I agree with Prof.X,this just shows all the B.S. we’ve been hearing the last few years about what we are gonna do if terrorist attacks is just that B.S. They would have been sittin there while everbodies dyin doing nothing,as long as georgie boy and his crew and chaney etc. all went and hid in their holes.In a country like ours that wants to police the rest of the world & tax us like they do it should never take this long to react to keep our citizens from dying.Sure there are a few bad eggs causing trouble,but the majority of the people want and need help yesterday.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
futuredave wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Yeah - it’s easy to Monday morning qb when you have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight.
It’s not Monday, it’s Thursday. That’s a big part of the problem.
What in the hell could one man do for a city that is built below sea level?
One man? He’s the president last I checked. The meteorologist were literally screaming about how devestating this was going to be on Sunday. I was under the impression we’d geared up for all sorts of catastrophies after 9/11. Seems we’re not as prepared as I thought. That’s the point.
You can bitch all you want about how Bush did ir didn’t do anything. But in the big picture - you sound like spoiled kids.
Spoiled kids? Can you not resort to name calling for once? If you don’t have anything to say other than “don’t critisize the President” then how about just not posting.
Questioning this nations level of preparedness in case of catastrophic events is not the whining of spoiled kids. The future holds earthquakes, floods, terrorist attacts and god knows what else. Yes, “shit happens” and one of the very important jobs of the president is to make sure we’re prepared for it.
You can’t be prepared for this level of destruction. You bitching is solving nothing.
And for those of you with their feelings on their sleeves - saying that you sound like spoiled kids is not name calling. You are throwing rocks for no real purpose.
You wanna do something about it? Then get off your ass, donate money, get the hell to NOLA - but sitting in your comfortable California home and bitching is just childish. And once again - you know it.
So spare me the “quit calling me names” bullshit.
[/quote]
Dude, either be a Christian or be an asshole, but make a choice already.
Now, go back to masturbating to your GWB posters and stop crying everytime anybody says anything remotely critical of the administration.
/Shhh, don’t ask questions. It’s unamerican.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,
Mentioning me by name and then insulting me is a personal attack. Personal attacks are not just name calling… and you very well know it.
Perhaps you should take your own advice and lay off it… or stop complaining when other people do it also.[/quote]
Ha ha vroom you want so badly to turn the tables on me…Obvious man.
I repeat stating that you say “silly things” at times, and that you point out the obvious is not a personal attack. Would you like me to remind you what a personal attack is by posting some of your more famous ones? Up to you.
Zeb,
Stop playing dumb. You know full well saying that I like to make sure everyone knows this or that attribute about myself is a negative comment about me personally.
You didn’t say I like to say “silly things”.
Try being honest and reasonable for a change. It would mean you’d have to stop being hypocritical for a while, but give it a shot.
I’m perfectly willing to start calling you names and saying “silly things” about you and let people see it for themselves if that is what you really want. Besides, I’d really rather do it myself as you always misquote me anyway.
It seems to be what you keep pushing for…
[quote]futuredave wrote:
Dude, either be a Christian or be an asshole, but make a choice already.[/quote]
I never knew it was an either/or proposition. Silly me.
[quote]Now, go back to masturbating to your GWB posters and stop crying everytime anybody says anything remotely critical of the administration.
/Shhh, don’t ask questions. It’s unamerican. [/quote]
FOr a little man with a complex about being called a name, you have no problem dishing it out, do you?
I never said not to question the president. This is just not the time. You prove yourself to more classless with each additional post. Nice job.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
futuredave wrote:
Dude, either be a Christian or be an asshole, but make a choice already.
I never knew it was an either/or proposition. Silly me. [/quote]
I forgive you. And leave you with these words from James:
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers… Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
And from Matthew:
“Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven… But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
I’m just saying, keep in mind that a lot of young, non-Christians read these boards. If you are going to claim to be a Christian when it’s convenient, you should speak like one when it’s not.
I like how you call everybody “little man” when you’re tying to sound macho. Oooh, I can just feel my balls shrivelling up.
For the record, my first post was simply questioning why we weren’t more prepared as a nation for a catastrophe of this magnatude. I live in L.A. and would hope that when the Big One comes we are more prepared than this.
Why you felt the need to respond with an ad hominem attack and call me a “spoiled kid” is beyond me.
Maybe you should spend more time reading your Bible and actually learn what it says and less time picking fights over posts that have nothing to do with you.
[/quote]
[quote]futuredave wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Yeah - it’s easy to Monday morning qb when you have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight.
It’s not Monday, it’s Thursday. That’s a big part of the problem.
What in the hell could one man do for a city that is built below sea level?
One man? He’s the president last I checked. The meteorologist were literally screaming about how devestating this was going to be on Sunday. I was under the impression we’d geared up for all sorts of catastrophies after 9/11. Seems we’re not as prepared as I thought. That’s the point.
