Marine General Fires off against Bush

Elk,

You act like you have the cornerstone on virtue. I appreciate that you were a radar operator in 1991. However, and let me make this very clear, that does not mean that there are not other kinds of sacrifice. If you can remember a few days back, I’ve made some very personal sacrifices for war.

Funny you didn’t mention Colin Powell. Remember Rumsfeld flew Navy fighters in the fifties. It wasn’t his fault he flew in between Korea and Vietnam. Please find me one piece of literature stating that he made any effort to “avoid a war.”

By the way, all your criticism of who served and didn’t serve is totally irrelevant. You voted for Bill Clinton, twice. You are a hypocrite.

DO NOT COMPARE ME TO THE TALIBAN. That is over the top. I don’t mind being called names (it means my logic is unanswerable), but being called Taliban is a show stopper.

vroom,

I’ll spell it out for you, there are more than those shells we have found. Poor Saddam, just sort of forgot about the shells, the long range missles, the drones, etc… Your comment about “couldn’t Saddam have made a mistake” makes me shake my head in bewilderment.

Let me make it very clear what I am doing right now, I’m supporting our troops. On the off chance that a soldier is reading these threads, I want them to know that we reject the Roy Batty, Elkh views.

Jeff

Jeff, again, if you don’t know it, the items you present are not the reason the war was waged.

Nobody doubted the odd item would be around. If you feel the items found justifies the war, that is your view, but it isn’t how the war was sold.

I’m pretty sure the soldiers are going to be able to tell the difference between criticism of the administration and criticism of the troops themselves. At the same time, if troops are doing things that deserve criticism, then I guess maybe those things should be criticized. Strange isn’t it?

Veg, the sites you point to are not actually proving anything. There are similar types of sites pointing out supposed proof against conservative coverage as well. These sites are pointing to examples of things that bother the other.

I think the definition of “bias” is too attached to personal viewpoints for there ever to be a definitive proof. What the study might prove is that many conservatives are not interested in being journalists. Heh, maybe because it requires being able to read, write and formulate their own thoughts. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Anyway, more seriously, those things aren’t proof I’m afraid.

JeffR
I now see why you never served! If you can’t handle being compared to the taliban you never would have made it through boot camp! The reason why I keep bringing up service and I will do it whenever some right-wing nut try’s to act self-righteous like they have the cornerstone on patriotism is because the great majority of them are hypocrites who cry for war but watch from the sidelines. I have served and if I needed to again to defend my country for legitimate reasons or if I was passionate about the cause like you seem to be, I would re-enlist in a heartbeat! and your tunnel vision thinking does remind me of the taliban!

And one last thing JeffR, I was not a radar operator! My classification was Intelligence Specialist Second Class. I plotted targets throughout Kuwait and Iraq that were bombed to oblivion in the first Gulf war!
Just to point that out to you Jeff!

Sure they are, if 65% of the news I can get is liberal and 33% is conservative and the rest is “Moderate” or whatever, just by pure numbers there is a liberal media bias. If it were 55% to 45% I don’t think too many people would notice or care.

I am not saying which side is right or wrong, just pointing out that if there are many more liberal viewpoints being aired, then that is the classical definition of a media bias. You can’t argue with math i’m afraid. Show me a poll that shows there are more conservatives in journalism and I will agree that there is no media bias.

Here is another good example that the media is brainwashing people to the left.

False: In three of the Bush ads, John Kerry is being accused of planning to raise taxes by at least $900 billion in his first 100 days in office. There is no such plan. According to the Annenberg poll, however, 34% of the interviewees took it as a fact.

False: A Kerry ad claims that “George Bush says sending jobs overseas makes sense for America”. The President never said anything like that. A Bush economic adviser stated in a report to Congress once that there were certain long-term benefits to a cheaper production of goods overseas–nothing more. 61% believed this claim.

Misleading: Three Republican ads say that “Mr. Kerry wants to raise gasoline taxes by 50 cents a gallon”. Kerry made a few comments to that regard ten years ago that were published by two newspapers; “a position,” says the NY Times, “he never acted on and has long since abandoned.” 46% of the Annenberg subjects thought this statement to be true.

