Looters

Off Topic
101

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
malonetd wrote:

If that is what they believe and know to be true, can you blame them? Is it their fault?

If I’m taught that Santa Claus comes every year and brings gifts and every year there are gifts. No one ever in my lifetime tells me diferent and every year there are stills gifts. Why would I believe anything different?

Because you’re an adult and can seek information on your own. I don’t buy any excuse for what these pinheads are doing. If you need food & water fine, take it. I’m not sure anyone, included the rightful owner would consider that a punishable crime. Looting material good in a situation like this is inexcusable, and those who do it should be shot.

Are you forgetting the teachings of your Bible reddog? Would Jesus be smiling at you right now at you raised the gun sights on your fellow man. For those of you who on the religious threads are quite good at pledging your undying belief in the Lord you are quick to forget his most basic tenets.

When the question was raised “who was doing the looting?” what was the answer supposed to be? Poor black people? And what good does that accomplish, but to incite hateful commentary.

Oh, wait now I see… that poor black people who steal are the fault of democrats who preach dependency and they should be shot on sight.

That’s wonderful, I feel very religious all of a sudden does anybody know of a church I can go to and get to calling for assassinations, shootings on sight of minorities, calling grieving mothers pimps and whores, Oh, wait message just in from P. Robertson… the hurricane is biblical punishment from on high for Bush taking so many vacations and not sending that hit team down south quick enough.

Boy, it feels good to feel the brotherly love! Yeehaw![/quote]

Elk, I bet Pat Robertson’s church would be a good starting point.

As far as shooting the looters, well, reports coming out of NO seem to indicate that there are actual gangs of looters with weapons. The cops are quite overwhelmed and the Nat’l Guard is only just now really establishing their presence. I suppose if the looters were just a few individuals, shooting them would help. But if it’s a large band and you’re just a few cops or guardsmen, you’re gonna get killed. I recollect as well that some guardsmen joined in the looting after Andrew, I think it was. If you’re taking food, water and things for your survival, take it and go with God. If you’re just ripping shit off and fucking your own people over, you better duck. I really don’t feel any sympathy for those who would prey on their own community.

I don’t know who it was that was saying these folks aren’t starving, but A) they are in really deep shit right now and B) the supplies are not there, especially clean water. The people I’ve seen are desperate for both food and water. Ever had to go hungry for any length of time and not known when you’d get any? It’s pretty freakin’ scary and hunger hurts. You get desperate pretty quick and when your kid is crying from hunger pain, you’ll do anything you can to get them food. Have some compassion, people.

I have to agree with reddog on one thing, that we are all responsible for our actions, whatever our upbringing and if you are too lazy, high or whatever to see that there are other ways to live and behave, it’s just not an excuse. The truth is, after all, out there.

WMD

102

[quote]Professor X wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I think that says way more of our society than it does the media alone. I have been asking around for decent charities to donate to. Plus, I have been at work all day so I haven’t seen the ongoing looting footage. I would much rather more focus was placed on getting these people to shelter and finding them temporary jobs in the mean time instead of looking at who is looting.

Coach Staley already took care of that for us via his newsletter.

This list a number of relief org. that accept donations.

Thanks Coach

Thanks, man. Seriously.

Oh, damn…I just remembered…I’m black. That means I don’t have a job and am statistically on wellfare.[/quote]

ROFL

103

I wanted to add that I would use my firearms to protect my home and family if necessary. I would not, however, shoot someone carrying a TV or a bunch of clothes, because that would just not be worth it. Lethal force to protect life is one thing; using it to defend Wal-Mart’s TVs is quite another. Even the cops or Nat’l Guard understand they can’t just shoot willy-nilly. That’s just as anarchistic as not doing anything to stop the looting at all.

How’s about we all make a donation or two? I think we could definitely join forces on that account.

WMD

104

[quote]WMD wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
malonetd wrote:

If that is what they believe and know to be true, can you blame them? Is it their fault?

If I’m taught that Santa Claus comes every year and brings gifts and every year there are gifts. No one ever in my lifetime tells me diferent and every year there are stills gifts. Why would I believe anything different?

