Macronutrient Ratios for PALEO

[TooHuman]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You don’t need any carbohydrates(except fiber) to survive and function normally.
You don’t need any carbohydrates except glucose to replenish muscle glycogen.
Eating fructose with glucose will delay the replenishment of muscle glycogen.
So even though it’s not Paleo, grains and yams are the most effective way to replenish muscle glycogen if taken before you spike your insulin levels during training.

As long as you eat a shit ton of meats, veggies/berries, and balanced fats/oils you will keep your diet from being heavily acidic.
Also…Theres no reason to eat carbohydrates(besides fiber) beyond replenishing the AT MOST 400-500 grams you can hold in your skeletal muscle.

Fruits have a significant amount of sugars in them sop they’re not as effective as veggies/berries for low carb micronutrient and fiber sources. They also have a significant amount of fructose so they’re not as effective as grains for building up your blood glucose levels before training.
Conclusion:
There’s no reason to eat fruits either for Paleo purposes or for non-paleo bodybuilding purposes because ther are better alternatives.[/quote]

LOL at all of this. With the exception of maybe 2 points, it’s all wrong.

• Just because it’s not NEEDED, doesn’t mean it’s not BENEFICIAL. There’s a reason why people invariably perform better on a diet with carbohydrates vs. a carbohydrate free diet.
• Consuming some fructose with glucose may lead to faster glycogen replenishment than consuming either alone, and at least presents no significant disadvantage
  Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on glycogen resynthesis in human liver and skeletal muscle, measured by (13)C MRS - PubMed
  Effect of different post-exercise sugar diets on the rate of... : Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise
• Not that it particularly matters, but “eating a shit ton of meat” isn’t going to positively impact acidity.
• 500g of glycogen? The body holds up to 15g/kg. How much glycogen you actually need to replenish depends largely on how you’ve been training and dieting, but 500g TOPS? Please.

Sounds like you’ve been drinking the kool aid.[/quote]

I give you an ‘F’ at reading comprehension.
You were just taking past my points and your articles are unrelated to the effects of pre-workout glucose/fructose consumption on SKELETAL MUSCLE glycogen replenishment.

[Stronghold]

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You don’t need any carbohydrates(except fiber) to survive and function normally.
You don’t need any carbohydrates except glucose to replenish muscle glycogen.
Eating fructose with glucose will delay the replenishment of muscle glycogen.
So even though it’s not Paleo, grains and yams are the most effective way to replenish muscle glycogen if taken before you spike your insulin levels during training.

As long as you eat a shit ton of meats, veggies/berries, and balanced fats/oils you will keep your diet from being heavily acidic.
Also…Theres no reason to eat carbohydrates(besides fiber) beyond replenishing the AT MOST 400-500 grams you can hold in your skeletal muscle.

Fruits have a significant amount of sugars in them sop they’re not as effective as veggies/berries for low carb micronutrient and fiber sources. They also have a significant amount of fructose so they’re not as effective as grains for building up your blood glucose levels before training.
Conclusion:
There’s no reason to eat fruits either for Paleo purposes or for non-paleo bodybuilding purposes because ther are better alternatives.[/quote]

LOL at all of this. With the exception of maybe 2 points, it’s all wrong.

• Just because it’s not NEEDED, doesn’t mean it’s not BENEFICIAL. There’s a reason why people invariably perform better on a diet with carbohydrates vs. a carbohydrate free diet.
• Consuming some fructose with glucose may lead to faster glycogen replenishment than consuming either alone, and at least presents no significant disadvantage
  Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on glycogen resynthesis in human liver and skeletal muscle, measured by (13)C MRS - PubMed
  http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/abstract/1987/10000/effect_of_different_post_exercise_sugar_diets_on.12.aspx
• Not that it particularly matters, but “eating a shit ton of meat” isn’t going to positively impact acidity.
• 500g of glycogen? The body holds up to 15g/kg. How much glycogen you actually need to replenish depends largely on how you’ve been training and dieting, but 500g TOPS? Please.

