You don’t speak for everyone. I don’t tell people who they should take seriously, I leave it up to them. You are not the know it all of all things nor do I claim to be. If you notice, I haven’t just been quoting him and he has included other sources as well. But of course they aren’t valid according TO YOU because he is JEWISH.
You must be getting paid quite a bundle by the PLO for your replies as well right? That was a legitimate cause right?
What is the core of the Palestinian ideology? Destroy Israel and infidels? Yeah nice try.
I am not clinging, just giving you one example but don’t cry out loud, it is not very attractive. But obviously you agree he is a nutjob right?
History also shows that the Palestinians are a political movement and not a country and that the Jews defeated them in countless wars the Paelstinians as well as Lebanon, Syria and a host of other countries started yet they still give up land that was officially recognized as theirs. Violent? Please, they have negotiated and negotiated and arafat refused and refused.
What are palestinians and terrorists? Freedom fighters as Arafat called them? Please. Seriously? supremacists? you are really showing your true colors
That is what they are called by the media and Arafat, funny you don’t dispute that.
Exactly because there isn’t one.
No I am lighting your strawmen on fire and burning them.
AHh now you are calling me ignorant. You are a magnificent debater. Have I called you names? Nope. The source where I am getting this from is not a newspaper. DO some research and check it.
Yes because they want all the land and can’t and will not live side by side with Israel.
Notice it didn't say Arab country. That's because it is a REGION. NOT a country and it was never all Arab as I pointed out but you ignore that.
RIght because they want ALL The land despite losing it and not being theirs in the first place. They were defeated. Last time I checked if someone lost a war the winners didn’t give up the land they earned.
Misled? Isreal wasn’t even allowed a voice in the UN back then.
Un Prestige? Ha that is hilarious. The UN is a joke. How did they handle RWANDA?
f
Of course they will oppose it. They are trying to rewrite history
"The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out �?? man women and child.[/i]
THis rehtoric plain and simple and there is the ideology you are talking about. Wiping out man women and child. That is logic? That is sound reasoning? I would like to see where the ISraelis say that. Sounds like Hitler all over againn. It is no wonder Mein Kampf was read by many in that region. History has shown that the UN has been totally unfair to Israel with its respect towards delegations. Palestinians have had a voice where historically Israel has not.
You also don’t give a rat’s ass about history apparently.
Distortions by a politcial movement and YOU.
That’s all you got, wow.
They are a majority in the MIddle East. Look at a map!!!
Yeah, yeah. “A land without people for a people without a land”. We get it!
You don’t get it. JAPAN is A COUNTRY. It is like Petoria in family guy. I do hope you watch Family guy. BEST SHOW EVER.
Probably because they are a political movement and were not recognized as a seaprate entity.
The Lebanese? Great example of another country involved in safe havens for terrorists and anti-semitism.
They wouldn’t be refugees if the Arab countries accepted them just as ISrael accepted the Jewish refugees. See that?
But the Syrians help with terrorist activies but that is getting off track.
Sticks and stones can break your bones. Tanks and jet-fighters will annihilate you beyond repair.
But they don’t target the innocent civilians. Again we are going in circles.
Please, Hamas is very relevant.
They have been given billions of aid and Arafat pocketed that. Whose fault is that? Israel? Please
Dim witted? SO you admit that has nothing to do with the ISraelis. Please admit Arafat did not help the Palestinians.
Ah the ol some of my best friends are…routine. Doesn’t hold up, sorry. I provided many different non-Jewish statements to refute your statements
Palestinian media? Hmmm you mean like false injuries and bollywood shams that pretend Israel is attacking them. Planted ambulances and stuff like that. Yeah Palestinians are very reliable sources.
You are the kid.
Syrians? Jordanians. There ya go, there ya go there ya go (PEter Griffin style)
a majority of Palestinians in the country.
Where are the other countries? Where is the help? Arab countries don’ t them any aid, the US provides most of the aid. And there are Palestinians in Israel just in case you were wondering.
That’s not Israelis fault that they don’t want to be part of Jordan. Thank you.
Yes and the Palestinians wish there was no Israel and like Iran, they want them off the map. Get it?
So why did you ask for my race if you are not trying to be anti-semitic or evoke a race card especially if the two are exclusive? CLASSIC!!!
If you can show me Palestinians willing to live side by side with ISrael that would be an even better case.
.
OOOOOH good one. What a gem. You couldn’t even help me with the quote feature. What a decent guy you are.