Misleading: In a Kerry commercial, it is said that 3 million jobs have been lost under the Bush administration. However, the Bureau of Labor Statistics data showed that the net job loss was closer to 2.3 million (and is now less than 1.6 million); Kerry’s figures didn’t include government jobs. 72% of the surveyed said they believed 3 million jobs were lost.

Misleading: A Bush commercial states that “Kerry supported higher taxes over 350 times.” The correct sentence would be: “Kerry supported higher taxes than the Republicans proposed over 350 times.” Fact is that in several cases, Kerry voted for maintaining current rates or even cutting taxes–just not by as much as the GOP wanted. 56 % of the interviewed believed the statement from the TV commercial was true.

Ok so both sides misled the public, now who did the public believe more? Well only once did more than half of the people believe that what the GOP said was true. However all the liberal statements were believed by up to 3/4ths of the pollsters. Why do they believe in the lies of one over the lies of another? because liberals do better political research? No, because the media bashes it down their throughts day in and day out. If you can’t see the connection I will actually spontaneously combust out of sheer disbelief. :wink:

seriously though give it some thought. Elk, I want your input on this as well.

Vegita
I cannot point out statistics to you. I can only refer to my news outlets that I watch on a nightly basis.
I watch FOX news, I watch MSNBC, I watch CNN, and Comedy Central the Daily show, with Jonathen Stewart. Lets start with Fox who in my opinion is the most brazenly one sided conservative show on the air. I mean really if someone cannot see how everything stated on that network is pro-bush then you are blind as a bat. Alan combs is the lone voice of the left and is usually meek as mouse! Brite Hume’s show consists of all conservatives who like to bash anyone who disagrees with the current administration.

On MSNBC I like to watch the top five count down with Keith Oberman. I could be wrong, but I do think there is slight skew to the left with Keith, but I think they do pretty much give the news in a straight forward way. I love Chris Mathews who I believe is a Republican, but who I think wants the truth regardless of party lines.

On CNN there is another conservative I like to watch Lou Dobbs another one who I believe holds the truth to be the goal. Not party lines!

So Veg, that is where I get the lions share of my news. No I don’t spend countless hours researching surveys or statistics on the internet that are colored by the people presenting them right or left. I know Time and Newsweek are considered pawns of the left, but I have read both of these rags since highschool.

Oh, I forgot the Daily Show. It gives the truth whilst making me laugh my arse off!

Veg, a quick quip…

There is great potential for the issue you are discussing, but the fact that many journalists self-identify as liberal does not mean they are busy writing biased stories.

Journalists, real journalists, are supposed to dig out facts and present them for consideration. However, yes, a lot of “journalism” today is really sensationalism or party parroting. So, liberal or otherwise, it is possible for professionals to present a piece which does not reflect their own viewpoint.

So, in my mind you have proven that there is certainly a potential for bias based on the number of journalists that self-identify as liberal. However, you haven’t proven that this results in a bias in stories presented.

The editorial control over the journalists or the owner of the media the journalists publish in will have a huge impact. The use of sensationalist journalism instead of professional journalism will also make a big difference.

I’m not disagreeing with you. I just think deeper digging has to be done to “prove” a bias.

What Vroom said… for example now that he has retired, Walter Cronkite, it turns out, has liberal leanings. I defy anyone to prove that they could find a liberal bias in his presentation of the news. The fact that Cronkite votes Democratic is NOT proof that he had “liberal bias”.

Hey Jeff
You never answered my question buddy. If that dud shell we found was some sort of proof of WMD, then why didn’t Bush mention it in his speech before the War College last week? It would have been an issue, but it wasn’t… why not? Bush didn’t mention WMDs one time during the speech. Maybe you are putting way too much importance into finding this shell, beyond what anyone else is willing to do, even the military.

Regarding negative ads and false claims: Here is a report saying that this is the most negative campaign in history, with Kerry airing 25% negative ads and Bush running 75% negative ads. Bush also gets knocked for using misleading statements, skewed statistics, and distorting Kerry’s record. Bush’s ads are much more misleading than Kerry’s ads.

