Majority of Isrealis Support Hamas Peace Talks

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
lixy wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
The US might have supported the partition but the State Department did not to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves.

Defend themselves? They’re the aggressors in the story. Nobody told them to relocate en masse to the Middle East.

Oh, wait…God did, right?

Please explain why what YOUR god says in the Koran is absolute and enlightened truth, but you can dismiss what his god says.

For one thing, I am a monotheist. God is God and there’s no such thing as “my god” or “his god”.

What is a problem with Zionists, is the fact that they think they are doing God’s work. Now, I don’t know about you, but kicking people out of their homes and oppressing them when they haven’t done anything to you is not something right, regardless what your local guru says.

I don’t know much about Judaism, but I do know the difference between a promise and a commandment. And as far as I can tell, God promised to the Jews their land back (hence the term “promise-land”). He didn’t tell them to massively flood the region and take it at gunpoint.

And once again, Jews of every denomination challenge Zionism on a regular basis.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

I believe in the absolute nature of the Word of God, but anything that goes against the golden rule, I treat as corruption of said Word. And Zionism can’t possibly be farther from it.

Now, sure, Israel is here and we have to deal with it. I would certainly oppose any effort to kick out the Jews of the region. I have huge doubts about the feasibility of a two-state solution (I advocate a single state), but as the general consensus leans towards it, I can only support it and hope for the best.

What is troublesome, is the inability of some people (very very very few) to condemn Zionism as an ideology. Meaning, if it had to be done all over again, they would still be behind the effort that caused so much pain and suffering, with the consequences we all know.[/quote]

According to you there is one GOd.

I did not ask the question about YOUR GOD so please stop including other questions and pretending I said them.

Ahh so you admit you don’ tk now much about Judaism, there we have it, but you sure claim to know a lot about “Palestinians”. Furthermore, Palestinians believe they are doing “somebody’s” work perhaps ALLAH through suicide bombing? HMMMMMMMMMM What is the Palestinian ideology? WHO told them they had to be there? Arafat? THe PLO? Again, answer the question.

ANd please tell me the definition of ZIONISM. YOU are deflecting and deflecting.

Israel has to deal with the Palestians, a political movement who lost the war they waged. Israel declared independence after victory. They were in the MIddle East long before the political movement and the religion was established long before the “Palestinians”. THey didn’t come from Brooklyn as some idiots think.

And you are using a SMALL sect of a community as an example but they do believe in A JEWISH HOMELAND.You are hiding your anti-semitism behind anti-Zionism. Just say you are anti-Israel and be done with it.

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[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Footsoldier - First, as I said earlier, I don’t know much about this subject, so forgive me for my ignorance. Second, of course history is a narrative, a story. What else do you think it is??

Footsolider88 wrote:
There has been aid and recognition given to the Palestinians. General Assembly voted in 1948 to establish the UN relief fund for Palestinian refugees to dispense aid to refugees and repleaced by the UNWRA in 1949 which was given a budget of 50 million big ones.

The arab governments and refugees themselves were unwilling to contribute to any plan that could be interpreted as fostering resettlement. THey preferred to cling to Resolution 194 which they felt would evetually result in repartition.

What I find odd about this is you seem to have already assumed that it was somehow legal and morally righteous for the Jews to move in to a territory and declare it theirs. That does seem a little odd to me. Again, perhaps I am misinformed. Anyway, why should the Palestinians agree to getting moved off their land?

The world didn’t set up the state. The JEws won their independence with minimal help from the West.

I was under the impression that the British government essentially paved the way for the creation of Israel by granting them land that wasn’t theirs to give. I’m sure you will correct me on this point.

The US might have supported the partition but the State Department did not to provide the Jews with the means to defend themselves.

So, what your saying is, not only did the west (via the UN partition) essentially sanction, support, and legally justify the taking of Palestinian land, and the creation of the state of Israel on that land, but they should have supplied them with arms too? WTF?

Imagined scenarios and hypothticals do not hold up because Israel does not carry out suicide bombing missions despite the suicide bombers coming from the other side

You asked why there are no Jewish suicide bombers. The answer can only be a counterfactual: had the Jews been treated like the Palestinians have been, perhaps now there would be Jewish suicide bombers. Since the Jews have not had the precise history of the arabs/palestinians, we’ll never know for sure. It’s a thought experiment, a useful exercise, a counterfactual example. Historians do it all the time.

[/quote]

They didn’t move in as you said, as I mentioned before, that REGION was not just Arab. All this I established earlier with another poster.