Because you’re an adult and can seek information on your own. I don’t buy any excuse for what these pinheads are doing. If you need food & water fine, take it. I’m not sure anyone, included the rightful owner would consider that a punishable crime. Looting material good in a situation like this is inexcusable, and those who do it should be shot.

Are you forgetting the teachings of your Bible reddog? Would Jesus be smiling at you right now at you raised the gun sights on your fellow man. For those of you who on the religious threads are quite good at pledging your undying belief in the Lord you are quick to forget his most basic tenets.

When the question was raised “who was doing the looting?” what was the answer supposed to be? Poor black people? And what good does that accomplish, but to incite hateful commentary.

Oh, wait now I see… that poor black people who steal are the fault of democrats who preach dependency and they should be shot on sight.

That’s wonderful, I feel very religious all of a sudden does anybody know of a church I can go to and get to calling for assassinations, shootings on sight of minorities, calling grieving mothers pimps and whores, Oh, wait message just in from P. Robertson… the hurricane is biblical punishment from on high for Bush taking so many vacations and not sending that hit team down south quick enough.

Boy, it feels good to feel the brotherly love! Yeehaw!

Elk, I bet Pat Robertson’s church would be a good starting point.

As far as shooting the looters, well, reports coming out of NO seem to indicate that there are actual gangs of looters with weapons. The cops are quite overwhelmed and the Nat’l Guard is only just now really establishing their presence. I suppose if the looters were just a few individuals, shooting them would help. But if it’s a large band and you’re just a few cops or guardsmen, you’re gonna get killed. I recollect as well that some guardsmen joined in the looting after Andrew, I think it was. If you’re taking food, water and things for your survival, take it and go with God. If you’re just ripping shit off and fucking your own people over, you better duck. I really don’t feel any sympathy for those who would prey on their own community.

I don’t know who it was that was saying these folks aren’t starving, but A) they are in really deep shit right now and B) the supplies are not there, especially clean water. The people I’ve seen are desperate for both food and water. Ever had to go hungry for any length of time and not known when you’d get any? It’s pretty freakin’ scary and hunger hurts. You get desperate pretty quick and when your kid is crying from hunger pain, you’ll do anything you can to get them food. Have some compassion, people.

I have to agree with reddog on one thing, that we are all responsible for our actions, whatever our upbringing and if you are too lazy, high or whatever to see that there are other ways to live and behave, it’s just not an excuse. The truth is, after all, out there.

WMD[/quote]

Good point i would hate to be up against a quick gang w/ weapons, esp now that bush has given us semi-auto assault weapons. It would definitely be in order to board up the whole damn place.

If you drop a couple of punks in the gang, the others will go to the next building and leave you alone. W/ a mid-sized store like walgreens that would mean boarding up the windowss and front doors…its definitely doable. Patrol inside regularly and come in / out through a back door. Bring a boy or two w/ me and some pump action shotguns , we’ll drink beer and have a good time.

See i dont complain about the morality of the situation, i have never really moralized about things too much. Im a simple guy and if i had to eat heck i’d loot too. But morality for me seems to change on your perspective. If i was a business owner i would darn sure protect what i worked for even if it meant foregoing the comfort of a family member’s or friend’s home.

Im personally never going to live in the NO or LA area after this. Im glad im in Texas all we have to worry about are a few tornados and such; its pretty laid back over in these parts.

BTW it seems that the FEMA and the governmental people are doing an OK but not great job. I think that they should have evacuated more people out. FEMA should be paying greyhound to bus them out to nearby states or counties that can handle people coming in. Even over here in longview which is a good 10 hours away from New orleans we have at least a couple hundred people coming in. Evacuee shelters are all over the east tx area. It irratates me that they just put the people up in the NO dome and just expected everything to be hunky dory well the roof caved in and several people died. Im glad that some National Gaurdsmen have been mobilized and this thread isnt designed to be too much of a dig at GW BUsh but if more national gaurd weren’t in Iraq they could be in LA helping to control the peace.

