Making Fun of the Bearded Guy

[quote]Kailash wrote:
kroby wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
doogie wrote:
Kailash wrote:

#4, 10 and 11 are absolutely libellous and intolerable, imo, for the reasons mentioned above (and below).

Intolerable cartoons? Really? Intolerable?

Intolerable to the intolerant.

OUCH

Yes, I don’t tolerate racism kindly.

Racism=intolerant=intolerable. Get it? “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” It’s a chained effect.

If they’re intolerant, then I find their intolerance intolerable. Not much I can do for these cartoonists here, who just can’t stand for a few Muslims immigrating to the kingdom of Denmark.[/quote]

Wow – are you not aware of the circularity there? “I will not tolerate your intolerance…”

The best cure for offensive speech is more speech – speech logically explaining why one position is superior to the other, not just attempting to shout down or ban one side of the argument. If it’s a bad argument, the best thing to do is to demonstrate its flaws so everyone can understand them.

Zap Branigan wrote:

TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Arab vandals desecrate Joseph’s Tomb
Gravestone of biblical patriarch ruined despite Palestinian pledge

One can only imagine what would happen if an “infidel” was to desecrate the Dome of the Rock, or simply to enter Mecca.

Virginia Postrel has some very good thoughts on this subject, with which I agree wholeheartedly:

My response to this nonsense ( Anger Over Cartoons of Muhammad Escalates ) is to wonder why Muslims don’t grow up. If your co-religionists are going to take political stands, and blow up innocent people in the name of Islam, political cartoonists are going to occasionally take satirical swipes at your religion. Those swipes may not be nuanced, but they’re what you can expect when you live in a free society, where you, too, can hold views others find offensive. If you don’t like it, move to Saudi Arabia. Or just try to peacefully convert people to Islam. As Fred Barnes points out, the current cover of Rolling Stone ( http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/01/24/PH2006012400893.jpg ) is offensive to (hypersensitive, paranoid, publicity-seeking) Christians, but they aren’t threatening anyone with physical violence. (Here’s an article on that: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/01/30/BL2006013000496.html )

All of which is really just a lead-in to a plug for Jonathan Rauch’s excellent book Kindly Inquisitors ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=dynamistcom&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F0226705765%2Fqid%3D1138945942%2Fsr%3D1-1%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fs%3Dbooks%26v%3Dglance%26n%3D283155 ). Read it.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

TROUBLE IN THE HOLY LAND
Arab vandals desecrate Joseph’s Tomb
Gravestone of biblical patriarch ruined despite Palestinian pledge


Joseph is as important in Islam as he is in Christianity…[/quote]

Why did they do this? I stumbled across this when I was searching for examples of the cross being descrated and I found this.

This is far beyond an offensive picture.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Wow – are you not aware of the circularity there? “I will not tolerate your intolerance…”
[/quote]

That’s my point exactly.

[quote]harris447 wrote:
One can only imagine what would happen if an “infidel” was to desecrate the Dome of the Rock, or simply to enter Mecca.[/quote]

Israel HAS been desecrating the Temple Mount, but I guess you just hadn’t heard about it - disproving your point:

Maybe this ignorance demonstrates the bias in your chosen media outlets?

[quote]Kailash wrote:
harris447 wrote:
One can only imagine what would happen if an “infidel” was to desecrate the Dome of the Rock, or simply to enter Mecca.

Israel HAS been desecrating the Temple Mount, but I guess you just hadn’t heard about it - disproving your point:

Maybe this ignorance demonstrates the bias in your chosen media outlets?[/quote]

This is a poor example. It looks iffy.

[quote]silencer wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
I don’t believe in Allah. I don’t believe Mohammed was a prophet of God. I perceive that he was demon-possessed according to historical accounts conveyed by his mother and his nanny (and the fact Mohammed confessed that an angel would frequently taunt him to throw himself of a cliff as an act of suicide for many years).

Aside from accounts that he’d go stark-raving mad and throw himself down to the ground in fits as a child quite often (or be thrown down by an internal force/entity), I think it belittles and disrespects the Muslim people to portray and distribute pictures of Mohammed as a pig. No good can come of this.

why do you make this up? how does that benefit you in any way? and if you didnt make it up, but read it somewhere, then you’re a complete idiot for believing it.
[/quote]

See the ‘Brokeback Propaganda’ thread for further evidence of stupidity.

[quote]Kailash wrote:
harris447 wrote:
One can only imagine what would happen if an “infidel” was to desecrate the Dome of the Rock, or simply to enter Mecca.

Israel HAS been desecrating the Temple Mount, but I guess you just hadn’t heard about it - disproving your point:

Maybe this ignorance demonstrates the bias in your chosen media outlets?[/quote]

No, you see, if something HAD happened to the Temple Mount, there would be riots.

Therefore, nothing has happened.