You can bitch all you want about how Bush did ir didn’t do anything. But in the big picture - you sound like spoiled kids.
Spoiled kids? Can you not resort to name calling for once? If you don’t have anything to say other than “don’t critisize the President” then how about just not posting.
Questioning this nations level of preparedness in case of catastrophic events is not the whining of spoiled kids. The future holds earthquakes, floods, terrorist attacts and god knows what else. Yes, “shit happens” and one of the very important jobs of the president is to make sure we’re prepared for it.
[/quote]
Agreed. It is nearly Friday…and we can’t fly some bottled water into NO and drop it on the Superdome? People are dying. If this had been a “biological terror act” we are showing that we were totally unprepared to actually do anything if we were “attacked” again. Why would anyone make excuses for that? I am a little shocked at how poorly he seemed to manage this situation and at how “distant” his presence is in all of it. I don’t know any president before him, including his own father, that would have handled things this way. Does pointing that out really piss anyone off? Does it piss you off more than people dying due to us not being prepared?
What the hell is everyone talking about they dont mind that people are stealing food and water to survive? That is total bullshit! My area got hit by 4 (as in FUCKING 4!) hurricanes last year and nobody looted the fucking grocery store! People have been in the area since BEFORE the storm giving out FREE shit and what happens? Gang wars in the Superdome and fucking thievery! Stealing is wrong, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And shooting at the people that are trying to help them? bullshit on top of bullshit. These are not good people doing what they need to to survive, these are fucking low-lifes who just needed an excuse. My friend was in Louissiana and Mississippi at the time the storm hit, and do you know what the first places to get looted were? It wasnt the Piggly-Wiggly for damn sure, it was gun shops! All the social commentary on this is totally bunk as far as i’m corncerned. If someone broke into your house and stole something, even if they needed it to survive, you know your ass would call the cops at the very least cuz that son of a bitch is a CRIMINAL! Sorry for the rant, but this is a discussion i’ve had with too many people that spit out that bleeding heart bullshit that i know would never happen if they were in that situation.
I think the question of “response time” is an interesting one. Pretty much the same questions arose after the Iraqi Army melted away and the looters took over Baghdad.
Probably the biggest problem with NO and Hurricane Katrina is that hurricane cleanup and response is a local and state responsibility. No state wants FEMA or the DHS involved in their business . . . until they ask for them. That’s the major source of delay . . . it took 48 hours to get the Fed involved.
Secondly, you can’t preposition Federal resources until you know where the problem is. You can place them on alert (which they did last week) but they can’t move towards the area until after the hurricane hits . . . and then you have to wait for the weather to improve, the waters to recede and roads and railways to be cleared.
The Federal response has actually been amazingly fast and well-coordinated (despite what FOX news shows us). The evacuees outside of NO are being well-taken care of. Things are also going fairly well in other states that were hit pretty hard.
Now . . . as for NO . . .
First of all, the “hurricane rescue” effort got side-tracked by the flood and then the flood effort got side-tracked by looters and gunfire. Cops who were rescuing people had to be pulled off to enforce law and order.
In the middle of all that confusion, flood waters have continued to rise and the focus has been on yanking people off rooftops. Let’s also remember that there has been no communications since the hurricane hit. Thousands of people (some say almost 100,000) are suddenly realizing that they need to evacuate.
And of course, no one predicted that NO would resemble some 3rd-world African country with the natives running amok.
So what you’re seeing is truly historic and unprecedented. It’s a massive triage effort where resources are being applied to the highest priority.
All that being said, when this is all analyzed, I predict the Army Corps of Engineers, the NO City Government and the State of LA government will look like bumbling idiots. This is not the smooth machine of the NYC government of 9-11.
The State of LA did have 2,000 NG ready to go in. (Of course, these are not its best troops. It’s best troops . . . the 256th Brigade . . . were Federalized and sent to Iraq a year ago.) 2,000 would have been enough to handle search and rescue had there been a normal hurricane and flooding. But they grossly UNDERESTIMATED the troops required given the size of the storm. They also underestimated the strength of the dykes and the capacity of their pumps.
These state and local leaders are incompetent, stupid, mostly uneducated political hacks . . . but that’s the Big Easy.
FEMA, the DHS, DoD and several other Federal agencies (like the National Guard Bureau) are going to come out smelling like roses. So will the President.
