[quote]want2getlean wrote:
I think the only ‘keepable gains’ are with really mild bullshit, and even there hardly so.
I don’t believe in keepable gains. I believe when you first start cycling, you’re either on it until you achieve something big, or drop it. I REALLY don’t believe in keepable gains.[/quote]
+1
That’s me.
And just watch the pro’s coming off for good.
Did anyone notice the OP original quote of lack of sleep ?
there are MANY things accumulating to one big fail here…
Similar to John Woodens pyramid to success is Dirk’s Simple pyramid to sport success:
1st : think positive, it all start in the head
2nd : Breath properly, you can live three minutes (michael phelps excluded) with out air.
3rd : SLEEP DEEP, everyone knows this is when the body heals and rebuilds itself
4th : Eat clean, just like your automotive engine, yours works better the cleaner the fuel
5th : train consistently, most dont and then wonder why they do not make progress
6th : have a breatheren of people around you who support what you are trying to accomplish
7th : have FUN, “it doesnt have to be fun, to be fun”(mark twight, american alpinist, gym jones)
there you go…I too though have had trouble retaining STRENGTH coming off of A epistane cycle even
though I did everything propoerly according to Bonez217. I still have the size but the strength went
down about 15% ; ) Hope this helps out a lot…
[quote]Aaargh wrote:
And just watch the pro’s coming off for good.[/quote]
again, I don’t think this applies to all populations. The pros are so massively over their genetic limit they’re bound to lose some size. If you are cycling to reach your genetic limit, I think you’ll keep it (providing your diet and training don’t suck…).
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
you can absolutely keep your gains
[/quote]
…and for many years I thought like this.
Don’t want to argue you. Been enough in the game to know about diet and training, but only gains I ever kept, where those that came natu.
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
or else what’s the point?[/quote]
That’s the question.
You can definitely keep your gains, but just like when your ‘off’ you can’t have super-physiological amounts of muscle AND leanness. When you come off, gain a moderate amount of body fat, or stay lean and lose muscle mass, just don’t freak out about it.
Leanness AND impressive muscularity is naturally impossible. You must choose ONE when you come off.
If you bulk with nandrolone all winter then slice up with Trenbolone and T3, don’t think for a fucking second you can walk around with that amount of muscularity and keep your ‘cutting cycle’ leanness for any sustained amount of time when you come off.
The end result of cycling, after PCT, will be:
1.) Decreased bodyfat -or-
2.) Increased muscularity
Whatever you don’t choose will suffer when you come off. Period.
-PTD
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
Did anyone notice the OP original quote of lack of sleep ?
there are MANY things accumulating to one big fail here…
Similar to John Woodens pyramid to success is Dirk’s Simple pyramid to sport success:
1st : think positive, it all start in the head
2nd : Breath properly, you can live three minutes (michael phelps excluded) with out air.
3rd : SLEEP DEEP, everyone knows this is when the body heals and rebuilds itself
4th : Eat clean, just like your automotive engine, yours works better the cleaner the fuel
5th : train consistently, most dont and then wonder why they do not make progress
6th : have a breatheren of people around you who support what you are trying to accomplish
7th : have FUN, “it doesnt have to be fun, to be fun”(mark twight, american alpinist, gym jones)
there you go…I too though have had trouble retaining STRENGTH coming off of A epistane cycle even
though I did everything propoerly according to Bonez217. I still have the size but the strength went
down about 15% ; ) Hope this helps out a lot…[/quote]
Im surprised nobody else mentioned my lack of sleep…I am now going to bed at 10.30 starting this week, having a pre workout meal before I train (ie cottage cheese/fruit). eat within 1 hour of my pwo shake…let’s see if that help’s…
I’ve kept all my gains from my last cycle. My strength actually went UP during PCT and continues to do so…
anyway back to the OP:
John, I would have a more stodgy pre-workout meal than just some cottage cheese and fruit.
You want to eat as much dead animal and plant matter as possible
[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
You can definitely keep your gains, but just like when your ‘off’ you can’t have super-physiological amounts of muscle AND leanness. When you come off, gain a moderate amount of body fat, or stay lean and lose muscle mass, just don’t freak out about it.
Leanness AND impressive muscularity is naturally impossible. You must choose ONE when you come off.
If you bulk with nandrolone all winter then slice up with Trenbolone and T3, don’t think for a fucking second you can walk around with that amount of muscularity and keep your ‘cutting cycle’ leanness for any sustained amount of time when you come off.
