[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]MentorSorg wrote:
Isn’t the Michelin Man a name applied to fatsos?
Westcoast has one of the most respectable physiques on here, and if I recall correctly, he’s still only in his early 20’s. [/quote]
I appreciate the compliment MS, more fuel to keep me working hard in the gym. I just turned 24 a couple months ago.[/quote]
i turned 24 20 years ago wtf . the only thing i like about paeloithic man was the way the men selected their women oh yea…
[quote]Destor wrote:
WestCoast7, I don’t suppose you know off hand which root tubers are best for muscle glycogen replenishment? Yams?
Right now my understanding is that Fructose can’t compare to Glucose in its ability to replenish muscle glycogen due to how it is metabolized, so I’m trying to ramp down my attempts at gaining mass with fruit and instead am trying to focus on carb loading with high glucose foods or starches preferably and I’m having a hard time finding any good info on the glucose/fructose/starch content in a lot of things.
Raisins have been my staple for carb loading over the past few weeks, and I’m thinking of resorting to white rice for the starch…[/quote]
If your going to eat tubers I’d go with yams or sweet potatoes. Another good source of carbs for any paleo or primal style eater is quinoa. If that’s not already in your diet, definitely read up on it and see if it would fit.
Quinoa is a staple in my diet on training days.
[quote]lia67 wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]MentorSorg wrote:
Isn’t the Michelin Man a name applied to fatsos?
Westcoast has one of the most respectable physiques on here, and if I recall correctly, he’s still only in his early 20’s. [/quote]
I appreciate the compliment MS, more fuel to keep me working hard in the gym. I just turned 24 a couple months ago.[/quote]
i turned 24 20 years ago wtf . the only thing i like about paeloithic man was the way the men selected their women oh yea…[/quote]
Do you want to lay that our for us? Maybe even with pictures?
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]lia67 wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]MentorSorg wrote:
Isn’t the Michelin Man a name applied to fatsos?
Westcoast has one of the most respectable physiques on here, and if I recall correctly, he’s still only in his early 20’s. [/quote]
I appreciate the compliment MS, more fuel to keep me working hard in the gym. I just turned 24 a couple months ago.[/quote]
i turned 24 20 years ago wtf . the only thing i like about paeloithic man was the way the men selected their women oh yea…[/quote]
Do you want to lay that our for us? Maybe even with pictures?
[/quote]
1 see woman you want , 2 grab her by the hair , 3 drag her back to the cave n root her , 4 sit around and wait for her to forage and cook some paelo brunch
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
[quote]gregron wrote:
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You DO NOT want to replenish your liver glycogen levels with ingested carbohydrates.
That would defeat the entire purpose of Paleo where you want to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose maintaining your blood sugar levels…[/quote]
so thats the “entire purpose of Paleo”? to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose? Hmmm I never knew that was the entire purpose of Paleo[/quote]
Eh, “entire point of Paleo” should be “most important metabolic distinction between modern diets and Paleo”. That would have been quite a bit longer to type, though.
[/quote]
i was just clarifying… didnt want to be misled into thinking “the entire purpose of paleo” would be defeated by replenishing my liver glycogen levels with ingested carbs.
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
WestCoast7, I don’t suppose you know off hand which root tubers are best for muscle glycogen replenishment? Yams?
Right now my understanding is that Fructose can’t compare to Glucose in its ability to replenish muscle glycogen due to how it is metabolized, so I’m trying to ramp down my attempts at gaining mass with fruit and instead am trying to focus on carb loading with high glucose foods or starches preferably and I’m having a hard time finding any good info on the glucose/fructose/starch content in a lot of things.
Raisins have been my staple for carb loading over the past few weeks, and I’m thinking of resorting to white rice for the starch…[/quote]
If your going to eat tubers I’d go with yams or sweet potatoes. Another good source of carbs for any paleo or primal style eater is quinoa. If that’s not already in your diet, definitely read up on it and see if it would fit.
