Oh yeah, one more thing I should mention. This year on the anniversary of the London bombings the Government is planning a big Islamic exhibition. Ok it may help ease tension and promote understanding but the timing is just plain sick if youre a relative or know someone who was killed.
[quote]Moerk wrote:
chinadoll:
Sekularized muslims make some good positive points, but the problem is, that they don’t dare challenge fanatic muslims as they will face the same anger and threats. They will be considered just as “infidel” as any Westerner.
[/quote]
That I would call human oppression.
[quote]vroom wrote:
It also seems like you guys overestimate the capabilities of the average muslim.
What are normal people supposed to do that the U.S. military can’t? The only people that could help don’t want to.
Veruvius,
You do have a point, however, let me ask you this.
If they will not police their own actions, should the rest of the world stand by and allow these terrorist actions?
What you are talking about is fear. When people knuckle under to fear, then the lawless are in power.
It takes brave people to risk their lives for what is right, for freedom, or whatever. All the quiet sheep muslims that are allowing the terrorists to speak for them need to find their own voices.
If they do not, they will also share responsibility in where we are heading. Make no mistake about it, the western world understood being angry about our presence in the Middle East and the meddling in their affairs.
However, what we have just witnessed is a true clash of cultures. Nobody in the west will bow down to censorship and repression by threats. We value our freedom, it was won at great expense, and there is no surer way to unite us than to attempt coercion by threat of terrorism.
The road is being paved. Perhaps the only people that can stop it from being travelled is those that are fair minded muslims, if they have the courage to speak.
I can only hope I’m wrong.[/quote]
Honestly, I agree with you. The only real solution to the turmoil in the Middle East lies with the people. I just don’t have any real faith that change will happen anytime soon.
Hi guys, nice to see the discussion grows, someone even opened a similar thread.
Meanwhile, governments and global instituitions have a hard time finding the right answer to the muslim outrage.
The Vatican officially condemns the cartoons:
freedom of speech doesn’t imply the right to criticise religious beliefs or feelings. These jokes were “intolarable provocations”. Although the violent outbreaks were also denounced, too.
(What’s wrong with you Ratze? Schulterschluss mit den Mullas? )
Islamabad has invited lots of european diplomats to discuss how inappropriate and despicable these cartoons were.
“We reject the plea for freedom of speech in this matter, for it does not imply an absence od moral standars, beliefs or laws”
There was an interview with a certain cartoonist of Al-Djasira, Shujaat Ali.
Here are some highlights:
He believes there should be an ethic code for cartoonists which includes voluntary censorship.
(Regarding a question the many antisemitic cartoons in arabic newspapers:)
“I think, should respect others people’s religious beliefs. It’s OK to make fun of politicians and governments, but not religions”
“Freedom is important, that is why I fight for it. But the problem is, we have to draw a line.”
So the muslim world stands firm. Do we?
What do you think?
I can’t really take it seriously when they say they can murder innocent civilians but it is intolerable that people publish cartoons they don’t like
I will be disappointed if elected officials around the world support terrorist claims beyond agreeing that the cartoons may have been offensive.
When terrorism is gone, then I’ll consider being willing to censor myself out of respect for others concerns. First though, I’ll have to see something worthy of respect.
Until then, perhaps I’ll have to take up cartooning.
[quote]Kailash wrote:
orion wrote:
Freedom (of speech) is my religion and I am a radical fundamentalist.
There is something called “slander” and “libel”. And if you were ever a victim, particularly of a crime thus incited, you would understand why laws against these exist.[/quote]
I don’t believe you can technically slander or libel a group. The nature of slander and libel require an individual injury, and generally an individually directed statement.
[quote]comedypedro wrote:
OK just to let you all know whats been happening in the UK here. There is another side to the freedom of speech issue, that of the arrest of two members of the British National Party who spoke out against Islam in a PRIVATE meeting that was secretly recorded. The BNP are totally right-wing and speak out against immigration to the UK from Islamic (and other) countries.
They faced 7 seven years imprisonment for speaking their minds. Compare that to the some 700 muslims who openly marched through the capital London calling for Jihad and all the rest of it and for the destruction of Britain in a repeat of 7/7 (and by the way no British paper even printed the cartoons) in an ILLEGAL protest and not 1 single arrest is made.
Now I dont agree with either sides views but whats good for one is good for all. It is quite simply Political Correctness gone mad, we are being held for ransom in our own country.
Im trying hard not to be biased here but the following points stand out:
A picture of Muhammed is shown with the implication that he/Muslims are suicide bombers. They say ‘thats not true, we’re going to blow you up for saying so’
Their religion has been offended, they respond by burning the Danish flag which has on it a cross, the universal symbol of Christianity.
Compared to the great advances in medicine, technology etc by the west, Islamic countries have contributed nothing to the world.
These extremist types do not represent the Muslim population who I hope will be more active in condemning them.
We (Europe) need to stop being so damned PC and show that we’re not to be fucked with!
Final (and best!) point : If it does go to all out war east vs west, who would win?
Yes.
Yes we would.
[/quote]
This is the problem with pretty much all “hate speech” – my position is a fairly broad generalization, but I think it’s true in all material respects: If you care about free speech, particulary political speech, you must be against hate-crime laws.
Guys, the situation is getting pretty tense.
The arab-european league has, as a reaction to the cartoons, decided, to make up some jokes on their own.
In their own words:
“…
Just like the newspapers in Europe claim that they only want to defend the freedom of speech and do not desire to stigmatise Muslims,we also do stress that our cartoons are not meant as an offence to anybody and ought not to be taken as a statement against any group, community or historical fact.