[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
You don’t speak for everyone. I don’t tell people who they should take seriously, I leave it up to them. You are not the know it all of all things nor do I claim to be.
If you notice, I haven’t just been quoting him and he has included other sources as well. But of course they aren’t valid according TO YOU because he is JEWISH. [/quote]
Are you kidding me? Where did I mention the man is Jewish?
I wrote that he is the director of the Jewish Virtual Library and editor of AIPAC’s newsletter. Both of which, are major organs of the Zionist propaganda. The stated goal of AIPAC being to lobby the US government in favor of Israel.
The idea that I dismiss him based on the fact that he’s Jewish is ludicrous. It’s as stupid as dismissing Finkelstein’s writings because he’s a Jew.
�??Why should these Palestinians, who have lived in Jerusalem for hundreds of years, be evicted from their homes so that Jews from Brooklyn can live in them?�?? – N. Finkelstein
I have no affiliation with any Palestinian group, and I wouldn’t be caught dead associating with any of them. Bard gets paid by a group whose aim is to influence American opinion in favor of Zionism, and there’s nothing you can do about that.
And to compare money the PLO allocates to PR with that of AIPAC is laughable.
They don’t have much ideology beyond survival and getting back the land of their ancestors.
Our opinions nonetheless diverge on many issues, but I don’t consider him a nutjob.
Besides, what do you do about all the rest? Do you file them under “nutjob” as well?
I don’t know about that. From my perspective, it seems like it is Israel that had no vested interests in negotiations. After all, the status quo is in their favor and has been for decades.
[quote]Funny you should associate “palestinians”[sic] with “terrorists”, and then fake outrage over the use of the term “supremacist”.
That is what they are called by the media and Arafat, funny you don’t dispute that.[/quote]
Huh? Not following.
[quote]Whovever said there ever was a “COUNTRY PALESTINE”? I sure didn’t!
Exactly because there isn’t one.[/quote]
Well, duh! That’s what this whole conflict is about smarty pants.
[quote]You keep building up these strawmen in your head.
No I am lighting your strawmen on fire and burning them. [/quote]
Awww…you are the one making up arguments. My questions are pretty concise. You disregard them and go on making assumptions about my position.
When you end a passage with (Jerusalem Post, NOvember 2, 1991), one would assume that you are referencing the newspaper. Which I did, and you challenged that.
Is it so unfair of me to start doubting your intellectual abilities?
[quote]"a. The Arabs of Palestine will never recognize the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.
Yes because they want all the land and can’t and will not live side by side with Israel.
"b. The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power or group of powers to establish a Jewish State in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense by force.
Notice it didn’t say ASrab country. That’s because it is a REGION. NOT a country and it was never all Arab as I pointed out but you ignore that.[/quote]
Again with this strawman?
My quote asserts that the locals did not accept the establishment of a Zionist state on their lands. Imperial powers disregarded that and many decades later, here we are.
[quote]c. It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate wit the said commission.
RIght because they want ALL The land despite losing it and not being theirs in the first place. They were defeated. Last time I checked if someone lost a war the winners didn’t give up the land they earned.[/quote]
Not quite. What they feared (and justly so), was the establishment of a Zionist state that would alienate people across the region and create resentment between religious communities.
Sure enough, now Israelis regard Arabs as “cockroaches”,
�??When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle�?? – Rafael Etain (IDF Chief and Deputy Prime Minister)
And Arabs of the region don’t regard Jews in better light either.
The root cause is clearly and unambiguously the Zionist movement.
[quote]d. The United Nations or its commission should not be misled the believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet wit any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.
Misled? Isreal wasn’t even allowed a voice back then.[/quote]
Foreign powers were doing their bidding for them.
[quote]e. The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.
Un Prestige? Ha that is hilarious. The UN is a joke. How did they handle RWANDA?[/quote]
You do realize that the quote is from long ago, don’t you?
[quote]f. The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.
Of course they will oppose it. They are trying to rewrite history[/quote]
For Heaven’s sake, that was from 1948. What history were they trying to rewrite back then?
[quote]g. The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.
"The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out �?? man women and child.[/i]
THis rehtoric plain and simple and there is the ideology you are talking about. Wiping out man women and child. That is logic? That is sound reasoning? I would like to see where the ISraelis say that.