105

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Not about looters but I just want to say I’m sorry that other countries haven’t offered you guys more help. I just read a story where some environmental group tried to blame the whole thing on global warming caused by America, Hugo Chavez blaming President Bush for unsuccessful evacuations, Arabs celebrating the hurricane, and Europeans debating whether or not people should donate to such a rich country. I haven’t heard of tons of countries lining up to help. I hope that is just the media trying to cover the negativity and not really the case.
…[/quote]

They were not asked so far:

Why Europe Hasn’t Jumped to Help Katrina’s Victims
By Jody K. Biehl in Berlin
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372348,00.html

"… Unlike underdeveloped Third World nations, America has a well-honed and highly organized system of emergency aid distribution. So, when disaster hits, the nation – and even individual states – can readily help themselves. “If the American Red Cross asks us for help, we will be there directly,” said Margitta Zimmermann, German Red Cross spokesperson. “But so far, there haven’t been any calls for our services.”[italics inserted by makkun]…

…Although European agencies won’t be sending relief workers, they will accept donations and pass them on to American aid groups. But for the moment, none are planning a large fundraising drive to help American victims. But, then again, they never do. The only exception came with Sept. 11, when both the German Red Cross and Caritas were swamped with calls from Germans wanting to donate…

…In the wake of Katrina, at least so far, she said, the phone lines have been relatively quiet. By 11 a.m. Tuesday, for instance, Caritas had only received one donation. That may change, however. “The first impressions were that the damage was under control,” Decker said. “But if the media reports continue in the way they did yesterday (Monday), then I think the response will be much greater.”

Sorry for being slightly off topic, but I thought this should be clarified immediately, as anti-European feelings in the forums tend to get a bit out of hand. If asked for direct involvement, they will help.

I agree. I hope the situation will be turning out for the better soon.

Makkun

106

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/weather/index.ssf?/base/national-50/1125536041100733.xml&storylist=hurricane

9/1/2005, 1:45 a.m. CT
By KEVIN McGILL
The Associated Press

NEW ORLEANS (AP) ? Mayor Ray Nagin ordered 1,500 police officers to leave their search-and-rescue mission Wednesday night and return to the streets to stop looting that has turned increasingly hostile as the city plunges deeper into chaos.

“They are starting to get closer to heavily populated areas ? hotels, hospitals, and we’re going to stop it right now,” Nagin said in a statement to The Associated Press.

The number of officers called off the search-and-rescue mission amounts to virtually the entire police force in New Orleans.

Amid the turmoil Wednesday, thieves commandeered a forklift and used it to push up the storm shutters and break the glass of a pharmacy. The crowd stormed the store, carrying out so much ice, water and food that it dropped from their arms as they ran. The street was littered with packages of ramen noodles and other items.

Looters also chased down a police truck full of food. The New Orleans police chief ran off looters while city officials themselves were commandeering equipment from a looted Office Depot. During a state of emergency, authorities have broad powers to take private supplies and buildings for their use.

Managers at a nursing home were prepared to cope with the power outages and had enough food for days, but then the looting began. The home’s bus driver was forced to surrender the vehicle to carjackers.

Bands of people drove by the nursing home, shouting to residents, “Get out!” Eighty residents, most of them in wheelchairs, were being evacuated to other nursing homes in the state.

“We had enough food for 10 days,” said Peggy Hoffman, the home’s executive director. “Now we’ll have to equip our department heads with guns and teach them how to shoot.”

Tenet Healthcare Corp. said late Wednesday that it would also evacuate one of its hospitals in Gretna after a supply truck carrying food, water, medical supplies and pharmaceuticals was held up by gunmen.

“There are physical threats to safety from roving bands of armed individuals with weapons who are threatening the safety of the hospital,” spokesman Steven Campanini said of the 203-bed Meadowcrest Hospital.

He said there were about 350 employees and between 125 to 150 patients inside the hospital, which is not flooded and is functioning.

At one store, hordes of people from all ages, races and walks of life grabbed food and water. Some drove away with trunkloads of beer. At one point, two officers drew their guns on the looters, but the thieves left without incident.

One young man was seen wading through chest-deep floodwater, carrying a case of soda, after looting a grocery store.

Police officers were asking residents to give up any firearms before they evacuated neighborhoods because police desperately needed the firepower: Some officers who had been stranded on the roof of a hotel said they were being shot at overnight.