If it is the time to break Taboos and cross all the red lines, we certainly do not want to stay behind.”
(source: http://www.arabeuropean.org/ )
Here’s another one:
Has anyone seen the cartoon that caused the reaction? If so, could you post it?
Well, I’ve heard a lot about the cartoons, some sources claimed they were obscene (depicting Mohammed as a pedophile) while the ones I saw (the most drastic being the one with the bearded guy having a bomb as a turban) were really tame.
Hell, they weren’t even explicitly saying that this was actually Muhammed!
You may have heard that the cartoons were already half a year old. Some zealots then took an assortment(a dozen or so) and showed them around the islamic world, thus initiating the whole scandal.
I assume there was perhaps one or two jokes where the superprophet was displayed but because cartoons tend to use a lot of stereotypes, they thought all of the jokes were about Mr M.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Has anyone seen the cartoon that caused the reaction? If so, could you post it?[/quote]
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48674
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Hell, they weren’t even explicitly saying that this was actually Muhammed![/quote]
The knotted symbol on the turban “Muhammad” might have been a dead-giveaway…
Historical context for the woefully ignorant:
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/cartoons/
http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/collect/
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Has anyone seen the cartoon that caused the reaction? If so, could you post it?[/quote]
TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Arab vandals desecrate Joseph’s Tomb
Gravestone of biblical patriarch ruined despite Palestinian pledge
Posted: February 25, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern
? 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
The sacred Jewish site regarded as the grave of the biblical patriarch Joseph has been turned into a pile of rubble by Arab vandals, according to Israeli officials.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon confirmed Sunday that the large stone marking the grave was destroyed some time during the past two weeks, the Israeli News Network said.
Destroyed gravestone at traditional burial site for biblical patriarch Joseph.
Minister Natan Sharansky wants the foreign ministry to publicize photos of the desecrated site, which is in the Palestinian Authority-controlled town of Nablus, the biblical Shechem.
“If we would have razed the gravesite of one of the founders of Islam, billions of Muslims would have taken to the streets,” Sharansky said. “It’s inconceivable that the world should not know about this travesty.”
The Oslo Accords put the site under Israeli jurisdiction, but on Oct. 7, 2000, then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak ordered a unilateral retreat, based on a Palestinian agreement to protect the site.
But within hours, smoke was seen billowing from the tomb as a crowd burned Jewish prayer books and other articles. With pickaxes and hammers they began to tear apart the stone building. Two days later the dome of the tomb had been painted green and bulldozers were clearing the area.
Israeli authority was restored to the site during last April’s Operation Defensive Shield, but Israeli worshippers are not allowed to visit and it is not regularly guarded.
Building at Joseph’s Tomb site after Palestinian Authority took control.
Members of the Hassidic Breslover sect have been arrested in attempts to reach the tomb.
The Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva, a Jewish center for learning that was closed down at the time of the initial Israeli retreat, issued a press release last week demanding the “immediate safeguarding” of the tomb. The center also asked that it be allowed to reopen its doors on the site.
Yehuda Liebman, the head of Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva, told the Jerusalem Post that while the attacks have become more severe, the grave had always been left intact.
Israeli government spokesman Ra’anan Gissin said that the government will find a way to protect the site.
The Israeli news agency Arutz-7 News reports Israel Defense Forces is interested in restoring a Jewish civilian presence to Joseph’s Tomb.
“Army officers requested that the government enable Jews to pray and study there, as they did before the Oslo War, but the government did not do so,” Lt.-Col. Rabbi Avi Ronsky said.
Gissin said the desecration “shows the moral bankruptcy of the Palestinian Authority and points to the critical need for a change in leadership.”
Israeli archeologists say they have convincing documentation of the site’s authenticity, dating to biblical times. The book of Joshua says, according to the New International Version, “Joseph’s bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were buried at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of silver from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the inheritance of Joseph’s descendants.”
And of course we cannot forget about the Taliban destroying the Buddhas.
I don’t know… if they want to make tasteless cartoons, I can’t say that I’m very worried about it.
It beats the heck out of terrorizing innocent people or burning down embassies and the like.
In return they might get labelled anti-semitic or something.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Arab vandals desecrate Joseph’s Tomb
Gravestone of biblical patriarch ruined despite Palestinian pledge
[/quote]
Joseph is as important in Islam as he is in Christianity…
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
I don’t believe in Allah. I don’t believe Mohammed was a prophet of God. I perceive that he was demon-possessed according to historical accounts conveyed by his mother and his nanny (and the fact Mohammed confessed that an angel would frequently taunt him to throw himself of a cliff as an act of suicide for many years).
Aside from accounts that he’d go stark-raving mad and throw himself down to the ground in fits as a child quite often (or be thrown down by an internal force/entity), I think it belittles and disrespects the Muslim people to portray and distribute pictures of Mohammed as a pig. No good can come of this.
[/quote]
why do you make this up? how does that benefit you in any way? and if you didnt make it up, but read it somewhere, then you’re a complete idiot for believing it.
[quote]kroby wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
doogie wrote:
Kailash wrote:
#4, 10 and 11 are absolutely libellous and intolerable, imo, for the reasons mentioned above (and below).
Intolerable cartoons? Really? Intolerable?
Intolerable to the intolerant.
OUCH[/quote]
Yes, I don’t tolerate racism kindly.
Racism=intolerant=intolerable. Get it? “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” It’s a chained effect.
If they’re intolerant, then I find their intolerance intolerable. Not much I can do for these cartoonists here, who just can’t stand for a few Muslims immigrating to the kingdom of Denmark.