What about the Israelis who were kicked out of Arab countries? This happened as well.

After Israel declared independence they were offically recognized by 52 governments at the League of Nations. Israel is the only democracy in that area as a result.

After you said the “WHole WOrld” supported them the fact that they weren’t supported. They defeated the arabs themselves. THe British supported the arabs though. SO the West should recognize the “Palestinians” who lost a war and tell Israel to give back land they won? This makes no sense.

Again you are saying HAD they been treated like “Palestinians”. This is again hypothitical. There is no argument. They in fact are being treated worse through suicide bombings, rockets, Hamas, etc. I repeat, suicide bombing is not part of Israeli culture or ideology. They don’t believe in virgins in heaven and they don’t believe in blowing up buses with children on it as noble.

The Holocaust happened and there was no retribution by Jewish people against ALL Germans in the name of ideology.

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[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
“how and why have they been radicalized?”

Good question. How came Hamas to be radicalized?

The answer lies in a sixth century man named Mohammed, who, while alive, slaughtered many Jews, including the harmless Jewish farmers at the Khaibar Oasis. His Jew-hatred and paranoia became enshrined as “enlightened” doctrine in the Koran, Hadith, and Sirah. Surah 1 of the Qur’an, for example, describes Jews as “those consigned to hell.”

Hamas is merely acting out its religious beliefs. [/quote]

Perhaps you are right. I have to say, though: if I suffered what the Palestinians have suffered - at least as I understand it, though I may be misinformed - I’d be pretty freakin’ radicalized too. And yet, I don’t follow Mohammed.

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[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
They didn’t move in as you said, as I mentioned before, that REGION was not just Arab. All this I established earlier with another poster.
[/quote]
So, what’s your point? Because there were both Jews & Arabs on that Godforsaken piece of land, it was therefore okay for the Jews to create a “Jewish state” and move the arabs out??

Once again, you are forgetting or ignoring or dismissing the injustice of the founding of a Jewish State on land that was not theirs. Yes, after that original injustice, both sides behaved abominably.

Right, for some reason, once again, Israel & the Jewish people have gotten - since WWII - favorable treatment on a colossal scale. Exactly.

So the West should sanction & give support to a people who drive out the inhabitants of a piece of land, and set up an illegal state on land not belonging to them? That makes no sense.

It may be hypothetical - but since the post WWII world wouldn’t dare to treat the Jews in this way, we’ll never know, will we?

Right - both sides are behaving abominably. One side - supported by billions of American aid, military hardware and know-how - kills and intimidates in a more “civilized” way (yes, those are sarcasm quotes.) The other side - having only rocks and simple explosives - has to kill in a more brutal way. Both sides commit absolute horrors.

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[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
They didn’t move in as you said, as I mentioned before, that REGION was not just Arab. All this I established earlier with another poster.

So, what’s your point? Because there were both Jews & Arabs on that Godforsaken piece of land, it was therefore okay for the Jews to create a “Jewish state” and move the arabs out??

What about the Israelis who were kicked out of Arab countries? This happened as well.

Once again, you are forgetting or ignoring or dismissing the injustice of the founding of a Jewish State on land that was not theirs. Yes, after that original injustice, both sides behaved abominably.

After Israel declared independence they were offically recognized by 52 states and League of Nations.

Right, for some reason, once again, Israel & the Jewish people have gotten - since WWII - favorable treatment on a colossal scale. Exactly.

SO the West should recognize the “Palestinians” who lost a war and tell Israel to give back land they won? This makes no sense.

So the West should sanction & give support to a people who drive out the inhabitants of a piece of land, and set up an illegal state on land not belonging to them? That makes no sense.

Again you are saying HAD they been treated like “Palestinians”. This is again hypothitical. There is no argument.

It may be hypothetical - but since the post WWII world wouldn’t dare to treat the Jews in this way, we’ll never know, will we?

They in fact are being treated worse through suicide bombings, rockets, Hamas, etc. I repeat, suicide bombing is not part of Israeli culture or ideology. They don’t believe in virgins in heaven and they don’t believe in blowing up buses with children on it as noble.

Right - both sides are behaving abominably. One side - supported by billions of American aid, military hardware and know-how - kills and intimidates in a more “civilized” way (yes, those are sarcasm quotes.) The other side - having only rocks and simple explosives - has to kill in a more brutal way. Both sides commit absolute horrors.