Quinoa is a staple in my diet on training days.
[/quote]
Quinoa is almost like a grain though isn’t it?
I’m basically just trying to limit the potential bad stuff while still getting good glycogen replenishment without getting a shitton of fructose. White rice seems mostly benign, not a lot of antinutrients though it could still have unforseen bad effects. Time to do some research.
[quote]Destor wrote:
Quinoa is almost like a grain though isn’t it?
I’m basically just trying to limit the potential bad stuff while still getting good glycogen replenishment without getting a shitton of fructose. White rice seems mostly benign, not a lot of antinutrients though it could still have unforseen bad effects. Time to do some research.[/quote]
Quinoa is really almost like a grain. It’s not technically a grain, but it acts just like one: high carb, must be cooked, anti-nutrients, exe.
Brown rice is better than white. If you’re looking to replace muscle glycogen (so starchy carbs) while staying paleo or almost paleo I’d go with brown rice, sweet potatoes and even better, real yams if you can find them.
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
I’m not backpedaling you moron.
You DO NOT want to replenish your liver glycogen levels with ingested carbohydrates.
That would defeat the entire purpose of Paleo where you want to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose maintaining your blood sugar levels. The only reason you are periodically ingesting carbohydrates is to take advantage of the increased insulin sensitivity in the training window to avoid replenishing your non-SM stores of glycogen. There is obviously no analog for glut-4 insulin triggered trans-location for fructose, so EVERY gram of fructose you ingest diminishes this intended effect.
Also…
Your article reference is completely backwards in this sense.
If intermittent hypoglycemia happens in the period immediately after training, you’ve timed it correctly. Assuming you’re eating an ample amount of balanced fats, and you have an otherwise healthy liver and lipoprotein concentration you will recover quickly with new glucose.
Obviously your body will prioritize liver glycogen stores over SM stores. The point is YOU don’t.[/quote]
What the fuck are you even talking about?
The point is, barring obscene intakes of fructose in the absence of glucose, it doesn’t really matter.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
I’m not backpedaling you moron.
You DO NOT want to replenish your liver glycogen levels with ingested carbohydrates.
That would defeat the entire purpose of Paleo where you want to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose maintaining your blood sugar levels. The only reason you are periodically ingesting carbohydrates is to take advantage of the increased insulin sensitivity in the training window to avoid replenishing your non-SM stores of glycogen. There is obviously no analog for glut-4 insulin triggered trans-location for fructose, so EVERY gram of fructose you ingest diminishes this intended effect.
Also…
Your article reference is completely backwards in this sense.
If intermittent hypoglycemia happens in the period immediately after training, you’ve timed it correctly. Assuming you’re eating an ample amount of balanced fats, and you have an otherwise healthy liver and lipoprotein concentration you will recover quickly with new glucose.
Obviously your body will prioritize liver glycogen stores over SM stores. The point is YOU don’t.[/quote]
What the fuck are you even talking about?
The point is, barring obscene intakes of fructose in the absence of glucose, it doesn’t really matter.[/quote]
It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about at this point.
Gluconeogenesis uses PRIMARILY fatty acids(with odd carbon number chains) and ONLY GLUCOGENIC amino acids. It does this EVEN WITH DEPLETED LIVER GLYCOGEN because gluconeogenesis and glycolysis can NEVER occur simultaneously. In the absence of insulin glycogen replenishment in the liver doesn’t occur and since the release(first phase pulse magnitude) of insulin is proportionate to the CHANGE in serum glucose levels, you can in fact build up a substantial amount of circulating glucose without a large release of insulin in the pre-workout period. That SERUM glucose, although not entirely, can be PREFERENTIALLY shuttled to insulin sensitive tissue(namely: skeletal muscle).
