[quote]therajraj wrote:
it appears as though the religion itself deserves credit for the scientific method (ReligiON)?
[/quote]
It does, without Robert Grosseteste, the Bishop of Lincoln, to translate Aristotle–we wouldn’t have had the modern scientific method as early as we did. Yeah, maybe someone could have done it later, but the fact is that the a Bishop was the one that put it out there.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
The inventors of formal geometry were polytheists… does that mean polytheism caused the invention of formal geometry, or even more absurdly, that ONLY polytheists could invent it?[/quote]
You understand the difference between develop and invent? My meme does not say invent.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,
As a retired person I can afford to do this all day, your “business” must be very demanding for you to be this involved in an internet war of words. Pretty much everything you said is nonsense, you are consistently wrong and I’m pretty sure someone else at the library would like you to get off the computer so that they can now surf for porn.[/quote]
You say that my comments are “nonsense” yet I’ve challenged you in the past to be specific and all I hear is the chirping of crickets, or yet one more personal attack based on nothing. Whereas I just pointed out to you SPECIFICALLY how you did in fact put down the public school system. And YOU did in fact put your children in private school after your comparison. Those were YOUR words in YOUR post! And, along with your other positions, makes you a hypocrite.
From your ad hominem attacks, which you spoke out against only days ago, to your fake Catholicism, and now to you turning your back on public schools in favor of where the rich send their children - You’re a fraud!
And people like you regardless of political persuasion MAKE ME SICK!
So, suck it up Bub if you’re going to hang around here (and I hope you do) you’ll be hearing a lot more from me.
ZEB,
I have no use for you, I tried being civil but you are apparently unable to function that way, please feel free to continue to fuck off. I have explained everything I do, you have decided to continue to ask for answers and explanations, I have decided to respond with “go fuck yourself.” I am as civil as I am allowed/encouraged to be, you would not know civil discourse if it bit you in the ass. so with that…
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,
I have no use for you,[/quote]
Sure you do B r i an, you have plenty to learn.
Probably should not have said that B r i a n. Your ad hominem attacks are now pretty famous around here. Is there a name that you have not called me yet? Um…I don’t think so.
I have plenty of civil discourse with those on the left. But you are indeed different, you’ve put yourself on a whole new level as I’ve already explained. You babble on with tired out liberal phrases from the 90’s and when you’re called out on them you respond with “fuck yourself, or shut up idiot.” Very mature and enlightened of you. Perhaps you are more typical of the left than I originally gave you credit for. They are full of empty platitudes that when challenged fall apart. Just like your many arguments on every thread you’ve injected your silly half thought out opinions on.
Yet, it’s not your shallow minded liberalism that matters to me, not really. As I explained you are a hypocrite as well. And that’s something that needs quite a bit more attention paid to it. When I’ve pointed out your double standards several times you responded with gems like “fuck you zeb…you’re dumb…and stupid…”
Oh well B r i a n…I have more but I can save it for later. We have plenty of time don’t we? Now run along kiss your picture of Obama good night and thank God that you don’t have to send your kids to AHHHHHHHH–A public school.
ZEB,
I have only heard “shut up idiot” from you and my 7 year old when he is well and truly pissed at his sister, we don’t have to debate how this started (it was you) now continue fucking off, I’m getting some sleep.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,
I have only heard “shut up idiot” from you and my 7 year old when he is well and truly pissed at his sister, we don’t have to debate how this started (it was you) now continue fucking off, I’m getting some sleep.[/quote]
I hope you slept well B r i a n. Did you dream of Obama being reelected and the government growing even larger? That is every lefty’s dream isn’t it? “Please take more of our money you spend it so much better than we could.”
LOL M O R N I N I N G!!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,
I have only heard “shut up idiot” from you and my 7 year old when he is well and truly pissed at his sister, we don’t have to debate how this started (it was you) now continue fucking off, I’m getting some sleep.[/quote]
I hope you slept well B r i a n. Did you dream of Obama being reelected and the government growing even larger? That is every lefty’s dream isn’t it? “Please take more of our money you spend it so much better than we could.”