“It’s really difficult because my opinion of the looting is it started with people running out of food, and you can’t really argue with that too much,” Nagin said. “Then it escalated to this kind of mass chaos.”

Gov. Kathleen Blanco said she has asked the White House to send more people to help with evacuations and rescues, thereby freeing up National Guardsmen to stop looters.

Bob Mann, an aide to the governor, said dozens of law officers are being brought in from around the country and Canada to help stop the looting. Officials said they hope the 4,000 National Guard troops already in New Orleans, who have been engaged in search and rescue, will be available for police actions.

“We will restore law and order,” an emotional Blanco said at a news conference. “What angers me the most is that disasters like this often bring out the worst in people. I will not tolerate this kind of behavior.”

John Matessino, president of the Louisiana Hospital Association, said he had not heard of anyone breaking into the hospitals, but he added that thieves got into the parking garage at one hospital and were stealing car batteries and stereos.

New Orleans’ homeland security chief, Terry Ebbert, said looters were breaking into stores all over town and stealing guns. He said there are gangs of armed men moving around the city. At one point, officers stranded on the roof of a hotel were fired at by criminals on the street.

Authorities said an officer was shot in the head and a looter was wounded in a shootout. The officer and looter were expected to survive.

Associated Press Writer Robert Tanner contributed to this report.

107

I want to cross-post this on related threads:

Here’s a bunch of organizations to which you can donate, courtesy of Instapundit:

http://instapundit.com/archives/025235.php

FLOOD AID UPDATE: Here are some places you can donate to hurricane Katrina relief: (Bumped to top – scroll down for current posts.)

American Red Cross: http://www.redcross.org/

Catholic Charities is involved, and probably has lots of resources to draw on in the heavily Catholic New Orleans area: http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/news/katrina.cfm

Austin Bay is recommending Episcopal Relief and Development: http://www.er-d.org/

Liz at Rightalk suggests that animal lovers donate to the Humane Society: https://secure.hsus.org/01/disaster_relief_fund_2005?

Here’s a link to Mennonite Disaster Services: http://www.mds.mennonite.net/ The Sanity Inspector says they’re highly efficient.

Reader Peter Viditto recommends The Mercy Corps: http://www.mercycorps.org/

Here’s the link for Methodist Relief: http://www.methodistrelief.org/site/pp.asp?c=bhKNI4PHIpE&b=876335

The Salvation Army does good work: http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/ (WalMart just gave them a million dollars, but that’s just the barest beginning of what’s needed.)

Hugh Hewitt recommends Samaritan’s Purse: http://www.samaritanspurse.com/

Scott Ott recommends Southern Baptist Disaster Relief:

I’ll keep updating this as I get new suggestions.

Jay Allen has a further suggestion:

I would suggest people donate through their companies whenever possible. Most major corporations offer matching funds to the dollar for charitable donations. Find who’s collecting money for relief efforts, then file for a match through your employer instead of sending to the agency directly.

Not bad – if your employer is supporting this.

Chuck Simmins is tracking corporate donations: http://blog.simmins.org/2005/08/katrina-donations-begin.html

Technorati Tags: flood aid, Hurricane Katrina: http://technorati.com/tag/hurricane+katrina

108

Look, I don’t think this is the place to politicize this crap.

The fact civilization is a veneer isn’t solved by shooting people. I suspect that simply having adequate quantities of visible law enforcement would solve the problem.

Unfortunately, that isn’t available right now – so whether or not you advocate it, there isn’t going to be such shooting anyway.

This has nothing to do with liberal versus conversative viewpoints. Take the fucking lenses off from time to time.

109

[quote]vroom wrote:
The fact civilization is a veneer isn’t solved by shooting people.[/quote]

What really keeps society from falling into that…other than lack of isolation?

110

[quote]
The fact civilization is a veneer isn’t solved by shooting people. I suspect that simply having adequate quantities of visible law enforcement would solve the problem.[/quote]

I think shooting people is ‘visible law enforcement.’

111

[quote]RankHypocrisy wrote:

The fact civilization is a veneer isn’t solved by shooting people. I suspect that simply having adequate quantities of visible law enforcement would solve the problem.