Further, any fructose consumed exceeding the replenishment of liver glycogen is used to metabolize triglycerides in the liver and therefore increase VLDL synthesis. Elevated VLDL results in lower HDL and elevated transport of triglycerides away from the liver(where they could have otherwise been used in gluconeogenesis) as well as elevated serum LDL-cholesterol levels.
But you’re not even aware that fatty acids can be used in the formation of new glucose, so i might as well be explaining calculus to a grade-schooler.
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]Destor wrote:
Quinoa is almost like a grain though isn’t it?
I’m basically just trying to limit the potential bad stuff while still getting good glycogen replenishment without getting a shitton of fructose. White rice seems mostly benign, not a lot of antinutrients though it could still have unforseen bad effects. Time to do some research.[/quote]
Quinoa is really almost like a grain. It’s not technically a grain, but it acts just like one: high carb, must be cooked, anti-nutrients, exe.
Brown rice is better than white. If you’re looking to replace muscle glycogen (so starchy carbs) while staying paleo or almost paleo I’d go with brown rice, sweet potatoes and even better, real yams if you can find them. [/quote]
Wrong. Quinoa is a vegetable seed.
Brown rice also contains a large amount of phytic acid, more so than quinoa.
You also failed to note that white rice does not contain any phytic acid, thus making it superior to brown rice in some respects.
Learn before you teach.
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
We need to put out the ID spotlight to attract Iron Dwarf and his awesome skillz.[/quote]
Yo IronDwarf. Where ya at?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
First off, thanks as always for your intelligent input. Perhaps, what you speak of in the quote above is the causative factor that acts on the life enhancement gene (the one turned on by starvation method, and resveratrol/ and/or poanthrocyanodins from red wine).
…well, rezveratrol acts through increasing deacetylation rate, perhaps fructose works against Rez-V.
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
Learn before you teach.[/quote]
Word up
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
It’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about at this point.
Gluconeogenesis uses PRIMARILY fatty acids(with odd carbon number chains) and ONLY GLUCOGENIC amino acids. It does this EVEN WITH DEPLETED LIVER GLYCOGEN because gluconeogenesis and glycolysis can NEVER occur simultaneously. In the absence of insulin glycogen replenishment in the liver doesn’t occur and since the release(first phase pulse magnitude) of insulin is proportionate to the CHANGE in serum glucose levels, you can in fact build up a substantial amount of circulating glucose without a large release of insulin in the pre-workout period. That SERUM glucose, although not entirely, can be PREFERENTIALLY shuttled to insulin sensitive tissue(namely: skeletal muscle).
Further, any fructose consumed exceeding the replenishment of liver glycogen is used to metabolize triglycerides in the liver and therefore increase VLDL synthesis. Elevated VLDL results in lower HDL and elevated transport of triglycerides away from the liver(where they could have otherwise been used in gluconeogenesis) as well as elevated serum LDL-cholesterol levels.
But you’re not even aware that fatty acids can be used in the formation of new glucose, so i might as well be explaining calculus to a grade-schooler.[/quote]
Point by point, again:
-Show me a single reference that demonstrates that FFA are a primary source for GNG. I’ll save you some time: you can’t. Sure, glycerol can eventually become glucose via propionyl CoA>>succinyl CoA>>pyruvate, BUT it is far from the primary source for GNG as you’re claiming. Maybe you should re-read that wikipedia article before you claim supreme google-smarts.
-Glycolysis and gluconeogenesis don’t occur simultaneously to significant degrees IN THE SAME CELLS. Of course, this is totally irrelevant since GNG wasn’t a part of our initial discussion.
-Glycogen replenishment can occur in the liver in the absence of insulin. See: fructose.
-Blood glucose levels are not the only signal for insulin secretion. Signaling begins in the gut.
-Insulin secretion can peak within 10 minutes of ingestion, so your “preworkout period” is cut down to a matter of minutes.
-Scare tactics and misinformed horseshit. The liver holds between 50 and 100g of glycogen. In the context of your original post (fruit consumption pre workout by otherwise low-carb individuals), the 6 or so grams of total fructose in an apple or banana isn’t going to contribute to VLDL synthesis. Not to mention that I’ve already posted studies that show that small amounts of fructose ingested pre workout are beneficial.