If you read this article carefully, you will see a slight conservative spin (in my opinion). For example, saying that the reason that Bush ads have distorted the truth more often than Kerry’s ads, is because Kerry has “a longer voting record” How does that explain Bush twisting the truth???

From Bush, Unprecedented Negativity
Scholars Say Campaign Is Making History With Often-Misleading Attacks

By Dana Milbank and Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, May 31, 2004

It was a typical week in the life of the Bush reelection machine.

Last Monday in Little Rock, Vice President Cheney said Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry “has questioned whether the war on terror is really a war at all” and said the senator from Massachusetts “promised to repeal most of the Bush tax cuts within his first 100 days in office.”

On Tuesday, President Bush’s campaign began airing an ad saying Kerry would scrap wiretaps that are needed to hunt terrorists.

The same day, the Bush campaign charged in a memo sent to reporters and through surrogates that Kerry wants to raise the gasoline tax by 50 cents.

On Wednesday and Thursday, as Kerry campaigned in Seattle, he was greeted by another Bush ad alleging that Kerry now opposes education changes that he supported in 2001.

The charges were all tough, serious – and wrong, or at least highly misleading. Kerry did not question the war on terrorism, has proposed repealing tax cuts only for those earning more than $200,000, supports wiretaps, has not endorsed a 50-cent gasoline tax increase in 10 years, and continues to support the education changes, albeit with modifications.

Scholars and political strategists say the ferocious Bush assault on Kerry this spring has been extraordinary, both for the volume of attacks and for the liberties the president and his campaign have taken with the facts. Though stretching the truth is hardly new in a political campaign, they say the volume of negative charges is unprecedented – both in speeches and in advertising.

Three-quarters of the ads aired by Bush’s campaign have been attacks on Kerry. Bush so far has aired 49,050 negative ads in the top 100 markets, or 75 percent of his advertising. Kerry has run 13,336 negative ads – or 27 percent of his total. The figures were compiled by The Washington Post using data from the Campaign Media Analysis Group of the top 100 U.S. markets. Both campaigns said the figures are accurate.

The assault on Kerry is multi-tiered: It involves television ads, news releases, Web sites and e-mail, and statements by Bush spokesmen and surrogates – all coordinated to drive home the message that Kerry has equivocated and “flip-flopped” on Iraq, support for the military, taxes, education and other matters.

“There is more attack now on the Bush side against Kerry than you’ve historically had in the general-election period against either candidate,” said University of Pennsylvania professor Kathleen Hall Jamieson, an authority on political communication. “This is a very high level of attack, particularly for an incumbent.”

Brown University professor Darrell West, author of a book on political advertising, said Bush’s level of negative advertising is already higher than the levels reached in the 2000, 1996 and 1992 campaigns. And because campaigns typically become more negative as the election nears, “I’m anticipating it’s going to be the most negative campaign ever,” eclipsing 1988, West said. “If you compare the early stage of campaigns, virtually none of the early ads were negative, even in '88.”

In terms of the magnitude of the distortions, those who study political discourse say Bush’s are no worse than those that have been done since, as Stanford University professor Shanto Iyengar put it, “the beginning of time.”

Kerry, too, has made his own misleading statements and exaggerations. For example, he said in a speech last week about Iraq: “They have gone it alone when they should have assembled a whole team.” That is not true. There are about 25,000 allied troops from several nations, particularly Britain, in Iraq. Likewise, Kerry said several times last week that Bush has spent $80 million on negative and misleading ads – a significant overstatement. Kerry also suggested several times last week that Bush opposed increasing spending on several homeland defense programs; in fact, Bush has proposed big increases in homeland security but opposed some Democratic attempts to increase spending even more in some areas. Kerry’s rhetoric at rallies is also often much harsher and more personal than Bush’s.

But Bush has outdone Kerry in the number of untruths, in part because Bush has leveled so many specific charges (and Kerry has such a lengthy voting record), but also because Kerry has learned from the troubles caused by Al Gore’s misstatements in 2000. “The balance of misleading claims tips to Bush,” Jamieson said, “in part because the Kerry team has been more careful.”

