ground. In stead mearly interject different openings to ashi wazas until you get the desired reaction. The point is this level of skill in judo comes only begins after perhaps 800-1200 hours of instruction in a great dojo. [/quote]
In the street the fight is going to be dirty though. Simply entering for various ashiwaza might not be enough to get your opponent to step the way you want without them hurting you, the setup needs to be more aggressive. Kicking the kneecaps or stomping on the arches of his feet will definitely make him move the leg the way you want. Even then you might not be able to safely get a good enough “power” grip
FPD- Amen to that. Generally everything is up a few notches. When you hook up it is more a strike where your not only trying to hook up but break the clavical at the same time. Or all the reaping is done full power trying to break the tib/fib.
i’m thinking if a throw is actually going to be really clean you will need to get some kind of small joint, elbow or shoulder locked up so you can actually lead them around. scrambling for conventional grips in the street just gives me a bad feeling. Like what happens here, its just too messy
Locks can definitely help you break structure and balance and allow you to throw someone easier, you can also use body handles, nerve attacks and eye attacks to do this very well also. Traditional grips can be used if they are wearing a thick jacket for you to grab as well, but you’d better be fast and powerful at grabbing them and be going directly into your throw or set-up because any little pause in the action is opportunity for things to go wrong.
You can also use wrestling grips like overhooks, underhooks, collar ties, body locks, and head locks to throw them if they don’t have thick closing. But you still want to be careful that you don’t over-complicate things if you do this and could not have gone for a more direct end to the situation if you are in a serious life or death situation. If you were in a restraining scenario though (LEO’s, Bouncers, dealing with drunk buddy with beer balls, etc…) then I think that option could be a good one.
That was his thing maybe he only got as far as hip throws. The leg (ashi waza’s) where there all day long. If you try and its not there, then reverse with a vengeance don’t keep trying something that just isn’t there. And hands in the pockets at first makes me think he was at least very comfortable with this individual or stupid and not paying attention.
Also the intent during a real fight is not to throw them on there back for the full point , its to pile drive or slam them if your in fear of them. He didn’t do either so I am thinking he may have not deemed the guy a real threat maybe he (badguy) was drunk. To reinforce this feeling that he really didn’t want to hurt the guy is he threw him multiple times (to concrete) with little to no effect. + what Sento said. That was to easy.
also FYI I just came home after 2 hours with three officiers (21 intense one minute rounds 7 with each) and I am on my second tonic and scotch. So I will be signing off sooon. So again for the rest of the night I will agree with what ever Sento says.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
How many judoka are going to be able to pull this off when it counts after just a year training a couple nights/week? Not a knock against judo at all. It just seems to me like there’s a lot to learn in judo (i.e. ukemi and all the other foundational stuff) before you really get to the stuff that hurts the other guy.
Conversely, how many boxers are going to be able to throw a reasonable punch and probably a combination or two after a year?
At that level, I expect I’d sooner tangle with the judoka every single time, all else being equal.[/quote]
This is for both Sentoguy and you-
I meant it more as a joke. I am fully aware just how difficult it is to actually develop a proper skill-level with judo. And even then, since judo is taught mostly as a sport, it’s difficult to utilize your skill in an actual self-defense situation.
But just about any throw against an opponent who doesn’t know judo on concrete ground will probably end the fight right then and there.
In any case, I fully support boxing as a martial art of choice for self defense if time constraint is an issue.[/quote]
I kind of suspected you were at least half joking. I just wanted to clarify for the sake of anybody else who might be reading.
I agree that if you were to pull off a clean, hard throw/slam on concrete especially against an untrained opponent will likely be a fight stopper (and quite possibly lethal force, as Sento alludes to). Most people who are killed in unarmed confrontations for as a result of post-bit injuries (i.e. you hit him he hits the ground).