Sounds like you’ve been drinking the kool aid.[/quote]

I give you an ‘F’ at reading comprehension.
You were just taking past my points and your articles are unrelated to the effects of pre-workout glucose/fructose consumption on SKELETAL MUSCLE glycogen replenishment.
[/quote]

I give you an “F” at science and a “D” at backpedaling.

You do realize that the body cares about overall glycogen replenishment far more than skeletal muscle glycogen alone, right? Liver glycogen stores take precedence over muscle glycogen. Since there is “no reason to eat carbohydrates besides for replenishing the 500g TOPS in skeletal muscle”, I’m assuming you don’t think replenishing the liver, which is the primary source of glucose for your organs is important.

The effects of preworkout fructose being no intermittent hypoglycemia as compared to glucose ingestion? Sounds positive to me.

Effect of fructose ingestion on muscle glycogen usage during exercise - PubMed

[gregron]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
I give you an “F” at science and a “D” at backpedaling.

You do realize that the body cares about overall glycogen replenishment far more than skeletal muscle glycogen alone, right? Liver glycogen stores take precedence over muscle glycogen. Since there is “no reason to eat carbohydrates besides for replenishing the 500g TOPS in skeletal muscle”, I’m assuming you don’t think replenishing the liver, which is the primary source of glucose for your organs is important.

The effects of preworkout fructose being no intermittent hypoglycemia as compared to glucose ingestion? Sounds positive to me.

Effect of fructose ingestion on muscle glycogen usage during exercise - PubMed

BOOM Roasted!

[gregron]

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
I think we should instead focus on what gregron mentioned and vote on my new nickname:

Marshmallow Man or Michelinen Man

Then once we’ve decided on that, we should see what Iron Dwarf can whip up![/quote]

hmmmm I think Michelin man sounds cooler but is way harder to spell. The Stay Puft marshmallow man has that sweet british/aussie sailor look going on and thats a HUGE plus but his build is a little more bulbous… Tire guy also has a pretty bad ass scarf? Decisions decisions

[batman730]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
I think we should instead focus on what gregron mentioned and vote on my new nickname:

Marshmallow Man or Michelinen Man

Then once we’ve decided on that, we should see what Iron Dwarf can whip up![/quote]

hmmmm I think Michelin man sounds cooler but is way harder to spell. The Stay Puft marshmallow man has that sweet british/aussie sailor look going on and thats a HUGE plus but his build is a little more bulbous… Tire guy also has a pretty bad ass scarf? Decisions decisions[/quote]

Don’t forget about the whole “Destroying The City” thing Stay Puft has goin’ on, which is way more bad ass than any scarf, seriously. However I concede that Michelin Man probably sounds cooler and is generally way more jacked in the above photos. I guess Destroying The City is more of a “functional strength” kind of thing anyway.

[blackhand]

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
Conclusion:
There’s no reason to eat fruits either for Paleo purposes or for non-paleo bodybuilding purposes because ther are better alternatives.[/quote]
But, they are yummy.

And I know both personally and with clients eating a paleo-style diet (due to food sensitivities) giving them the fruit option keeps the fat fingers out of the cookie jar.

[blackhand]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
I think we should instead focus on what gregron mentioned and vote on my new nickname:

Marshmallow Man or Michelinen Man

Then once we’ve decided on that, we should see what Iron Dwarf can whip up![/quote]

hmmmm I think Michelin man sounds cooler but is way harder to spell. The Stay Puft marshmallow man has that sweet british/aussie sailor look going on and thats a HUGE plus but his build is a little more bulbous… Tire guy also has a pretty bad ass scarf? Decisions decisions[/quote]
Look at Stay Puft’s eyes. Definitely tiger blood running through those veins. He’d grab the Michelin Man’s scarf and choke him out, jacked or not.

Combination of the eye of the tiger and bloat = Stay Puft FTW.