Attacks Get Early Start

The attacks have started unusually early – even considering the accelerated primary calendar – in part because Bush was responding to a slew of attacks on his record during the Democratic primaries, in which the rivals criticized him more than one another. And because the Bush campaign has spent an unprecedented sum on advertising at this early stage of the campaign, “the average voter is getting a much more negative impression,” said Ken Goldstein, who tracks political advertising at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

From the president and Cheney down to media aides stationed in every battleground state and volunteers who dress up like Flipper the flip-flopping dolphin at rallies, the Bush campaign relentlessly portrays Kerry as elitist, untrustworthy, liberal and a flip-flopper on major issues. This campaign is persistent and methodical, and it often revs up on Monday mornings with the strategically timed release of ads or damaging attacks on Kerry, including questioning medical and service records in Vietnam and his involvement in the peace movement afterward. Often, they knock Kerry off message and force him to deflect personal questions.

Sometimes the charges ring true. Last week, Kerry told NBC: “I’m for the Patriot Act, but I’m not for the Patriot Act the way they abuse the Constitution.” That brought to mind Kerry’s much-mocked contention in March on Iraq spending: “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”

But often they distort Kerry’s record and words to undermine the candidate or reinforce negative perceptions of him.

One constant theme of the Bush campaign is that Kerry is “playing politics” with Iraq, terrorism and national security. Earlier this month, Bush-Cheney Chairman Marc Racicot told reporters in a conference call that Kerry suggested in a speech that 150,000 U.S. troops are “universally responsible” for the misdeeds of a few soldiers at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison – a statement the candidate never made. In that one call, Racicot made at least three variations of this claim and the campaign cut off a reporter who challenged him on it.

In early March, Bush charged that Kerry had proposed a $1.5 billion cut in the intelligence budget that would “gut the intelligence services.” Kerry did propose such a cut in 1995, but it amounted to about 1 percent of the overall intelligence budget and was smaller than the $3.8 billion cut the Republican-led Congress approved for the same program Kerry was targeting.

The campaign ads, which are most scrutinized, have produced a torrent of misstatements. On March 11, the Bush team released a spot saying that in his first 100 days in office Kerry would “raise taxes by at least $900 billion.” Kerry has said no such thing; the number was developed by the Bush campaign’s calculations of Kerry’s proposals.

On March 30, the Bush team released an ad noting that Kerry “supported a 50-cent-a-gallon gas tax” and saying, “If Kerry’s tax increase were law, the average family would pay $657 more a year.” But Kerry opposes an increase in the gasoline tax. The ad is based on a 10-year-old newspaper quotation of Kerry but implies that the proposal is current.

Other Bush claims, though misleading, are rooted in facts. For example, Cheney’s claim in almost every speech that Kerry “has voted some 350 times for higher taxes” includes any vote in which Kerry voted to leave taxes unchanged or supported a smaller tax cut than some favored.

Stretching the Truth

Incumbent presidents often prefer to run on their records in office, juxtaposing upbeat messages with negative shots at their opponents, as Bill Clinton did in 1996.

Scott Reed, who ran Robert J. Dole’s presidential campaign that year, said the Bush campaign has little choice but to deliver a constant stream of such negative charges. With low poll numbers and a volatile situation in Iraq, Bush has more hope of tarnishing Kerry’s image than promoting his own.

“The Bush campaign is faced with the hard, true fact that they have to keep their boot on his neck and define him on their terms,” Reed said. That might risk alienating some moderate voters or depressing turnout, “but they don’t have a choice,” he said.

The strategy was in full operation last week, beginning Monday in Arkansas. “Senator Kerry,” Cheney said, “has questioned whether the war on terror is really a war at all. He said, quote, ‘I don’t want to use that terminology.’ In his view, opposing terrorism is far less of a military operation and more of a law enforcement operation.”

But Kerry did not say what Cheney attributes to him. The quote Cheney used came from a March interview with the New York Times, in which Kerry used the phrase “war on terror.” When he said “I don’t want to use that terminology,” he was discussing the “economic transformation” of the Middle East – not the war on terrorism.