The end result of cycling, after PCT, will be:
1.) Decreased bodyfat -or-
2.) Increased muscularity
Whatever you don’t choose will suffer when you come off. Period.
-PTD [/quote]
You can stay lean after cycling and keep muscle. You need iron discipline and a freaking clean diet to do it. The key to keeping gains is to maintain as much of the strength as possible into and after PCT. That way when you are recovered and up the volume, you will get up to somewhere near your previous level of muscularity.
[quote]John Mclane wrote:
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
Did anyone notice the OP original quote of lack of sleep ?
there are MANY things accumulating to one big fail here…
Similar to John Woodens pyramid to success is Dirk’s Simple pyramid to sport success:
1st : think positive, it all start in the head
2nd : Breath properly, you can live three minutes (michael phelps excluded) with out air.
3rd : SLEEP DEEP, everyone knows this is when the body heals and rebuilds itself
4th : Eat clean, just like your automotive engine, yours works better the cleaner the fuel
5th : train consistently, most dont and then wonder why they do not make progress
6th : have a breatheren of people around you who support what you are trying to accomplish
7th : have FUN, “it doesnt have to be fun, to be fun”(mark twight, american alpinist, gym jones)
there you go…I too though have had trouble retaining STRENGTH coming off of A epistane cycle even
though I did everything propoerly according to Bonez217. I still have the size but the strength went
down about 15% ; ) Hope this helps out a lot…[/quote]
Im surprised nobody else mentioned my lack of sleep…I am now going to bed at 10.30 starting this week, having a pre workout meal before I train (ie cottage cheese/fruit). eat within 1 hour of my pwo shake…let’s see if that help’s…
[/quote]
Probably because you didn’t mention what time you wake up, only what time you go to bed. 11:30 pm? LOL…I’ve still got two more meals to go at that time, but I’m a night owl and dont go to bed till 2 am.
If you are going to bed at 11:30 and getting up at 3 am, I can see that being a problem. But if you’re getting up at 6 am or so? Meh…Sleep is overrated IMO
What I really saw from your post is that you seem to stress over simple things (you missed TWO meals in your month long recovery? Give me a fucking break…never in my life would I have thought 2 meals missed was significant…
I could be wrong, but I got the intitial impression that you just stress yourself out over the tiniest details…that will do WAY more damage to your long term recovery than missing a couple meals or getting 6 hours of sleep
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[quote]John Mclane wrote:
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
Did anyone notice the OP original quote of lack of sleep ?
there are MANY things accumulating to one big fail here…
Similar to John Woodens pyramid to success is Dirk’s Simple pyramid to sport success:
1st : think positive, it all start in the head
2nd : Breath properly, you can live three minutes (michael phelps excluded) with out air.
3rd : SLEEP DEEP, everyone knows this is when the body heals and rebuilds itself
4th : Eat clean, just like your automotive engine, yours works better the cleaner the fuel
5th : train consistently, most dont and then wonder why they do not make progress
6th : have a breatheren of people around you who support what you are trying to accomplish
7th : have FUN, “it doesnt have to be fun, to be fun”(mark twight, american alpinist, gym jones)
there you go…I too though have had trouble retaining STRENGTH coming off of A epistane cycle even
though I did everything propoerly according to Bonez217. I still have the size but the strength went
down about 15% ; ) Hope this helps out a lot…[/quote]
Im surprised nobody else mentioned my lack of sleep…I am now going to bed at 10.30 starting this week, having a pre workout meal before I train (ie cottage cheese/fruit). eat within 1 hour of my pwo shake…let’s see if that help’s…
[/quote]
Probably because you didn’t mention what time you wake up, only what time you go to bed. 11:30 pm? LOL…I’ve still got two more meals to go at that time, but I’m a night owl and dont go to bed till 2 am.
If you are going to bed at 11:30 and getting up at 3 am, I can see that being a problem. But if you’re getting up at 6 am or so? Meh…Sleep is overrated IMO
What I really saw from your post is that you seem to stress over simple things (you missed TWO meals in your month long recovery? Give me a fucking break…never in my life would I have thought 2 meals missed was significant…
I could be wrong, but I got the intitial impression that you just stress yourself out over the tiniest details…that will do WAY more damage to your long term recovery than missing a couple meals or getting 6 hours of sleep[/quote]
I know Im a stress head but it was around my work problems that people started saying I was loosing weight
[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
You can definitely keep your gains, but just like when your ‘off’ you can’t have super-physiological amounts of muscle AND leanness. When you come off, gain a moderate amount of body fat, or stay lean and lose muscle mass, just don’t freak out about it.