Sounds like Hitler all over againn. It is no wonder Mein Kampf was read by many in that region. History has shown that the UN has been totally unfair to Israel with its respect towards delegations. Palestinians have had a voice where historically Israel has not.[/quote]
Finally! Godwin’s law never fails.
Look, I provided the quote to show you how much the people over there were opposed to the relocation of Jews from all over the world to the region. I don’t give a shit about anything else but the victims in this case.
That Hitler killed Jews was no a reason to punish Palestinians. There are Holocaust survivors opposed to Zionism, so don’t give me that shit about Hitler. In fact, Finkelstein - one of the most vocal critics of Israel - is the son of a survivor of Warsaw Ghetto and the infamous Auschwitz.
I care about history very much. Just not the one-sided crap spewed by AIPAC.
[quote]And your point would be…?
Distortions by a politcial movement and YOU. [/quote]
Distortions, my knee! This is a giant strawman and you know it.
[quote]It’s sad, but the causality is unambiguous.
That’s all you got, wow.[/quote]
Well, yeah. What did you expect? What goes around comes around.
[quote]And if you ask me, the worst is yet to come. You wait until the Arabs become a demographic majority and watch!
They are a majority in the MIddle East. Look at a map!!![/quote]
Not in Israel, they aren’t. But they’re getting there.
[quote]The US occupied Japan after WWII. There is no country that Israel is occupying. NO COUNTRY. NO one was there before, it was barren land.
Yeah, yeah. “A land without people for a people without a land”. We get it!
Save that speech for someone who might fall for it.
You don’t get it. JAPAN is A COUNTRY. [/quote]
Oh, I get it alright! That’s a rationale used to justify imperialism since a long time.
“See, this land where these red-skinned folks reside is NOT A COUNTRY.”
I suppose that for uncultivated attention-span deficient people, it might be.
[quote]Most of the Arabs countries refuse them.
Gee…I wonder why?
Probably because they are a political movement and anti-semitic and they can’t live side by side with Israelis. [/quote]
Seeing how Arabs are Semites, that’ll be pretty hard to pull off. But if you mean that they don’t like Jews, then yes. But it’s likely to be a post-Zionism acquired trait.
As for the rest, I could have told you that in 1948. See my U.N. commission quote above.
[quote]How much land does Israel have compared to the other Arab countries? A SPECK!. Look at a map and you’ll see.
Again, how on Earth are “the other Arab countries” relevant to a discussion about the people made refugees by Israel?
They wouldn’t be refugees if the Arab countries accepted them just as ISrael accepted the Jewish refugees. See that? [/quote]
You ain’t making any sense! Without Zionism, there wouldn’t have been any refugees in the first place.
Cause and effect. Learn it.
[quote]This is about Palestinians, not Egyptians or Syrians.
But the Syrians help with terrorist activies but that is getting off track.[/quote]
The recent talks between Tel-Aviv and Damascus are sure disturbing for Washington. They came hours after Bush’s “appeasement” speech to the Knesset.
I know a few cemeteries that beg to differ.
[quote]And Hamas is a recent phenomenon.
Please, they are very relevant.[/quote]
They are relevant, but one shouldn’t focus on them. That would be a case of recentism.
[quote]They have been given billions of aid and Arafat pocketed that. Whose fault is that? Israel? Please
Root cause, my dim-witted friend. Root cause.
Dim witted? SO you admit that has nothing to do with the ISraelis.
Please admit Arafat did not help the Palestinians. [/quote]
He did not. But it’s hard to pin the blame on him. I mean, in the 90s, came the one serious opportunity for long-term peace. Then some criminal killed Rabin, and with it, the prospect for peace.
[quote]I know my fair share of Jewish people who denounce Zionism and Israel’s actions. I asked because you seemed very concerned about the topic. To the point where you started to make arguments in your head, then knocked them down.
Ah the ol some of my best friends are…routine. Doesn’t hold up, sorry. I provided many different non-Jewish statements to refute your statements [/quote]
Boy, oh boy! Whoever said anything about "best friends?
You provided nothing. Give me ONE breathing Palestinian that doesn’t condemn Israel. I, on the other hand, can list hundreds of Israelis that harshly condemn the criminal behavior the Zionist state.
[quote]And I bet you could! But see, you’ll have to name Palestinians for this to work.
Palestinian media? Hmmm you mean like false injuries and bollywood shams that pretend Israel is attacking them. Planted ambulances and stuff like that. Yeah Plaestinians are very reliable sources. [/quote]
I give up. You’re clearly unable to follow a simple argument.