My .02
J
[quote]tjd772 wrote:
What the hell is everyone talking about they dont mind that people are stealing food and water to survive? That is total bullshit! My area got hit by 4 (as in FUCKING 4!) hurricanes last year and nobody looted the fucking grocery store! People have been in the area since BEFORE the storm giving out FREE shit and what happens? Gang wars in the Superdome and fucking thievery! Stealing is wrong, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And shooting at the people that are trying to help them? bullshit on top of bullshit. These are not good people doing what they need to to survive, these are fucking low-lifes who just needed an excuse. My friend was in Louissiana and Mississippi at the time the storm hit, and do you know what the first places to get looted were? It wasnt the Piggly-Wiggly for damn sure, it was gun shops! All the social commentary on this is totally bunk as far as i’m corncerned. If someone broke into your house and stole something, even if they needed it to survive, you know your ass would call the cops at the very least cuz that son of a bitch is a CRIMINAL! Sorry for the rant, but this is a discussion i’ve had with too many people that spit out that bleeding heart bullshit that i know would never happen if they were in that situation.[/quote]
I currently live in the same area that got hit by four hurricanes. I lost my previous apartment in one of them…and not once were the conditions anything like they are in New Orleans. I am currious now, exactly what part of Florida do you live in where you had no access to food for nearly a week, there were dead bodies floating in the water and people were trapped in their attics for days? I must have missed all of this. These people are TRAPPED in New Orleans. The people who could get out, did already. The devestation in Florida is nothing like what New Orleans is facing now and I am amazed that you even took that stance.
I was right here when there was no gas and nothing to eat. I had to drive out of state to get food one day. I slept in my office until I was able to find a place to stay and I would never relate that to what is going on in that state.
Why would anyone be against someone getting food to eat when an entire city has been evacuated? 50" tvs and breaking into hospitals are a different matter.
[quote]JJJJ wrote:
All that being said, when this is all analyzed, I predict the Army Corps of Engineers, the NO City Government and the State of LA government will look like bumbling idiots. This is not the smooth machine of the NYC government of 9-11.
The State of LA did have 2,000 NG ready to go in. (Of course, these are not its best troops. It’s best troops . . . the 256th Brigade . . . were Federalized and sent to Iraq a year ago.) 2,000 would have been enough to handle search and rescue had there been a normal hurricane and flooding. But they grossly UNDERESTIMATED the troops required given the size of the storm. They also underestimated the strength of the dykes and the capacity of their pumps.
These state and local leaders are incompetent, stupid, mostly uneducated political hacks . . . but that’s the Big Easy.
FEMA, the DHS, DoD and several other Federal agencies (like the National Guard Bureau) are going to come out smelling like roses. So will the President.
J[/quote]
I agreed with most of what you wrote except that last statement.
[quote]vroom wrote:
The point I was making, about visible law enforcement, is that if you have the ability to shoot these people [because you are there watching them]… then you won’t need to shoot them.
[/quote]
Not true. Criminals in this country are getting more brazen and are less detered by laws and the threatj of punishment or police. In this case the police don’t have the upper hand, the criminals have gotten guns and the mob mentality is partly fueling them. Lethal force is the only thing that will stop a lot of them. Howerver, shooting someone who is stealing a tv is not how cops deal with the situation in normal everyday life and this disaster doesn’t make it different. A shop owner defending his store is a different story, but I would have tried to get the fuck out and not wait around to shoot looters.
[quote]futuredave wrote:
I forgive you. And leave you with these words from James:
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers… Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
And from Matthew:
“Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven… But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
I’m just saying, keep in mind that a lot of young, non-Christians read these boards. If you are going to claim to be a Christian when it’s convenient, you should speak like one when it’s not.
FOr a little man with a complex about being called a name, you have no problem dishing it out, do you?
I like how you call everybody “little man” when you’re tying to sound macho. Oooh, I can just feel my balls shrivelling up.
For the record, my first post was simply questioning why we weren’t more prepared as a nation for a catastrophe of this magnatude. I live in L.A. and would hope that when the Big One comes we are more prepared than this.
Why you felt the need to respond with an ad hominem attack and call me a “spoiled kid” is beyond me.
Maybe you should spend more time reading your Bible and actually learn what it says and less time picking fights over posts that have nothing to do with you.
[/quote]
For a person that hates Jesus and the whole christianity thing so much - you certainly like to wear your judges robe an awful lot. But that’s fine with me - judge all you want. Your judgement holds no sway with me.
But it is certainly a nice straw-man diversion ffrom the actual topic at hand.
Bravo.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Agreed. It is nearly Friday…and we can’t fly some bottled water into NO and drop it on the Superdome? People are dying. If this had been a “biological terror act” we are showing that we were totally unprepared to actually do anything if we were “attacked” again. Why would anyone make excuses for that? I am a little shocked at how poorly he seemed to manage this situation and at how “distant” his presence is in all of it. I don’t know any president before him, including his own father, that would have handled things this way. Does pointing that out really piss anyone off? Does it piss you off more than people dying due to us not being prepared?[/quote]
What is pissing me off is the fact that your criticisms are doing absolutely no good right now.
It just seems like bullshit to me that there are those bitching about the gate being open after all the cows have gotten out. Get the cows back in and figure out how to not let it happen again later. But bitching about it right now won’t put a single cow back in.