I once took a massive dump and was shocked to discover that it spelled “Allah” in Arabic. My maniacal mind envisioned taking digital pictures of this prodigy and anonymously sending them to Al-Jazeera. Think of the shitstorm that would have generated.

Then I realized that the Hezbollah would trace my IP address and I’d look up one morning to see a 767 loaded with explosives heading for my house.

I think it’s funny for Christians and Jews to pick on Allah, however, considering that al ilah in Arabic means exactly what el eloh means in Hebrew: “the God”. The Koran is pretty much the Torah reinterpreted. In other words, if you shit on Allah, you shit on Yahweh/Jehovah. They’re all the same guy.

Those Danish Cartoons
Don’t Be Fooled This Isn’t an Issue of Islam versus Secularism
By ROBERT FISK

So now it’s cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed with a bomb-shaped turban. Ambassadors are withdrawn from Denmark, Gulf nations clear their shelves of Danish produce, Gaza gunmen threaten the European Union.

In Denmark, Fleming Rose, the “culture” editor of the pip-squeak newspaper which published these silly cartoons–last September, for heaven’s sake–announces that we are witnessing a “clash of civilisations” between secular Western democracies and Islamic societies. This does prove, I suppose, that Danish journalists follow in the tradition of Hans Christian Anderson.

Oh lordy, lordy. What we’re witnessing is the childishness of civilisations.

So let’s start off with the Department of Home Truths. This is not an issue of secularism versus Islam. For Muslims, the Prophet is the man who received divine words directly from God. We see our prophets as faintly historical figures, at odds with our high-tech human rights, almost cariacatures of themselves.

The fact is that Muslims live their religion. We do not. They have kept their faith through innumerable historical vicissitudes. We have lost our faith ever since Matthew Arnold wrote about the sea’s “long, withdrawing roar”. That’s why we talk about “the West versus Islam” rather than “Christians versus Islam”–because there aren’t an awful lot of Christians left in Europe.

There is no way we can get round this by setting up all the other world religions and asking why we are not allowed to make fun of Mohamed.

Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man.

I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled “September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God’s sake, don’t ask why”. When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase “for God’s sake” because “we didn’t want to offend certain sensibilities”. Ah-ha, so we have “sensibilities” too.

In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech–or cheap cartoons–we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much. I also enjoyed the pompous claims of European statesmen that they cannot control free speech or newspapers.

This is also nonsense. Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had “anti-Semitism” screamed into our ears–and rightly so–just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.

Furthermore, in some European nations–France is one, Germany and Austria are among the others–it is forbidden by law to deny acts of genocide. In France, for example, it is illegal to say that the Jewish Holocaust or the Armenian Holocaust did not happen.

So it is, in fact, impermissable to make certain statements in European nations. I’m still uncertain whether these laws attain their objectives; however much you may prescribe Holocaust denial, anti-Semites will always try to find a way round. We can hardly exercise our political restraints to prevent Holocaust deniers and then start screaming about secularism when we find that Muslims object to our provocative and insulting image of the Prophet.

For many Muslims, the “Islamic” reaction to this affair is an embarrassment. There is good reason to believe that Muslims would like to see some element of reform introduced to their religion. If this cartoon had advanced the cause of those who want to debate this issue, no-one would have minded. But it was clearly intended to be provocative. It was so outrageous that it only caused reaction.

And this is not a great time to heat up the old Samuel Huntingdon garbage about a “clash of civilisations”. Iran now has a clerical government again. So, to all intents and purposes, does Iraq (which was not supposed to end up with a democratically elected clerical administration, but that’s what happens when you topple dictators).

In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood won 20 per cent of the seats in the recent parliamentary elections. Now we have Hamas in charge of “Palestine”. There’s a message here, isn’t there? That America’s policies–“regime change” in the Middle East–are not achieving their ends. These millions of voters were preferring Islam to the corrupt regimes which we imposed on them.

For the Danish cartoon to be dumped on top of this fire is dangerous indeed.

In any event, it’s not about whether the Prophet should be pictured. The Koran does not forbid images of the Prophet even though millions of Muslims do. The problem is that these cartoons portrayed Mohamed as a bin Laden-type image of violence. They portrayed Islam as a violent religion. It is not. Or do we want to make it so?

I personally like this one.

I can’t believe Robert Fisk believes one lone lunatic lighting a fire for his personal beliefs is equivalent to organized widespread international acts of agression.

While there certainly may be inappropriate elements to various actions, statements and cartoons, the proper course of action is to point out why they are inappropriate.

Terrorism, or use of the threat of unlawful force, is not an appropriate way to voice discontent. Certain elements of Islam need to learn to speak via a means other than the barrel of a weapon.

Otherwise, I for one, will never listen.

Irish: Have you ever read the Koran?

I have. The sunnas as well. You might read them yourself before deciding whether or not Islam is a violent religion. Pay particular attent to the chapters on proselytizing, the Arabic word for which being jihad. You may be interested in seeing the frequency in which the term “a striking of necks” appears.