Leanness AND impressive muscularity is naturally impossible. You must choose ONE when you come off.
If you bulk with nandrolone all winter then slice up with Trenbolone and T3, don’t think for a fucking second you can walk around with that amount of muscularity and keep your ‘cutting cycle’ leanness for any sustained amount of time when you come off.
The end result of cycling, after PCT, will be:
1.) Decreased bodyfat -or-
2.) Increased muscularity
Whatever you don’t choose will suffer when you come off. Period.
-PTD [/quote]
^^^^^^
Agreed.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[quote]John Mclane wrote:
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
Did anyone notice the OP original quote of lack of sleep ?
there are MANY things accumulating to one big fail here…
Similar to John Woodens pyramid to success is Dirk’s Simple pyramid to sport success:
1st : think positive, it all start in the head
2nd : Breath properly, you can live three minutes (michael phelps excluded) with out air.
3rd : SLEEP DEEP, everyone knows this is when the body heals and rebuilds itself
4th : Eat clean, just like your automotive engine, yours works better the cleaner the fuel
5th : train consistently, most dont and then wonder why they do not make progress
6th : have a breatheren of people around you who support what you are trying to accomplish
7th : have FUN, “it doesnt have to be fun, to be fun”(mark twight, american alpinist, gym jones)
there you go…I too though have had trouble retaining STRENGTH coming off of A epistane cycle even
though I did everything propoerly according to Bonez217. I still have the size but the strength went
down about 15% ; ) Hope this helps out a lot…[/quote]
Im surprised nobody else mentioned my lack of sleep…I am now going to bed at 10.30 starting this week, having a pre workout meal before I train (ie cottage cheese/fruit). eat within 1 hour of my pwo shake…let’s see if that help’s…
[/quote]
Probably because you didn’t mention what time you wake up, only what time you go to bed. 11:30 pm? LOL…I’ve still got two more meals to go at that time, but I’m a night owl and dont go to bed till 2 am.
If you are going to bed at 11:30 and getting up at 3 am, I can see that being a problem. But if you’re getting up at 6 am or so? Meh…Sleep is overrated IMO
What I really saw from your post is that you seem to stress over simple things (you missed TWO meals in your month long recovery? Give me a fucking break…never in my life would I have thought 2 meals missed was significant…
I could be wrong, but I got the intitial impression that you just stress yourself out over the tiniest details…that will do WAY more damage to your long term recovery than missing a couple meals or getting 6 hours of sleep[/quote]
I don’t think sleep is overared as Ive been waking up exhausted…just cannot get up when my alarm goes off, hopefully that will change now.
I could be wrong, but I got the intitial impression that you just stress yourself out over the tiniest details…that will do WAY more damage to your long term recovery than missing a couple meals or getting 6 hours of sleep" vtballa
I do agree with VT on this point as stressing over really insignificant shit will effect a lot of your life
including sleep. You may have a case of “paralysis through analysis”.
Missing two meals in a months time, yeah, that in and of itself is not even worth the brain power it took
to stress over…
Here ya go: my updated THREE point plan…Sleep Deep, Eat MEAT and lift HEAVY !
See…pretty fucking simple ; )
[quote]killerDIRK wrote:
I could be wrong, but I got the intitial impression that you just stress yourself out over the tiniest details…that will do WAY more damage to your long term recovery than missing a couple meals or getting 6 hours of sleep" vtballa
I do agree with VT on this point as stressing over really insignificant shit will effect a lot of your life
including sleep. You may have a case of “paralysis through analysis”.
Missing two meals in a months time, yeah, that in and of itself is not even worth the brain power it took
to stress over…
Here ya go: my updated THREE point plan…Sleep Deep, Eat MEAT and lift HEAVY !
See…pretty fucking simple ; )[/quote]
Fair enough bro, it s actually two missed meals withina couple of days and anxious/stressful feelings over a work situation that hopefully will sort itself out that all happened over a short period of time…anyway I am trying, as I said Im going to bed earlier, eating a little more, will let you know how I get on.
Yippy kia yay MotherF*cker ! I did not mean to sound rude, so I apologize.
I can relate to the work/stress part of the equation. To go back to the original question though;
It is tough since I have only done 1 epistane cycle myself and did every little thing correct only
to have the STRENGTH aspect fall off 15% while maintaining the size that I do not need as much as
the strength. For my primary SPORT of cycling as in many sports the higher your strength to weight
ratio the better off you are : ) good luck and keep us informed !