LOL M O R N I N I N G!![/quote]
I dream of the state growing larger and larger every day, subsuming entrepreneurship between red tape and ethnic diversity affirmation action forms. Lolamidoingitrite
[quote]Bambi wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,
I have only heard “shut up idiot” from you and my 7 year old when he is well and truly pissed at his sister, we don’t have to debate how this started (it was you) now continue fucking off, I’m getting some sleep.[/quote]
I hope you slept well B r i a n. Did you dream of Obama being reelected and the government growing even larger? That is every lefty’s dream isn’t it? “Please take more of our money you spend it so much better than we could.”
LOL M O R N I N I N G!![/quote]
I dream of the state growing larger and larger every day, subsuming entrepreneurship between red tape and ethnic diversity affirmation action forms. Lolamidoingitrite[/quote]
How far along are you folks in Scotland?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
The inventors of formal geometry were polytheists… does that mean polytheism caused the invention of formal geometry, or even more absurdly, that ONLY polytheists could invent it?[/quote]
You understand the difference between develop and invent? My meme does not say invent.[/quote]
You don’t seem to understand. No single person or group invented the scientific method. It was developed over thousands of years, across several different societies by several different people belonging to several different religions.
99% of the heavy lifting was already done before 1170 ACE. Your pic is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.
I can’t believe that this discussion turned into a political/religious rant that has nothing to do with the OP…wow.
I’m not an expert in this by any means and my son is only in preschool so I’m not necessarily hip on all of the realities of the public school system. To me this seems like we are just shuffling the problem around instead of actually addressing the problem with our school system. We all pay for schools so we should have the expectation of at least a mediocre education for our kids. We shouldn’t have to send them to private school.
My wife and I are really lucky to be able to afford private school for our son. It’s a Presbyterian school right downtown and we like most things about it (at least for his age). Neither my wife or I are religious by any means but that wasn’t a prerequisite for enrollment. But it’s not cheap and tuition is only part of our expense. There’s charity events, uniforms, extra costs for other courses, etc.
Not to mention that he’s in private speech therapy (at our local college) which also adds to our expense. We also give extra to the school. But if the school were to suddenly have to take on a lot of extra students with parents who aren’t as fortunate as my wife and I and couldn’t afford the extras then the school would be in financial difilculty and the kids wouldn’t get as good of an education.
The voucher is a nice thought but it’s not going to cover all of the expenses that are associated with this. You’ll also find that most parents tend to be pretty engaged and volunteer extra. Do you lose that if the education becomes “free”?
I think the problem with our schools stems partially from a lack of involvement. Most parents don’t spend enough time with their kids and don’t get involved enough with their schools. And by involved I don’t mean just telling the teachers what to do but actually taking the time to do homework with their kids, volunterring at thier school, etc.
But, most people work long hours and most families that I know have two working parents. I’m lucky enough to be able to work whenever so I can take time off during the day and then make up for that time at night. But not everyone can do that.
I completely agree with DrMatt regarding standardization. We did a lot of research on schools to see what they were teaching, how much physical activity they were given, etc. But it’s a crap shoot and if you don’t have the time to do the reading then you might make the wrong call and send them to the wrong school.
And wrong is really an individual thing. Not every kid is the same or requires the same environment. But there needs to be some sort of standard that they are taught to.
I definitely don’t believe in the “competition is better” argument when it comes to schools. It’s a nice thought but this is our future we’re talking about and that gets more complicated than some simple catch phrase.
james
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
The inventors of formal geometry were polytheists… does that mean polytheism caused the invention of formal geometry, or even more absurdly, that ONLY polytheists could invent it?[/quote]
You understand the difference between develop and invent? My meme does not say invent.[/quote]
You don’t seem to understand. No single person or group invented the scientific method. It was developed over thousands of years, across several different societies by several different people belonging to several different religions.
99% of the heavy lifting was already done before 1170 ACE. Your pic is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.