[TooHuman]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You don’t need any carbohydrates(except fiber) to survive and function normally.
You don’t need any carbohydrates except glucose to replenish muscle glycogen.
Eating fructose with glucose will delay the replenishment of muscle glycogen.
So even though it’s not Paleo, grains and yams are the most effective way to replenish muscle glycogen if taken before you spike your insulin levels during training.

As long as you eat a shit ton of meats, veggies/berries, and balanced fats/oils you will keep your diet from being heavily acidic.
Also…Theres no reason to eat carbohydrates(besides fiber) beyond replenishing the AT MOST 400-500 grams you can hold in your skeletal muscle.

Fruits have a significant amount of sugars in them sop they’re not as effective as veggies/berries for low carb micronutrient and fiber sources. They also have a significant amount of fructose so they’re not as effective as grains for building up your blood glucose levels before training.
Conclusion:
There’s no reason to eat fruits either for Paleo purposes or for non-paleo bodybuilding purposes because ther are better alternatives.[/quote]

LOL at all of this. With the exception of maybe 2 points, it’s all wrong.

• Just because it’s not NEEDED, doesn’t mean it’s not BENEFICIAL. There’s a reason why people invariably perform better on a diet with carbohydrates vs. a carbohydrate free diet.
• Consuming some fructose with glucose may lead to faster glycogen replenishment than consuming either alone, and at least presents no significant disadvantage
  Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on glycogen resynthesis in human liver and skeletal muscle, measured by (13)C MRS - PubMed
  Effect of different post-exercise sugar diets on the rate of... : Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise
• Not that it particularly matters, but “eating a shit ton of meat” isn’t going to positively impact acidity.
• 500g of glycogen? The body holds up to 15g/kg. How much glycogen you actually need to replenish depends largely on how you’ve been training and dieting, but 500g TOPS? Please.

Sounds like you’ve been drinking the kool aid.[/quote]

I give you an ‘F’ at reading comprehension.
You were just taking past my points and your articles are unrelated to the effects of pre-workout glucose/fructose consumption on SKELETAL MUSCLE glycogen replenishment.
[/quote]

I give you an “F” at science and a “D” at backpedaling.

You do realize that the body cares about overall glycogen replenishment far more than skeletal muscle glycogen alone, right? Liver glycogen stores take precedence over muscle glycogen. Since there is “no reason to eat carbohydrates besides for replenishing the 500g TOPS in skeletal muscle”, I’m assuming you don’t think replenishing the liver, which is the primary source of glucose for your organs is important.

The effects of preworkout fructose being no intermittent hypoglycemia as compared to glucose ingestion? Sounds positive to me.

Effect of fructose ingestion on muscle glycogen usage during exercise - PubMed

I’m not backpedaling you moron.
You DO NOT want to replenish your liver glycogen levels with ingested carbohydrates.
That would defeat the entire purpose of Paleo where you want to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose maintaining your blood sugar levels. The only reason you are periodically ingesting carbohydrates is to take advantage of the increased insulin sensitivity in the training window to avoid replenishing your non-SM stores of glycogen. There is obviously no analog for glut-4 insulin triggered trans-location for fructose, so EVERY gram of fructose you ingest diminishes this intended effect.

Also…
Your article reference is completely backwards in this sense.
If intermittent hypoglycemia happens in the period immediately after training, you’ve timed it correctly. Assuming you’re eating an ample amount of balanced fats, and you have an otherwise healthy liver and lipoprotein concentration you will recover quickly with new glucose.
Obviously your body will prioritize liver glycogen stores over SM stores. The point is YOU don’t.

[gregron]

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You DO NOT want to replenish your liver glycogen levels with ingested carbohydrates.
That would defeat the entire purpose of Paleo where you want to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose maintaining your blood sugar levels…[/quote]

so thats the “entire purpose of Paleo”? to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose? Hmmm I never knew that was the entire purpose of Paleo

[TooHuman]

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You DO NOT want to replenish your liver glycogen levels with ingested carbohydrates.
That would defeat the entire purpose of Paleo where you want to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose maintaining your blood sugar levels…[/quote]

so thats the “entire purpose of Paleo”? to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose? Hmmm I never knew that was the entire purpose of Paleo[/quote]

Eh, “entire point of Paleo” should be “most important metabolic distinction between modern diets and Paleo”. That would have been quite a bit longer to type, though.