This is dumb and I’m through arguing with someone who honestly believes that free fatty acids are the primary source for GNG. If this were the case, you would essentially have to PSMF in order to reach ketosis.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
First off, thanks as always for your intelligent input. Perhaps, what you speak of in the quote above is the causative factor that acts on the life enhancement gene (the one turned on by starvation method, and resveratrol/ and/or poanthrocyanodins from red wine).
[/quote]
To be perfectly honest, I don’t know, haha. I’m not well read in that area
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
We need to put out the ID spotlight to attract Iron Dwarf and his awesome skillz.[/quote]
Yo IronDwarf. Where ya at?[/quote]
I might have to PM the talented man.
BPT, are you eating fully paleo now as well? or a hybrid approach? I thought I said it before, but the transformation in your avatar is pretty epic.
If others would simply follow suit, fully dedicate themselves to diet and training, and stop asking absurd questions, the progress around here would be infinitely better.
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
We need to put out the ID spotlight to attract Iron Dwarf and his awesome skillz.[/quote]
Yo IronDwarf. Where ya at?[/quote]
I might have to PM the talented man.
BPT, are you eating fully paleo now as well? or a hybrid approach? I thought I said it before, but the transformation in your avatar is pretty epic.
If others would simply follow suit, fully dedicate themselves to diet and training, and stop asking absurd questions, the progress around here would be infinitely better.[/quote]
Truth.
Thanks for the compliment.
Let me say that I eat the way I do because of gastro disturbances that have lead to various malabsorption problems – which is a VERY bad thing for anabolism. I’ve notices that the changes have given me more overall energy and clarity and my digestion is much improved. I wouldn’t bastardize the term and call my current plan paleo.
I’ll give you a few specifics: I’m gluten free which is very tough – I entirely limit gluten and almost all grains, including beer, weeps (gin for the win). I do eat white rice and potatoes. I limit fructose for physique purposes. I find that eating low fructose enables me to be less careful with calories. Maybe I’ll start a new log when work slows down.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
We need to put out the ID spotlight to attract Iron Dwarf and his awesome skillz.[/quote]
Yo IronDwarf. Where ya at?[/quote]
I might have to PM the talented man.
BPT, are you eating fully paleo now as well? or a hybrid approach? I thought I said it before, but the transformation in your avatar is pretty epic.
If others would simply follow suit, fully dedicate themselves to diet and training, and stop asking absurd questions, the progress around here would be infinitely better.[/quote]
Truth.
Thanks for the compliment.
Let me say that I eat the way I do because of gastro disturbances that have lead to various malabsorption problems – which is a VERY bad thing for anabolism. I’ve notices that the changes have given me more overall energy and clarity and my digestion is much improved. I wouldn’t bastardize the term and call my current plan paleo.
I’ll give you a few specifics: I’m gluten free which is very tough – I entirely limit gluten and almost all grains, including beer, weeps (gin for the win). I do eat white rice and potatoes. I limit fructose for physique purposes. I find that eating low fructose enables me to be less careful with calories. Maybe I’ll start a new log when work slows down.[/quote]
I’m the same way, maybe even stricter, but not because of any problems that were caused previously. I just want to live as long as possible and feel as good as I can.
No gluten, no wheat, no grains, no sugar, no alcohol, no vegetable oils and no processed foods. It was hard initially, but I feel so good now that I wouldn’t have it any other way.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
This is dumb and I’m through arguing with someone who honestly believes that free fatty acids are the primary source for GNG.[/quote]
Yeah, gluconeogensis is only going to be able to build glucose from the glycerol in fat, (which is minor in proportion of energy compared to the fatty acids) and I thought I saw somewhere that it amounts to maybe 10% of circulating blood glucose. Pretty trivial.