[/quote]

“Jewish state” in quotes does not apply my friend. What is the national language of “Palestinians”? Cuisine? Music? They are not a separate entity. They are ARAB! The Jews didn’t move them out. They moved themselves out because they thought the Arabs would defeat the Jews and they were told this by the locals. Despite losing the Israelis provided numerous opportunities to negotitate but the Arabs refused. PLus I repeat, other Arab governments refused to cooperate. DId the Jews who fled Poland and Germany ask the Germans for compensation? Nope. What about the Turkish refugees.

Not favorable, not the right word. When someone wins a war, they earned their right for independence. Again, as a result Israel is the only democracy in the area as a result. Can’ t say that for Iran, Syria, etc.

I thought you were against moral relativism. Now you say both sides commit absolute horrors? Very inconsistent. You can’t equate a state that continually negotitates and is willing to live side by side with an ideology who only wants to take over their state with a fifth column and wipe it off the map. Suicide bombers and a radical ideology, targeting innocent civilians, women and children is not comparable to Israel. Again, the Hebrews entered the land of Israel about 1300 BCE way before there were any “Palestinians”.

We will never know, but I know since the ideology does not call for suicide bombers or virgins in heaven. There is no argument.

So where should the ISraelis go according to you if they shouldn’t be in Israel?

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[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
So the West should sanction & give support to a people who drive out the inhabitants of a piece of land, and set up an illegal state on land not belonging to them? That [/quote]

Sounds like the way Western nations did it. Especially us, and the Native American.

67

[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
Ahh so you admit you don’ tk now much about Judaism, there we have it, but you sure claim to know a lot about “Palestinians”. Furthermore, Palestinians believe they are doing “somebody’s” work perhaps ALLAH through suicide bombing? HMMMMMMMMMM What is the Palestinian ideology? WHO told them they had to be there? Arafat? THe PLO? Again, answer the question. [/quote]

They were there.

That remains to be proven.

And besides, talking about millenia old events to defend the present oppression of a people is insane.

Most came from Europe. Some came from Brooklyn.

This ain’t no “SMALL sect”. The country is Zionist in nature. That’s what it was founded on.

In the sense that I was anti-SA in the Apartheid era, you bet you ass I am! The country is among the most discriminatory and openly racist around.

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[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
You are hiding your anti-semitism behind anti-Zionism. Just say you are anti-Israel and be done with it.
[/quote]

My sister married into a Jewish family about ten years ago. The father-in-law was a fascinating man who made his living by crafting harpsichords. When he was very young, he (not his family) escaped from Nazi Germany and spent many years playing for the Israeli orchestra. He was an intensely learned & a devout Jew. But even he was against the creation of Israel. Was he hiding anti-Jewish sentiments?

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[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
You are hiding your anti-semitism behind anti-Zionism. Just say you are anti-Israel and be done with it.

My sister married into a Jewish family about ten years ago. The father-in-law was a fascinating man who made his living by crafting harpsichords. When he was very young, he (not his family) escaped from Nazi Germany and spent many years playing for the Israeli orchestra. He was an intensely learned & a devout Jew. But even he was against the creation of Israel. Was he hiding anti-Jewish sentiments? [/quote]

You didn’t address the issue. I didn’t ask you about your sister or your father in law or a small sect of the Jewish poulation.

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[quote]Footsolider88 wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
You are hiding your anti-semitism behind anti-Zionism. Just say you are anti-Israel and be done with it.

My sister married into a Jewish family about ten years ago. The father-in-law was a fascinating man who made his living by crafting harpsichords. When he was very young, he (not his family) escaped from Nazi Germany and spent many years playing for the Israeli orchestra. He was an intensely learned & a devout Jew. But even he was against the creation of Israel. Was he hiding anti-Jewish sentiments?

You didn’t address the issue. I didn’t ask you about your sister or your father in law or a small sect of the Jewish poulation.

[/quote]

What do you mean? I don’t care what you asked me. I am simply registering my opposition to your equating (as you seem to be above) anti-zionism with anti-semitism.

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[quote]lixy wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
Ahh so you admit you don’ tk now much about Judaism, there we have it, but you sure claim to know a lot about “Palestinians”. Furthermore, Palestinians believe they are doing “somebody’s” work perhaps ALLAH through suicide bombing? HMMMMMMMMMM What is the Palestinian ideology? WHO told them they had to be there? Arafat? THe PLO? Again, answer the question.

They were there.

ANd please tell me the definition of ZIONISM. YOU are deflecting and deflecting.

Israel has to deal with the Palestians, a political movement who lost the war they waged. Israel declared independence after victory. They were in the MIddle East long before the political movement and the religion was established long before the “Palestinians”.