[quote]Keep up, kid.
You are the kid.[/quote]
If I had to guess, I’d say that you’re not even legal drinking age.
Not that it’s an excuse to be stupid. I’ll refer you to a regular here that goes by the name of Beowolf (and who happens to be Jewish by the way).
[quote]]I’ll ask you for the last time (and if my count is right, that’s the third time), what term do you use when referring to the millions of people stuck in Gaza, the refugees, etc? If you’re opposed to the use of Palestinians, then surely you must have something in mind.
Syrians? Jordanians. There ya go, there ya go there ya go (PEter Griffin style) [/quote]
How does one differentiate between the folks in Damascus and the one that got kicked out of Jerusalem and flooded refugee camps?
[quote]This is not history. This is a present day fact. In 1988, Jordan severed relations with the West Bank and stopped giving out citizenship to Palestinians. And I can’t say I blame them either. There is currently a majority of Palestinians in the country.
Where are the other countries? Where is the help? Arab countries don’ t them any aid, the US provides most of the aid. And there are Palestinians in Israel just in case you were wondering.
That’s not Israelis fault that they don’t want to be part of Jordan. Thank you. [/quote]
Again, this is a strawman. I never said Arab countries gave Palestinians any aid, nor that they give a shit about them.
But I do know that they wouldn’t be in this state had Zionism not taken over their lands.
[quote]ANd plenty of Europeans (hint hint) who trash Israel any chance they get think they know better. I understand that anti-semitism is alive and well out there in Europe.
Here we go again. Equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism.
Classic!
So why did you ask for my race if you are not trying to be anti-semitic especially if the two are exclusive? CLASSIC!!! [/quote]
I fail to see any relationship between asking about one’s background and anti-semitism.
That you should make infer anything from my question is your problem.
[quote]If Ronnie Coleman was a historian…“everybody wants to be a historian, but nobody wants to read heavy ass books.”
I’m still trying to learn how to use this quote feature so forgive me for not including your statements as well.
Must be all those “heavy ass books” getting in the way of your learning.
OOOOOH good one. What a gem. You couldn’t even help me with the quote feature. What a decent guy you are. [/quote]
You didn’t ask for my help, now did you? Besides, if you can’t learn from observation such simple things, then I probably would not interested in debating you any further. And it’s not just because your posts are a pain to decipher either…
Why did you ask for my race then? Again I didn’t say it is the SOLE reason but it defintely is one but you won’t admit that.
What is the DEFINITION OF ANTI ZIONIST. Please give me a definition of being anti zionist stay on topic. You choose to view the history as propaganda because it dopesn’t support YOUR AGENDA. ANything that is factual that doesnt go along with your opinion or the line youve been fed is defined as p[ropaganda. What is the definition of anti-zionism. WHere should they be then.
You dismiss him because his views support the fact that the “Palestinians” are a made up political term after the War. Can you site them in the Bible? Again, the region was not only Arab.
Who said they were evicted from homes? WHo said it? There was a Palestinian homeland set up. It was rejected in 47, and rejected by Arafat. Lived in Jerusalem? Jews from Brooklyn? Yeah that is sound reasoning by a guilty Jewish person. I dismiss him because he sounds like a nutcase with self hating qualities. Is Jerusalem in the Koran? I’d like you to cite that too.
You must be getting paid quite a bundle by the PLO for your replies as well right? That was a legitimate cause right?
A Jewish person supporting Israel? The nerve and with historical evidence. WOW more nerve.
What ancestors? CIte the source in the BIBLE or KORAN.
History also shows that the Palestinians are a political movement and not a country and that the Jews defeated them in countless wars the Palestinians as well as Lebanon, Syria and a host of other countries started yet they still give up land that was officially recognized as theirs. Violent? Please, they have negotiated and negotiated and arafat refused and refused.
YOU SURE DONT
Status quo, their land has been diminishing and diminishing over the years due to negotiations yet the Palestinian attacks haven’;t subsided. The only status quo is the Palestinians attacks and hate mongering.
According to you strawman is anything that doesn’t support your anti ISRAEL agenda.
ANd I had quotes to reflect that ARabs rejected Palestine did not exist was not recognized as a separate entity. We are going in circles.