On Tuesday, the Bush campaign held a conference call to discuss its new ad, which charged that Kerry was “pressured by fellow liberals” to oppose wiretaps, subpoena powers and surveillance in the USA Patriot Act. “Kerry would now repeal the Patriot Act’s use of these tools against terrorists,” the ad said.

Kerry has proposed modifying those provisions by mandating tougher judicial controls over wiretaps and subpoenas, but not repealing them. In the conference call, Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman was prodded to offer evidence that Kerry was pressured by liberals or that Kerry opposed wiretaps. He offered no direct evidence, saying only that Kerry objected to the Patriot Act after liberals did, and that “a common-sense reading indicates he intends to repeal those important tools.”

Meanwhile, Kerry was greeted in Oregon and Washington state with television ads paid for by the Bush campaign that underscore what ad analysts call the negativity and misleading nature of many of the Bush TV spots. One titled “Doublespeak” pulls quotes from several major newspapers to argue that Kerry has waffled on major issues and has often said one thing and done another. The quotes, however, are often from editorials, sometimes from opinion pages hostile toward Kerry, such as that of the Wall Street Journal.

On Tuesday and Wednesday, as Kerry talked about rising gasoline prices, the Bush campaign recycled its charge that Kerry supports raising the gasoline tax by 50 cents per gallon. This was done in a memo to reporters and through Bush surrogates such as Rep. Jennifer Dunn (R-Wash.). The Bush-Cheney Web site also features a “Kerry Gas Tax Calculator,” allowing users to learn “How much more would he cost you?”

In Thursday’s Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Tracey Schmitt, regional spokeswoman for Bush-Cheney '04, echoed the point: “John Kerry helped block the bill in the Senate and is now inserting himself into the debate in a blatant display of political opportunism. Senator Kerry supported higher gas taxes at least 11 times, including a 50-cent-per-gallon gasoline tax,” Schmitt said.

On Thursday, after Kerry delivered a major foreign policy address, the Bush campaign dispatched Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) to make this statement to the Green Bay Press-Gazette in his home state: “John Kerry has a history of making proposals and casting votes that would decrease America’s safety.” Kerry was campaigning in Green Bay on Thursday and Friday.

It is true Kerry has voted numerous times to eliminate weapons systems and opposed the 1991 Iraq war. But Cheney voted against many of those same weapons systems, and Kerry has voted for several defense increases, especially in recent years.

At Bush campaign headquarters on Thursday, Mehlman held a conference call with Sens. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) and George Allen (R-Va.) to level similar charges. “For John Kerry, the war in Iraq and the overall war on terror are a political game of Twister,” Mehlman said.

Mehlman also drew reporters’ attention to a new feature on the Bush Web site, allowing visitors to “Track Kerry’s Shifting Positions on Iraq.” That feature joined a Web log that points out negative coverage of Kerry, a feature called “John Kerry: The Raw Deal,” “The Kerry Line,” “Kerry Flip Flop of the Day,” and “Journeys with John,” a Kerry itinerary allowing people to see why “John Kerry is wrong for your state.”

On Wednesday, a Bush memo charged that Kerry “led the fight against creating the Department of Homeland Security.” While Kerry did vote against the Bush version multiple times, it is not true that he led the fight, but rather was one of several Democrats who held out for different labor agreements as part of its creation. Left unsaid is that, in the final vote, Kerry supported the department – which Bush initially opposed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3222-2004May30_3.html

JeffR,
I think that the reaction you are getting from others that claim that you remind them of the Taliban government is your attempts at silencing dissenters rallying the mob to intimidate and quiet us reflects the core value of facsism. You come accross like a Coulter or Limbaugh parrot. This kind of thing has surfaced throughout our history, and in the rise of fascism as a global event leading to WWII, made many Americans acutely aware of the consequences. I believe that was why it took only a pinprick by Edward R. Murrow to deflate McCarthy.

The difference between past situations and today is that the intimidators have gained the levers of power. When such a minority gains power, there should a terrible chill of fear for those who know how to detect fascism. What makes the situation even more distressing is the rise of the religious right. There never has been a true militant left in this country, and the far right has never been activated as it has been by Bush.