I think shooting people is ‘visible law enforcement.’[/quote]

Once simple looting escalates to all out violence and further loss of life, I have no problem at all with using a gun.

112

Austin (where I live) is hosting quite a few right now and will probably get several more, as will Houston. Texas does seem to somehow avoid this sort of disaster, at least of this magnitude, anyway. So I reckon I’ll stay awhile.

WMD

113

[quote]makkun wrote:
JPBear wrote:
Not about looters but I just want to say I’m sorry that other countries haven’t offered you guys more help. I just read a story where some environmental group tried to blame the whole thing on global warming caused by America, Hugo Chavez blaming President Bush for unsuccessful evacuations, Arabs celebrating the hurricane, and Europeans debating whether or not people should donate to such a rich country. I haven’t heard of tons of countries lining up to help. I hope that is just the media trying to cover the negativity and not really the case.
…

They were not asked so far:

Why Europe Hasn’t Jumped to Help Katrina’s Victims
By Jody K. Biehl in Berlin
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372348,00.html

"… Unlike underdeveloped Third World nations, America has a well-honed and highly organized system of emergency aid distribution. So, when disaster hits, the nation – and even individual states – can readily help themselves. “If the American Red Cross asks us for help, we will be there directly,” said Margitta Zimmermann, German Red Cross spokesperson. “But so far, there haven’t been any calls for our services.”[italics inserted by makkun]…

…Although European agencies won’t be sending relief workers, they will accept donations and pass them on to American aid groups. But for the moment, none are planning a large fundraising drive to help American victims. But, then again, they never do. The only exception came with Sept. 11, when both the German Red Cross and Caritas were swamped with calls from Germans wanting to donate…

…In the wake of Katrina, at least so far, she said, the phone lines have been relatively quiet. By 11 a.m. Tuesday, for instance, Caritas had only received one donation. That may change, however. “The first impressions were that the damage was under control,” Decker said. “But if the media reports continue in the way they did yesterday (Monday), then I think the response will be much greater.”

Sorry for being slightly off topic, but I thought this should be clarified immediately, as anti-European feelings in the forums tend to get a bit out of hand. If asked for direct involvement, they will help.

Other than that all I can say is that it is just heartbreaking.

I agree. I hope the situation will be turning out for the better soon.

Makkun[/quote]

This is a little weak in my opinion, and possibly the difference between americans and europeans/ the rest of the world. Americans generally try to help even when not asked, sure it gets annoying sometimes, sure we get carried away with it and sometimes over do it. I still feel it is better to over do it than to sit back and assume all is well even when every indicator points to it not being well. Europeans should also understand that even if we do need help, do you actually think we would ask for it? Our pride is what makes us so strong, overcoming hardships and dissasters is what makes us who we are.

That being said, if a friend offered us assistance we would also show how humble we can be by accepting it with thanks. I guess from my point of view, no matter what situation one of my friends was in, even if they were 10 times better off than I was if they ran into a snag, I would be doing everything I could to get them back on thier feet. That is one of the best ways to see who your “real” friends are.

V

114

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
A fact cannot be ‘racist’. It can only be a fact.

While a fact may be a fact, it can be used to promote things, including racism.

Hiding behind “it’s a fact” or “it’s the truth” will get you nowhere…

That’s right, don’t confuse us with the facts. We just care about perception. The truth is irrelevant.

Nice!

[/quote]

Vroom sometimes interjects silly things like this. He simply wants to make sure that we all see that he has read more deeply into the issue than every other person on the board. Even if it means he points out the obvious time after time after time…

115

[quote]Professor X wrote:
RankHypocrisy wrote:

The fact civilization is a veneer isn’t solved by shooting people. I suspect that simply having adequate quantities of visible law enforcement would solve the problem.

I think shooting people is ‘visible law enforcement.’

Once simple looting escalates to all out violence and further loss of life, I have no problem at all with using a gun. [/quote]

Yup…

116

They have suspended evacuation of the Supedome because some of these assholes were shooting at a helicopter.

The cops/NG have to get things in order immediately.

If that means shooting a few people, so be it.

The laws of society have broken down in this area and have to be restored.