What do you mean by Zionist state? Say what you Mean. You mean a jewish state. Say Jewish state. Dont hide behind the usual liberal verbiage. How many Jewish suicide bombers you know who blow themselves up. That is utter garbage. Say what you mean. Say Jewish stop hiding behand fancy words. The state of Israel was estblished in 1948, this region was around long before then.
ANd what do the “Palestinians” refer to Israelis? Oh I forgot they refuse to acknowledge Israel on a map.
Again say what you mean. Your ZIonist garbage is not fooling me.
Foreign powers are not the same thing.
COUNTRY? It wasn’t a country. Who was there? A few years of Jewish settlement in that region must be propaganda. Presence of Jews is evidence by presence of the temple mount and archaelogical artifacts but I guess that is PROPAganda because it doesnt support your world view. Jews were never in the middle east right? The area was a wasteland inhabited by nomads. NO COUNTRY.
THOSE ASRE ONE SMALL SECT OF RELIGIOUS JEWS. you are using that as a representation of Jewish people? THat is one small obscure portion who are not opposed to Jewish homeland.
They are opposed to it in a certain sequence because of religious beliefs. Check your facts before you use faulty logic. I know the sect and they kiss the feet of Iranian PResident. They Only oppose the homeland before the Messiah. You left it out.
BUT THERE WILL BE A JEWISH HOMELAND according to these beliefs!!! PLenty of ARabs opposed to terrorism but you dont mention that!!! Name one democracy in MIDDLE EAST!!! THey hate Israel because Israel represents democracy for the dictatorial leaders they are.
What about the Jewish refugees kicked out of every single Arab country. I dont see you concerned. What safe haven were they given. What fair response to Israel’s creation were they given. How come Mein Kampf is the best selling books.
ANd you have the nerve to say the Arab countries want to live and let live. The PLO charter has never eliminated its goal of eliminating Israel. Arafat is not Palestinian. He is born in Egypt. He is a fraud. Anti semitic pro Hitler worms. Read your history. From your safe couch in Sweden dictate who are bombed what is right and wrong.
Arabs had every opportunity but they rejected it.
YOU are hiding behind anti-zionism to mask your anti semitism. STOP HIDING.
You seem to let your opinions get in the way of the facts YOU LOSE!!! Stop the nonsense.
OH and lets call the “Palestinians” ARABS. OH SNAP HOW ABOUT THAT SHIZZLE? ARABS!!! WHat a friggin concept.
Couple of things pulled from the charter of Hamas.
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”
“The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement’s programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.”
“It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.”
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”
No doubt Hamas has been, and currently is, radicalized. And this is a thing of horror that needs to be faced. No doubt about it. And yet, we also have to face the question of “how and why have they been radicalized?” If (American-funded) Israeli tanks came crashing through my house, I reckon I’d be pretty fucking radicalized too. Nothing in that region happens ex nihilo.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
dk44 wrote:
Down goes Lixy! Down goes Lixy!
You Got Knocked Tha Fuck Out!
Nope. Lixy’s winning.
HE JUST LOST
Should I conclude this on the basis of your say-so, or your above rant? I mean post.[/quote]
Actually I shouldn’t have answered your post so I am sorry about that. But since you did post this gem:
“No doubt Hamas has been, and currently is, radicalized. And this is a thing of horror that needs to be faced. No doubt about it. And yet, we also have to face the question of “how and why have they been radicalized?” If (American-funded) Israeli tanks came crashing through my house, I reckon I’d be pretty fucking radicalized too. Nothing in that region happens ex nihilo”.
I will say that based on your logic, every Jew should become a suicide bomber as a result of being radicalized by Hamas as you claim and every Jew should go around attacking Germans because of the Holocaust because they were radicalized.
There are no Jewish suicide bombers and there are no Holocaust suicide bombers.
I will say that based on your logic, every Jew should become a suicide bomber as a result of being radicalized by Hamas as you claim and every Jew should go around attacking Germans because of the Holocaust because they were radicalized.
There are no Jewish suicide bombers and there are no Holocaust suicide bombers.
[/quote]
You might want to use the quotation thingdos (I described how you can do so above), so no one attributes my ill-informed quote to you
Your argument has some force, especially in the case of the Holocaust - though my answer would be that during the Holocaust there wasn’t any time or chance for the Jews to get radicalized in the way that Hamas has been radicalized. The Jews were trying to keep a low profile, or they were under the direct control of the Gestapo, being rounded up, transported, or in camps.