It has been implied by you and actually outright stated by others (the "good guys) in this forum, the desire that we (dissenters of the Bush Regime) could be punished as if we had committed treason for speaking out negatively against Bush. I wonder if you actually realize that with that you are basically saying that you don’t want democracy. Ironic considering you claim to love America and democracy, so much that you want to export it to the rest of the world. Do you always talk out of both sides of your mouth? You want something under conditions which would prevent it.

Lumpy, nice post. The article itself is reasonably presented… the numbers and explanations (as long as they are true) appear to speak for themselves.

To insert some judgement, I find that the right, often self-declared as morally right, would use behavior which is so obviously wrong (though perhaps not illegal) to campaign. It is hypocritical to claim faith, righteousness and moral leadership while twisting the trust and campaigning on negatives. Those claiming the high ground should actually stick to the high ground.

Sigh, it is also very divisionist. It creates wide differences in the right and left across America. Bush, the great uniter, is really a win at all costs person who will create any division necessary to advance his own agenda. Perhaps he has great belief in his agenda and believes that the ends justify the means, I don’t know.

I can’t fathom how people will put the current (whatever, not Bush but whoever is in power) administration up on some kind of pedestal. These are people. They have the same faults and failings we all have. They are not heros. They succumb to temptation, greed, hypocrisy, lechery and everything else you can think of too. They, all of them, whether left or right, have to be hounded by critics and media all the time to keep them from raping the public trust.

It’s your job to watch these bastards with a critical eye so they don’t rip off your money via taxes, destroy your environment, steal your freedoms or inflict policies that cause half the world to hate you even though personally you are a model human being.

Vroom-
Amen!
If I was in a combat zone, I can’t think of men I would feel more confident with then Roy Batty, Vroom, Lumpy, tme, Right Side Up, they are all intelligent men with the courage and conviction to stand up for what they believe is right even in the face of a mob rules mentality!

Elk, Lumpy, vroom,

I’m not a facist, either. I must be hitting pretty close to the mark to get you so upset. Anyway, I’ll prove I’m not a facist. I want you to continue talking.
Please donate funds to John Kerry. Please attend the Democratic convention. Go door to door supporting him. Please keep up with his ever changing stance on a given issue. Gather forty or fifty of your friends. Pick a particular issue. Don’t compare notes prior to speaking. Just stand up in front of a sympathetic crowd and say whatever comes to mind. Chances are John Kerry has espoused every angle of that particular subject at some point in the past. Don’t worry about contradicting each other (your candidate doesn’t worry about it. Why should you?).

vroom,

Come on down the the U.S. and join in the effort. You can be one of the
“foreign leaders” that prefers John Kerry over George Bush. Come on!!! It will be fun. You can say whatever you want and you can rightly say that John Kerry has agreed with you at some point.

As for me. I’m one of the millions of idiots who support George W. Bush and our efforts in Iraq. I’ve never been polled, but someone quoted a poll as indicating that some people have switched from supporting the war to opposing it. Again, I’m one of those simple, see it through types. I’m one of those fools who believed George Bush over Saddam Hussein when he claimed to have destroyed all of his WMD. Silly me!!! It all boils down to: “If John Kerry voted against authorizing military force in Iraq, it must be right.” Wait, he voted for the authorization. Well, at least he voted for reconstruction, right? Yes and no. Voted for then against it. Sorry, I’m too simple to understand that sort of deep thinking. I’ll guess I’ll just stick with the simple minded George W. Bush.

Jeff

P.S. George Senior cuts me a check every single month to write these articles.

Jeff, now you are parroting the negative commercials which, if you had read that large scary post up above, appear to be largely falsehoods.

Parrot on Pinocchio.

We don’t call you names because you are right, it’s because you have a closed mind, refuse to open your eyes and look for yourself, don’t read posts containing interesting information and keep on blathering mindlessly anyhow.

By the way, you missed me defending myself in another thread. I’ve lived and worked and traveled in the US quite extensively. I loved it there. I almost married myself an American woman. I probably shouldn’t have let that one get away.