How is that offensive to you?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Agreed. It is nearly Friday…and we can’t fly some bottled water into NO and drop it on the Superdome? People are dying. If this had been a “biological terror act” we are showing that we were totally unprepared to actually do anything if we were “attacked” again. Why would anyone make excuses for that? I am a little shocked at how poorly he seemed to manage this situation and at how “distant” his presence is in all of it. I don’t know any president before him, including his own father, that would have handled things this way. Does pointing that out really piss anyone off? Does it piss you off more than people dying due to us not being prepared?
What is pissing me off is the fact that your criticisms are doing absolutely no good right now.
It just seems like bullshit to me that there are those bitching about the gate being open after all the cows have gotten out. Get the cows back in and figure out how to not let it happen again later. But bitching about it right now won’t put a single cow back in.
How is that offensive to you?[/quote]
It isn’t. It also doesn’t surprise me that, with the near-religious devotion some seem to have towards Pres. Bush, that some are willing to overlook what appears to be a grand oversight on the part of this government. However, I will be very quick to point it out. It is blatantly obvious that we were not prepared for ANY type of grand scale tragedy…and after 9/11, that amazes me. This isn’t a “political issue” but one where I am looking directly at how the president seems to be approaching this and seeing shortcomings. His own dad would have been on the television more times by now with a greater look of sincerity on his face…if not already in Houston, TX greeting refugees. Instead, we get distance and an entire secion of this country in a state of neglect that led to every negative issue from deaths to social anarchy.
I understand that things take time…but if a plan had been in place…there is no way it would have taken THIS MUCH time.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Agreed. It is nearly Friday…and we can’t fly some bottled water into NO and drop it on the Superdome? People are dying. If this had been a “biological terror act” we are showing that we were totally unprepared to actually do anything if we were “attacked” again. Why would anyone make excuses for that? I am a little shocked at how poorly he seemed to manage this situation and at how “distant” his presence is in all of it. I don’t know any president before him, including his own father, that would have handled things this way. Does pointing that out really piss anyone off? Does it piss you off more than people dying due to us not being prepared?
What is pissing me off is the fact that your criticisms are doing absolutely no good right now.
It just seems like bullshit to me that there are those bitching about the gate being open after all the cows have gotten out. Get the cows back in and figure out how to not let it happen again later. But bitching about it right now won’t put a single cow back in.
How is that offensive to you?[/quote]
Then how could we even have a thread or discuss the situation here? What is your beef about others having a beef?
There does appear to be little in the way of planning here. Obviously not for this exact situation, but for any. These are unforseen circumstances, but that doesn’t mean we wait it out and make sure all the flippin cows are back in before we react.
People have the right to be outraged and frustrated by the seemingly lack of leadership here. I for one, as a Bush supporter, am disappointed in his canned responses and slow to action position.
I agree with alot of what JJJJ said about response time. Certain things just can’t be done. But the Presidents distance here is plain to see, and I just don’t get it.
I have read this thread in it’s entirety and am appalled at the attitudes of some people.
Prof. X, I have to agree with practically everything you said. I honestly can’t think of anything I disagreed with. (And apparently, our opinions of the pres in this situation are the same!)
Thank you to Boston Barrister (hope I got your name right) for pointing out relief organizations.
The Astrodome is being used as a refugee shelter, as is the city of Austin, as someone else pointed out (sorry, missed your name), and so is the Alamodome in San Antonio.
Step up or shut up.
Here in Vancouver when we lost the Stanley Cup to New York 10 years ago or so, a riot broke out down on Robson Street - essentially the “Rodeo Drive” of this city - and there was some looting.
So even polite, well off Canadian kids will turn into looters over something as simple as a a hockey game.
Mob mentality is fascinating.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Then how could we even have a thread or discuss the situation here? What is your beef about others having a beef?
[/quote]
There is NOTHING that could have been done to prevent this tragedy. Not the President. Not FEMA. Not the entire Congressional Black Caucus.
To blame a single person for the current state of affairs is just idiotic to me. Especially in the middle of all this chaos. I don’t know that 9/11 should have prepared us for having 1.5 million people displaced, and the 23rd largest city in the nation sitting under water.
And to blame the president - regardless of who it is - because there are idiots shooting at helicopters, raping, killing, and preventing the rescue efforts is just wrong.
This is the last I’ll post about it. There is no sense in rehashing what I’ve said for the last 5 posts or so. Either you get it or you don’t.
Prof.X is right ,this just shows the terrorists how weak and unprepaired our country is ,they new this storm was coming and should have prepared for the worst from the beginning.I have talked to some veterans just back from the service and they say its common knowlegde that the chinese and koreans are down in south america,maybe some day they be comin across the mexican border into tejas and some of these peoples opinions will change about having our troops stuck in iraq.The powers that be have us spread to thin.