As far as why there aren’t any “Jewish suicide bombers,” I imagine there would be if once upon a time there was a thriving Jewish community in, say, Eastern Bolivia - and, one day, the world community pushed them aside and out of their houses and so on to make room for a newly-minted country called, New Palestine.
And not only was this New Palestine backed up by the approval of world governments, an American-funded war machine crushed to death anyone who protested this change of affairs. Yeah, in that case I imagine we would have plenty Jewish suicide bombers.
I will say that based on your logic, every Jew should become a suicide bomber as a result of being radicalized by Hamas as you claim and every Jew should go around attacking Germans because of the Holocaust because they were radicalized.
There are no Jewish suicide bombers and there are no Holocaust suicide bombers.
You might want to use the quotation thingdos (I described how you can do so above), so no one attributes my ill-informed quote to you
Your argument has some force, especially in the case of the Holocaust - though my answer would be that during the Holocaust there wasn’t any time or chance for the Jews to get radicalized in the way that Hamas has been radicalized. The Jews were trying to keep a low profile, or they were under the direct control of the Gestapo, being rounded up, transported, or in camps.
As far as why there aren’t any “Jewish suicide bombers,” I imagine there would be if once upon a time there was a thriving Jewish community in, say, Eastern Bolivia - and, one day, the world community pushed them aside and out of their houses and so on to make room for a newly-minted country called, New Palastine.
And not only was this New Palastine backed up by the approval of world governments, an American-funded war machine crushed to death anyone who protested this change of affairs. Yeah, in that case I imagine we would have plenty Jewish suicide bombers.
[/quote]
I try to use the quote but I don’t how to get your quote that different shade of grey and separate it from my statements which should be yellow. I didn’t say ill informed, you said that but the moral relativism doesn’t hold up.
I am saying after the fact, Jews could have turned it around and target ALL Germans in the name of a Holy War or retribution but they didn’t.
Imagined scenarios and hypothticals do not hold up because Israel does not carry out suicide bombing missions despite the suicide bombers coming from the other side. PLus the Jews do not promise each other virgins in heaven if they carry out the mission. That is not their ideology.
We would be going in circles again if I were to tell you that Palestine is not a new nor a country. The temple mounts and archaelogical findings prove that there were Jewish people in MIddle East not just Arabs.
I try to use the quote but I don’t how to get your quote that different shade of grey and separate it from my statements which should be yellow.
[/quote]
See my above post, about mid-way up the previous page.
[quote]
I didn’t say ill informed, you said that but the moral relativism doesn’t hold up. [/quote]
Me no moral relativist. Seriously. If you find me to be, please spank me.
No doubt the Jews have suffered. However, there’s a huge difference here: the whole world came to the aid of Jews during and then especially after the war.
The world set up a freakin’ new state for them. They have been sympathized with, praised, assisted, massively funded, a whole slew of Hollywood movies have been made about their plight, etc… Why on earth would they feel the need to strap bombs to themselves?
My scenario isn’t all that hypothetical. It’s a sketch of actual historical fact. Simply substitute Jerusalem and its environs for “East Bolivia,” and switch Jews and Palestinians.
Ok at least you have a sense of humor about the spanking.
There has been aid and recognition given to the Palestinians. General Assembly voted in 1948 to establish the UN relief fund for Palestinian refugees to dispense aid to refugees and repleaced by the UNWRA in 1949 which was given a budget of 50 million big ones.
The arab governments and refugees themselves were unwilling to contribute to any plan that could be interpreted as fostering resettlement. THey preferred to cling to Resolution 194 which they felt would evetually result in repartition. Arab states have NOT provided most of the funding.
The world didn’t set up the state. The JEws won their independence with minimal help from the West. The US might have supported the partition but the State Department did not to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves.
The arabs had no difficulty arming themselves. Jordan’s Arab Legion was trained by the British and led by a BRitish officer. Jews were forced to smuggle weapons from Czechoslovakia. The arab war to destroy Israel failed.
The US and most other states recognized Israel soon after it declared independence on May 14, 1948.
Imagined scenarios and hypothticals do not hold up because Israel does not carry out suicide bombing missions despite the suicide bombers coming from the other side
It is hypothetical and if you only rely on hypotheticals, then it is not a real argument. SOme people hope that Israel would behave like suicide bombers to support their argument but the fact is that Israel does not behave that way or have ideologies that make suicide bombing a glorious thing.