Regardless, a dotted line on a map shouldn’t mean that I can’t know something interesting to you… but then, with a closed mind, I guess it could. Why don’t you read what people say and judge the posts on their merits?

Elkster, thanks, I’m honored.

JeffR,
If you are so gung-ho in support of military leaders with well-deserved reputations then go back and read the original post… General Zinni is not a small player. He is one of the most respected generals in the world, and he is a registered republican. He was also one of the most knowledgeable people on the Middle East. You would think that GWB would have consulted with him for advice. He did advise against it, but this war was decided upon long before 911, so it fell on deaf ears. This is a man who you would be very impressed by, and whose physical presence would probably intimidate the hell out of you. Intelligent, conservative, courageous… Why do you think that he (along with many other conservative generals) are speaking out against this war? Do you think that they give a flying fuck that YOU think that to do so is unpatriotic? Use your head, Jeff!

It is clear to me why Bush was a failure at every business his daddy bought him. Sometimes you shouldn’t stay the course. In business that kind of strategy will make you bankrupt in no time flat. You have to be a “reed in the wind”… flexible, adaptable, and creative. Something we have seen very little of out of this White House.

They had some chemical weapons… We knew that because we gave it to them in the early 80’s to help with their war against Iran. BTW, Rumsfelt still did business with them after he used it on his own people, so I don’t think that they have a leg to stand on with their “humanitarian” argument. Point is, we knew that they didn’t have enough to be a real threat that we couldn’t contain. Combine that with the fact that he had NO connection to 911 by all senior Bush people’s own admission and you have a pointless war.

How damn dead does the horse have to be before you guys quit beating it?

I love to see the 4-horsemen (Roy, Elk, vroom, and lumpy) banding together to prove how facist Jeff is, hell - just how totalitarian the whole right wing of this country is. Wait…the last time I checked, I think the Reps. held a majority in both the House and the Senate. How is it that we are so facist again?

In either a facist or totalitarian state you don’t have the right to object (I think I learned that in Poly-Sci 101).

I’m not trying to disrespect General Zinni in any way - but his credibility is less than solid. He’s trying to sell a book - he has an agenda that you cannot deny.

Hang in there Jeff - they’re circling the wagons - the last, dying maneuver of an “opressed” people. How do you say opressed in French?

this thread should die,
like I said before…us military types are doing the job over there…and we are going to finish…
no matter what the “raisin sacks” say on here!

Elk? WTF? you wouldn’t take me into a cobat zone to watch your back? I’m hurt man. :wink:

Vegita
That would be a hard call! You might start off on a mary jane induced rant about the origins of the universe when we needed you to focus on the task at hand! J/K

PtrDr
If you don’t like the thread don’t read it! Its that easy.

Rainjack
Circling the wagons huh? Don’t be to surprised or god forbid traumatized in Nov. if your super hero doesn’t win! I’m telling you dude support even among his base is dissipating. It is getting to hard to hide his ineptness! Also didn’t you read what the Marine officer posted on this thread about General Zinni. A man of honor, a legend in the Corp, but you keep stating he has some ax to grind or its because of his book to make money. Do you not think it is possible he is a military expert who saw the complete idiocy of this Iraq agenda and felt the need to speak out? Alas, I forgot you Rainjack are the expert. How could I have ever doubted the military expertise of Rainjack the military mastermind!

Elk -

Like I said in my previous post, I am not trying to take anything away from the good General’s service record. If he was really being honest, altruistic, and just wanting to make the world a happier place, then why did he whore himself out like that?

I’m not against him making a buck or two in retirement. I’m not saying he was a shitty leader. And never once have I waxed philosphical on my theories of the stratagies of war. But my nose works very well, and I know a rat when I smell one.

Zinni writes book, Zinni wants to promote book, Zinni goes on the record as being against the war, Zinni loses credibility.

Elk - all I can say is - let’s just wait until November, buddy. That is unless your candidate can’t stand losing and decides to throw out the military vote and sue G-dub - again.

rainjack is right…lets see what happens in November. If Kerry does indeed loose…we are holding the raisins of Elk…Lumpy…vroom and a few others to the fire with long skewers!