You see, Islam did not spread across the former Roman and Persian empires by means of a couple of guys in jellabahs going from tent to tent handing out copies of The Minaret magazine.

Ideally, a good jihad progresses thus:

  1. Find a group of infidels with hot chicks, fat camels, gold, silver, and good land.

  2. Invade land.

  3. Offer infidels the opportunity to embrace Islam (no compulsion, after all).

  4. If they refuse, take hot chicks, take camels, take gold, silver and land, then chop their fucking infidel heads off (“a striking of necks”).

  5. If they agree, al hamdul illah! More soldiers. Return to step one, repeat until failure.

Not, of course, to pick unduly on Islam. This is how quite a few religions spread.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Irish: Have you ever read the Koran?

I have. The sunnas as well. You might read them yourself before deciding whether or not Islam is a violent religion. Pay particular attent to the chapters on proselytizing, the Arabic word for which being jihad. You may be interested in seeing the frequency in which the term “a striking of necks” appears.

You see, Islam did not spread across the former Roman and Persian empires by means of a couple of guys in jellabahs going from tent to tent handing out copies of The Minaret magazine.

Ideally, a good jihad progresses thus:

  1. Find a group of infidels with hot chicks, fat camels gold, silver, and good land.

  2. Invade land.

  3. Offer infidels the opportunity to embrace Islam (no compulsion, after all).

  4. If they refuse, take hot chicks, take camels, take gold, silver and land, then chop their fucking infidel heads off (“a striking of necks”).

  5. If they agree, al hamdul illah! More soldiers. Return to step one, repeat until failure.

Not, of course, to pick unduly on Islam. This is how quite a few religions spread.
[/quote]

I just posted that article because I thought it was interesting.

I’m trying to formulate my ideals about this, getting past my initial incredibly angry post about how we should kill them.

I have to admit, they do take themselves more seriously than other religions do, and they seem to be more violent.

On the other hand, Christianity has an intensely violent history, from murdering those that opposed the Church, to starting the crusades, to the great wars that occured on their behalf.

Christianity also controlled countries like Islam does- look at Ireland, pretty much only until recently, with the kickstart in their economy and what not, did they start not relying on the church for everything.

When a country is poor, they are far more susceptible to the undue influence of religious zealots. And so Islam stands to control most of the uncivilized world over there. It is truly a conundrum here.

But is a jihad really any different than the Catholics racing to protect the Holy Land? I don’t know. I think Islam will…“outgrow” this. Unless they keep on a constant collision course with the West, in which case the world ends.

What a strange world.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

On the other hand, Christianity has an intensely violent history, from murdering those that opposed the Church, to starting the crusades, to the great wars that occured on their behalf.

Christianity also controlled countries like Islam does- look at Ireland, pretty much only until recently, with the kickstart in their economy and what not, did they start not relying on the church for everything.

But is a jihad really any different than the Catholics racing to protect the Holy Land? I don’t know. I think Islam will…“outgrow” this. Unless they keep on a constant collision course with the West, in which case the world ends. [/quote]

Which is what I meant by “[quote]this is how quite a few religions spread.[/quote]”.

To call Islam a violent religion while discounting the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation et cetera etcetera is hypocrisy of the highest degree. Or for that matter, to talk about a “promised land” that only fell into Hebrew hands in the first place by virtue of a campaign of genocide across Canaan following the Exodus.

Off the bat, I can’t think of any religion that hasn’t been used at one time or another as an excuse for rape, murder and armed robbery on a national level.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

On the other hand, Christianity has an intensely violent history, from murdering those that opposed the Church, to starting the crusades, to the great wars that occured on their behalf.

Christianity also controlled countries like Islam does- look at Ireland, pretty much only until recently, with the kickstart in their economy and what not, did they start not relying on the church for everything.

But is a jihad really any different than the Catholics racing to protect the Holy Land? I don’t know. I think Islam will…“outgrow” this. Unless they keep on a constant collision course with the West, in which case the world ends.

Which is what I meant by “this is how quite a few religions spread.”.

To call Islam a violent religion while discounting the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation et cetera etcetera is hypocrisy of the highest degree. Or for that matter, to talk about a “promised land” that only fell into Hebrew hands in the first place by virtue of a campaign of genocide across Canaan following the Exodus.

Off the bat, I can’t think of any religion that hasn’t been used at one time or another as an excuse for rape, murder and armed robbery on a national level.

[/quote]

This is all true. Of course Islam appears to be the only major religion that is still using violence at a major level.

Mark Steyn, as usual, has an amusing and sensible take on the issue:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn05.html

Sorry, if I’ve missed it, but can anybody post an actual link to the cartoons.

Or has the whole world turned gay for fear of the peace loving moslems?

http://blog.newspaperindex.com/2005/12/10/un-to-investigate-jyllands-posten-racism/