117

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
They have suspended evacuation of the Supedome because some of these assholes were shooting at a helicopter.

The cops/NG have to get things in order immediately.

If that means shooting a few people, so be it.

The laws of society have broken down in this area and have to be restored.

[/quote]

I agree, things quickly have gone from stealing tv’s to commiting much more serious crimes. Read BB’s other thread where a a report came out of a childrens hospital that gunman came in and stole all the meds, and also raped a female nurse and shot a guy for trying to stop them. This in my opinion is over the line and i’d say it is now time to meet these roving gangs with extreme force. Another possibility is to evacuate the city and set up a perimiter keeping them forced inside. They want to be kings for a day over this sespool, let them rot in it.

V

118

[quote]RankHypocrisy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Oh, damn…I just remembered…I’m black. That means I don’t have a job and am statistically on wellfare.
I’m a white man myself, and I can squarely admit that most serial killers are white men; yet you rely on the flimsiest of strawmen when I point out verifiable facts that show that blacks commit a disproportionate percentage of violent crime.
A fact cannot be ‘racist’. It can only be a fact. [/quote]

If you are going to share facts tell the whole story. Do the blacks that commit violent crimes tend to be poor? uneducated?

How many middle class and upper class blacks commit violent crimes? There is an income element involved, not just racial. You tell just enough facts to promote your racist views, tell the entire story if you are going to be truthful. Tell it all and be objective.

119

Someone above commented that we shouldn’t politicize this issue (liberal vs conservative) but that is EXACTLY the central point of the argument.

We don’t all see what’s happening on the TV the same way. To me (retired career military, right winger) the quote above is exactly why looting is so dangerous and has to be dealt with. It’s black and white. (No pun intended.)

To my cousin (left-wing attorney in New Jersey) and her husband (ultra left-wing history proffesor at Princeton) . . . like for many of you obviously . . . there are infinite shades of gray. All behavior is “relative” . . . even the worse behavior is “excusable” or “understandable” given certain circumstances. Some of you even quip:

“Shit, if I was there, I’d probably loot too, he-he.”

The social liberal view of the world depends on the “goodness of man” argument. My view depends on the thought that at any time, civilized society is an inch away from chaos.

Who’s right? Depends on your background, I suppose.

I would invite my “understanding” friends on the left side of this spectrum to tour some of the mass graves in Bosnia and take a good whiff of what happens when control breaks down in a “civilized” society.

That situation also started with “a tiny criminal element” breaking the law with no repercussions.

120

[quote]Vegita wrote:
makkun wrote:

…

They were not asked so far:

Why Europe Hasn’t Jumped to Help Katrina’s Victims
By Jody K. Biehl in Berlin
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372348,00.html
…

This is a little weak in my opinion, and possibly the difference between americans and europeans/ the rest of the world. Americans generally try to help even when not asked, sure it gets annoying sometimes, sure we get carried away with it and sometimes over do it. I still feel it is better to over do it than to sit back and assume all is well even when every indicator points to it not being well. Europeans should also understand that even if we do need help, do you actually think we would ask for it? Our pride is what makes us so strong, overcoming hardships and dissasters is what makes us who we are.

[/quote]If you read the article then you have seen that it is being argued that you cannot just send out people in such an effort if not requested. This has nothing to do with willingness, but with keeping an organised approach when dealing with disaster. And “pride” in asking for needed help those circumstances would be completely foolhardy.[quote]

That being said, if a friend offered us assistance we would also show how humble we can be by accepting it with thanks. I guess from my point of view, no matter what situation one of my friends was in, even if they were 10 times better off than I was if they ran into a snag, I would be doing everything I could to get them back on thier feet. That is one of the best ways to see who your “real” friends are.[/quote]

As the US could very well see that support after 9/11, by its real friends, like Germany. And, as said before, if someone is rational enough to ask in case of need, it will be provided.

BTW it should be pointed out that many parts of Europe have just in the last 2 weeks been (as almost every year in recent years) been fighting with big floodings as well. And I am sure, if needed, they would have asked for and received US help as well.

Again, let’s not let the anti-European stance in parts of these forums take over this thread as well. Too bad the topic was brought up in the first place.

Makkun