[/quote]
Still don’t know how to get my font to be in yellow and yours in grey, it makes the whole thing yellow. I did respond to each of your points individually by quoting but then I’d hit submit and everything would either be all grey and I wind up deleting your statements so you wouldn’t be confused as to where my post was. SOrry about that
[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
The US might have supported the partition but the State Department did not to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves. [/quote]
Defend themselves? They’re the aggressors in the story. Nobody told them to relocate en masse to the Middle East.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
The US might have supported the partition but the State Department did not to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves.
Defend themselves? They’re the aggressors in the story. Nobody told them to relocate en masse to the Middle East.
Oh, wait…God did, right?[/quote]
According to you they were the aggressors. Story? Not a story. You call history a story? Not a surprise. Ha you don’t let up do you Mr. Anti Zionist but Not Anti-Semitic. Way to divert the point. The arabs with the weapons were the aggressors and Israel won plain and simple.
Who told the “Palestinians” they should be there? Arafat? Mr. fraud Palestinain who was born in Egypt. The Koran? THe BIBLE? The PLO?
Footsoldier - First, as I said earlier, I don’t know much about this subject, so forgive me for my ignorance. Second, of course history is a narrative, a story. What else do you think it is??
[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
There has been aid and recognition given to the Palestinians. General Assembly voted in 1948 to establish the UN relief fund for Palestinian refugees to dispense aid to refugees and repleaced by the UNWRA in 1949 which was given a budget of 50 million big ones.
The arab governments and refugees themselves were unwilling to contribute to any plan that could be interpreted as fostering resettlement. THey preferred to cling to Resolution 194 which they felt would evetually result in repartition.
[/quote]
What I find odd about this is you seem to have already assumed that it was somehow legal and morally righteous for the Jews to move in to a territory and declare it theirs. That does seem a little odd to me. Again, perhaps I am misinformed. Anyway, why should the Palestinians agree to getting moved off their land?
I was under the impression that the British government essentially paved the way for the creation of Israel by granting them land that wasn’t theirs to give. I’m sure you will correct me on this point.
So, what your saying is, not only did the west (via the UN partition) essentially sanction, support, and legally justify the taking of Palestinian land, and the creation of the state of Israel on that land, but they should have supplied them with arms too? WTF?
You asked why there are no Jewish suicide bombers. The answer can only be a counterfactual: had the Jews been treated like the Palestinians have been, perhaps now there would be Jewish suicide bombers. Since the Jews have not had the precise history of the arabs/palestinians, we’ll never know for sure. It’s a thought experiment, a useful exercise, a counterfactual example. Historians do it all the time.
The answer lies in a sixth century man named Mohammed, who, while alive, slaughtered many Jews, including the harmless Jewish farmers at the Khaibar Oasis. His Jew-hatred and paranoia became enshrined as “enlightened” doctrine in the Koran, Hadith, and Sirah. Surah 1 of the Qur’an, for example, describes Jews as “those consigned to hell.”
[quote]Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
The US might have supported the partition but the State Department did not to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves.
Defend themselves? They’re the aggressors in the story. Nobody told them to relocate en masse to the Middle East.
Oh, wait…God did, right?
Please explain why what YOUR god says in the Koran is absolute and enlightened truth, but you can dismiss what his god says. [/quote]
For one thing, I am a monotheist. God is God and there’s no such thing as “my god” or “his god”.
What is a problem with Zionists, is the fact that they think they are doing God’s work. Now, I don’t know about you, but kicking people out of their homes and oppressing them when they haven’t done anything to you is not something right, regardless what your local guru says.
I don’t know much about Judaism, but I do know the difference between a promise and a commandment. And as far as I can tell, God promised to the Jews their land back (hence the term “promise-land”). He didn’t tell them to massively flood the region and take it at gunpoint.
And once again, Jews of every denomination challenge Zionism on a regular basis.
I believe in the absolute nature of the Word of God, but anything that goes against the golden rule, I treat as corruption of said Word. And Zionism can’t possibly be farther from it.
Now, sure, Israel is here and we have to deal with it. I would certainly oppose any effort to kick out the Jews of the region. I have huge doubts about the feasibility of a two-state solution (I advocate a single state), but as the general consensus leans towards it, I can only support it and hope for the best.
What is troublesome, is the inability of some people (very very very few) to condemn Zionism as an ideology. Meaning, if it had to be done all over again, they would still be behind the effort that caused so much pain and suffering, with the consequences we all know.