[BulletproofTiger]

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You DO NOT want to replenish your liver glycogen levels with ingested carbohydrates.
That would defeat the entire purpose of Paleo where you want to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose maintaining your blood sugar levels…[/quote]

so thats the “entire purpose of Paleo”? to shift the transport equilibrium of FFA’s to form NEW glucose? Hmmm I never knew that was the entire purpose of Paleo[/quote]

Eh, “entire point of Paleo” should be “most important metabolic distinction between modern diets and Paleo”. That would have been quite a bit longer to type, though.
[/quote]
Food fight! Throws orange.

edit: Actually TooHuman, if you wouldn’t mind, I’d like to hear your thoughts on nutrition/periworkout nutrition. Obviously Paleo limits certain foods, but since we’re on the topic of “Macronutrient Ratios for PALEO” please elaborate a bit more on the ratios (40/30/30, etc) in general that you follow and the food choices you choose to get there. Do you limit fructose to under a certain amount daily? Glucose? Starches? Protein per pound of lean mass, fat sources, etc.

Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

[WestCoast7]

[quote]blackhand wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
I think we should instead focus on what gregron mentioned and vote on my new nickname:

Marshmallow Man or Michelinen Man

Then once we’ve decided on that, we should see what Iron Dwarf can whip up![/quote]

hmmmm I think Michelin man sounds cooler but is way harder to spell. The Stay Puft marshmallow man has that sweet british/aussie sailor look going on and thats a HUGE plus but his build is a little more bulbous… Tire guy also has a pretty bad ass scarf? Decisions decisions[/quote]
Look at Stay Puft’s eyes. Definitely tiger blood running through those veins. He’d grab the Michelin Man’s scarf and choke him out, jacked or not.

Combination of the eye of the tiger and bloat = Stay Puft FTW.
[/quote]

Hahahahaha, I was out of town for business and hadn’t check this thread in a while. I definitely just sprayed water everywhere after reading this and laughing out loud. Love it.

Stay Puft does sound and look way cooler. I think that takes my vote as well.

I love this community, so much brilliance. Except for the OP.

[WestCoast7]

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I guess Destroying The City is more of a “functional strength” kind of thing anyway.[/quote]

QFT.

Now we’ll have to see if ID will whip something up.

[Dre_the_Hatchet]

[quote]PersonMan wrote:
I just like to train the neck and traps alot. I’m not too into vanity. All this hypertension aside(probably related to excess blood sugar)what carbs would you recommend? I sure don’t like hypertension and as to having a bloated gut that I will also pass(I keep my waist thick through training–again, aesthetics are one thing, functionality is another). Turnips anyone(haha)?[/quote]

[Dre_the_Hatchet]

This is the mugshot of an actual rapist.

[WestCoast7]

[quote]Dre the Hatchet wrote:
This is the mugshot of an actual rapist.[/quote]

OP’s father?

[WestCoast7]

We need to put out the ID spotlight to attract Iron Dwarf and his awesome skillz.

[batman730]

If we can’t find a spotlight maybe we can get him one of those nifty flashing red phones.

[WestCoast7]

[quote]batman730 wrote:
If we can’t find a spotlight maybe we can get him one of those nifty flashing red phones.[/quote]

Solid Plan B.

[Destor]

WestCoast7, I don’t suppose you know off hand which root tubers are best for muscle glycogen replenishment? Yams?

Right now my understanding is that Fructose can’t compare to Glucose in its ability to replenish muscle glycogen due to how it is metabolized, so I’m trying to ramp down my attempts at gaining mass with fruit and instead am trying to focus on carb loading with high glucose foods or starches preferably and I’m having a hard time finding any good info on the glucose/fructose/starch content in a lot of things.

Raisins have been my staple for carb loading over the past few weeks, and I’m thinking of resorting to white rice for the starch…