That remains to be proven.

And besides, talking about millenia old events to defend the present oppression of a people is insane.

THey didn’t come from Brooklyn as some idiots think.

Most came from Europe. Some came from Brooklyn.

And you are using a SMALL sect of a community as an example but they do believe in A JEWISH HOMELAND.

This ain’t no “SMALL sect”. The country is Zionist in nature. That’s what it was founded on.

Just say you are anti-Israel and be done with it.

In the sense that I was anti-SA in the Apartheid era, you bet you ass I am! The country is among the most discriminatory and openly racist around. [/quote]

I said your definition, not some anti semitic leaning website.

It has been proven, you just don’t accept it.

Not true. There was a Brooklyn in the Bible in 1300 BCE? Ha you kill me.

IT IS A SMALL SECT and they do BELIEVE IN A JEWISH Homeland.

ANd now we have it. So you were hiding behind anti-Israel and yet you still can’t write it. YOu dance around Apartheid. Just say you are ANTI-ISRAEL. But thanks for admitting it is a country. Actually a state but it’s ok I forgive you.

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[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Footsolider88 wrote:
You are hiding your anti-semitism behind anti-Zionism. Just say you are anti-Israel and be done with it.

My sister married into a Jewish family about ten years ago. The father-in-law was a fascinating man who made his living by crafting harpsichords. When he was very young, he (not his family) escaped from Nazi Germany and spent many years playing for the Israeli orchestra. He was an intensely learned & a devout Jew. But even he was against the creation of Israel. Was he hiding anti-Jewish sentiments?

You didn’t address the issue. I didn’t ask you about your sister or your father in law or a small sect of the Jewish poulation.

What do you mean? I don’t care what you asked me. I am simply registering my opposition to your equating (as you seem to be above) anti-zionism with anti-semitism. [/quote]

Again you didn’t address the issue. What is your defintion of Anti-zionism

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
So the West should sanction & give support to a people who drive out the inhabitants of a piece of land, and set up an illegal state on land not belonging to them? That

Sounds like the way Western nations did it. Especially us, and the Native American.[/quote]

Not just western nations. This seems to be the way most nations have been created.

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Since this has turned into an all you can link buffet.

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[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
So the West should sanction & give support to a people who drive out the inhabitants of a piece of land, and set up an illegal state on land not belonging to them? That

Sounds like the way Western nations did it. Especially us, and the Native American.

Not just western nations. This seems to be the way most nations have been created.[/quote]

Oh, no doubt.

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[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
“how and why have they been radicalized?”

Good question. How came Hamas to be radicalized?

The answer lies in a sixth century man named Mohammed, who, while alive, slaughtered many Jews, including the harmless Jewish farmers at the Khaibar Oasis. His Jew-hatred and paranoia became enshrined as “enlightened” doctrine in the Koran, Hadith, and Sirah. Surah 1 of the Qur’an, for example, describes Jews as “those consigned to hell.”

Hamas is merely acting out its religious beliefs.

Perhaps you are right. I have to say, though: if I suffered what the Palestinians have suffered - at least as I understand it, though I may be misinformed - I’d be pretty freakin’ radicalized too. And yet, I don’t follow Mohammed.
[/quote]

Some suffering is self-induced. If I launch a rocket at my neighbor or blow up his house and he retaliates (justly), I suffer what I deserve.

It reminds me of Mohammed’s “persecution.” His murder on the Arabian peninsula led to the Meccans ganging up against him and “persecuting” him.

Again, the length of Israel takes only 3 hours to drive. The fact that the Arabs are so obsessed with it is explainable only in terms of rank Jew-hatred, just like their prophet.

78

In my perpetual quest to understand the world around me, I enjoy looking up what every country is up to. I wasn’t particularly surprised to find this video in the top most viewed clips of this month in Israel. I thought some of you might be.

http://video.google.com/url?docid=-2595049084736890574&esrc=t100&ev=v&len=582&srcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D-2595049084736890574&vidurl=%2Fvideoplay%3Fdocid%3D-2595049084736890574%26hl%3Den&usg=AL29H212qA0T2q45WZTtKzNNRWyZGE5Z1g

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I would be in favor of supporting the Palestinians in regaining their lands if the Greeks got to reclaim their part of Cyprus, and Turkey, and India got to reclaim Pakistan and Bangladesh.

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Here is more stuff in response to the “other” linking propagandist from a NON ISRAELI source.

Pay attention to the end