[/quote]
So you are admitting that without the church it wouldn’t have happened? Since the church is what made the work by numerous people possible.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
The inventors of formal geometry were polytheists… does that mean polytheism caused the invention of formal geometry, or even more absurdly, that ONLY polytheists could invent it?[/quote]
You understand the difference between develop and invent? My meme does not say invent.[/quote]
You don’t seem to understand. No single person or group invented the scientific method. It was developed over thousands of years, across several different societies by several different people belonging to several different religions.
99% of the heavy lifting was already done before 1170 ACE. Your pic is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.
[/quote]
So you are admitting that without the church it wouldn’t have happened? Since the church is what made the work by numerous people possible.[/quote]
I admit the church played a part, yes.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
The inventors of formal geometry were polytheists… does that mean polytheism caused the invention of formal geometry, or even more absurdly, that ONLY polytheists could invent it?[/quote]
You understand the difference between develop and invent? My meme does not say invent.[/quote]
You don’t seem to understand. No single person or group invented the scientific method. It was developed over thousands of years, across several different societies by several different people belonging to several different religions.
99% of the heavy lifting was already done before 1170 ACE. Your pic is a gross misrepresentation of the truth.
[/quote]
So you are admitting that without the church it wouldn’t have happened? Since the church is what made the work by numerous people possible.[/quote]
I admit the church played a part, yes. [/quote]
Do you admit that without the church it wouldn’t have happened?
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
I can’t believe that this discussion turned into a political/religious rant that has nothing to do with the OP…
[/quote]
You have been here long enough to know better.
For the record, I grew up in a smaller town (think regional schools) and the kids that went to the Catholic middle school did better in school than those of us that went to the public school. (Except of me of course ;))
The only differences from what I recall, in subject matter, is they had theoligy classes where they learned religious topics and I didn’t.
I have had “non-religious” family send their kids to the Catholic school, because kids perform better there and get a better education. (Not a single admin there gave two shits about the religious belief of the kids either to be honest. They preferred people believe, but didn’t shun anyone from an education.)
We also had our daughter at a Catholic hospital because the level of care there is far and above the non church affiliated hospitals in our immediate area. And neither my wife or I are particularly religious, nor did they care. (I believe in SOMETHING, just haven’t found a “system” I feel is right. So… I’m a heathen… haha)
As for the OP, I don’t feel I know enough to make an intelligent comment, so sorry for adding to the hijack…
EDIT: to v two
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Bambi wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,
I have only heard “shut up idiot” from you and my 7 year old when he is well and truly pissed at his sister, we don’t have to debate how this started (it was you) now continue fucking off, I’m getting some sleep.[/quote]
I hope you slept well B r i a n. Did you dream of Obama being reelected and the government growing even larger? That is every lefty’s dream isn’t it? “Please take more of our money you spend it so much better than we could.”
LOL M O R N I N I N G!![/quote]
I dream of the state growing larger and larger every day, subsuming entrepreneurship between red tape and ethnic diversity affirmation action forms. Lolamidoingitrite[/quote]
How far along are you folks in Scotland?[/quote]
In all seriousness, I saw a statistic from a few years back that we had a higher proportion of people employed in the public sector than Cuba or China. That’s not sustainable. But we have an ‘executive’ (devolved administration similar to Quebec) basically blaming the evil English for everything. It’s not Scotland’s fault it has endemic crime, drink and drug problems, and low levels of private sector involvement, it’s all the eeeevill meddling from Westminister. Depresses me.
As for private schools, I went to one in the UK, and to a state (public school) as well. The level of difference was noticeable but the private school didn’t take any money from the government - it was designated as a charity so it wasn’t taxed as much but the result was it could invest more in its facilties and take pupils from a poorer background such as myself on full bursaries. It was ‘nominally religious’ but people didn’t really care what you believed as long as you got on with other people. If that is the model replicated in the USA, good luck to it. What worried me was the ‘parents come first’ mantra - at my school the teachers knew their shit and any parent getting involved was quickly slapped down. I am NOT saying the parent is always wrong, but usually the teachers know more about what they’re doing than the parent. The exception I would make is for kids with disabilities - when I teach them I usually defer to parent’s advice because they have more experience of it if the kid goes off on one, for example.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/01/us-education-vouchers-idUSL1E8H10AG20120601
Louisiana’s bold bid to privatize schools
i - Louisiana is embarking on the nation’s boldest experiment in privatizing public education, with the state preparing to shift tens of millions in tax dollars out of the public schools to pay private industry, businesses owners and church pastors to educate children.[/i]
Starting this fall, thousands of poor and middle-class kids will get vouchers covering the full cost of tuition at more than 120 private schools across Louisiana, including small, Bible-based church schools.
The following year, students of any income will be eligible for mini-vouchers that they can use to pay a range of private-sector vendors for classes and apprenticeships not offered in traditional public schools. The money can go to industry trade groups, businesses, online schools and tutors, among others.
Every time a student receives a voucher of either type, his local public school will lose a chunk of state funding.
“We are changing the way we deliver education,” said Governor Bobby Jindal, a Republican who muscled the plan through the legislature this spring over fierce objections from Democrats and teachers unions. “We are letting parents decide what’s best for their children, not government.”
Full story:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/01/us-education-vouchers-idUSL1E8H10AG20120601[/quote]
Well, I am interested to see the results. I get the arguments from both sides, so seeing it in practice will be the ultimate test.
I am a little split on the issue, mainly because my personal experience with private to public has been the opposite of what one would think. My experience with the public schools in my area have been top notch. Where as when I had my kids in the private school, I was very disappointed to say the least.
Anyway, I am looking forward to see how this experiment works.
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
While I do not think this is going to work out very well for the taxpayers or the students, it is nice to see someone at least trying to seriously reform the education system. I am not too sure how I feel about taxpayer dollars being used to send students to private education centers. I know that I am not a fan of using taxpayer dollars to pay for tuition at religious institutions, but the more I think about it the less I like the idea of using tax dollars to send students to any kind of private schools. One of the main reasons that private schools exist is because the people who run them do not want to follow the standard educational guidelines, which is fine as far as it goes, but by doing so they forfeit government funding for their school. I think this should include allowing using taxpayer dollars to pay for tuition at those schools. If a parent would rather send their kids to a private school, fine. I am even okay with exempting them from paying taxes that would go towards paying for public schools, but if they can not afford it then it is not the responsibility of the community to send their kids to a private school.
Another major problem I have with this is the lack of a standard curriculum in private schools as well as the quality of the private schools who are willing to accept the most students. They tend to be the smaller and understaffed schools who are not any better then or even worse then public schools. The top schools are doing just fine and the $8000 or so dollars they would receive from the state would not even cover the cost of tuition there, so they lose money by accepting voucher students. Also, the schools that charge less then the $8000 or so that would normally go to paying for public schools have the right, according to this law, to claim up to that amount in unspecified fees. How much do you guys want to bet that nearly all of the schools are going to charge that amount?
Also, think about it financially. The article said that those who make up to $60,000 per year will get vouchers for full tuition and cost up to the $8,000 or so that would have gone to paying for a public education. The money that is used sending those kids to private school is taken from the funding for public schools. People who earn $60,000 or less do not pay $8,000 in education taxes. I make over twice that and I barely pay more then $10,000 per year. This means that a lot of people who pay less in taxes will take out more then they put in, meaning that either parents in income ranges higher then $60,000 will not get vouchers for $8,000, probably not even the amount they paid in taxes, and will have to pay out of pocket for private schools causing them to spend even more on education, or they will have to send their kids to the public schools who have lost most of their funding to sending low income students to private schools. I just do not see this working out very well.[/quote]
Accredited schools do have to follow a minimum standard for curriculum, so I really don’t see that as a worry. And this is Louisiana their school systems have been the asshole of school systems for decades. If this were going to be tried anywhere, Louisiana or Mississippi was the place to do it…
[quote]pat wrote:
I am a little split on the issue, mainly because my personal experience with private to public has been the opposite of what one would think. My experience with the public schools in my area have been top notch. Where as when I had my kids in the private school, I was very disappointed to say the least.
[/quote]
Can you go into more detail if you don’t mind?