Looters

Off Topic
81

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Xvim wrote:
There is no commerce of any sort in New Orleans and no running water. Because of this there is no way to get food and water and baby forumula etc. Also, the very few people actually left in the city are those too poor to escape before the flooding. I’m not suprised some TV’s and such are being stolen as well but the food and water thing is totally acceptable.

Also keep in mind most of these people have lost everything they owned, their TV’s their furniture, their very homes, their jobs, etc. So by all means, shoot desperate people trying to survive and barring that shoot the ones who are trying to recover some tiny fraction of what they have lost. It’s the christian thing to do.

They are not recovering what they lost, they are stealing. So if my house burns down, it’s ok for me to steal from my neighbor? That’s a load of crap. [/quote]

Some of the stealing is wrong. We get it. But as a couple have tried to convey–these are extreme conditions. I would do what ever is warranted to save my family and I begrudge noone doing the same.
Do you understand that there are people whose lives will never be the same. NEVER. That for those whose lives do regain some sense of normalcy, it still will always be different.
Get off your high horses and take a good honest look at how PEOPLE have been, and are going to continue to be, affected.
I listened to a wife tell her story of watching her husband–who had lung disease–die in her arms because his oxygen ran out while they waited for help.
Gatorade,water,TV’s–who gives a flying fuck

82

Yeah, I hear you ProfX, the story I read mentioned some looter shooting a cop in the head.

That was the image in my mind when I was thinking something should be done.

Perhaps there are difference classes of looting and lawlessness taking place?

83

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
They are not recovering what they lost, they are stealing. So if my house burns down, it’s ok for me to steal from my neighbor? That’s a load of crap. [/quote]

Yes, that’s exactly what I said. Straw-man much?

My argument is that for the most part these are poor people, with no food, no water and their entire lives destroyed who are looting TV’s and radios and batteries to power them don’t deserve death at the hand of idiot vigiliantes running down the local Wal-mart hoping to shoot some folks. If you take issue with that you’re a fucking moron, not saying that you are necessarily, maybe you just don’t know how to express your thoughts more clearly.

84

It’s one thing to get yourself some food and water. The looting has gone way behond the necessities and is out of control. Explain the logic that it’s ok to steal anything not related to food or water under any condition. The tv is going to be destroyed anyways so it’s ok to steal. Are you guys kidding me?

Not only are people stealing electronics, they’re stealing rifles and shooting at police officers and killing other people. There is absolutely no excuse for this behavior. I can’t believe the reactions I’m reading on this thread. Oh, it’s a natural catastrophe so it’s ok people are acting like animals. Bullshit!

There is NO excuse for this behavior. I’d believe this whether I’m in my safe, air-conditioned home or I was in the middle of the catastrophe in New Orleans. It’s despicable behavior and the attitudes on this thread condoning it or also despicable.

85

[quote]randman wrote:
It’s one thing to get yourself some food and water. The looting has gone way behond the necessities and is out of control. Explain the logic that it’s ok to steal anything not related to food or water under any condition. The tv is going to be destroyed anyways so it’s ok to steal. Are you guys kidding me?

Not only are people stealing electronics, they’re stealing rifles and shooting at police officers and killing other people. There is absolutely no excuse for this behavior. I can’t believe the reactions I’m reading on this thread. Oh, it’s a natural catastrophe so it’s ok people are acting like animals. Bullshit!

There is NO excuse for this behavior. I’d believe this whether I’m in my safe, air-conditioned home or I was in the middle of the catastrophe in New Orleans. It’s despicable behavior and the attitudes on this thread condoning it or also despicable.[/quote]

I think you miss the point? The ENTIRE CITY IS BEING EVACUATED FOR MONTHS. For ANYONE, you, some cops, the people stealing or even store owners to be concerned about some electronics that will be sitting in the open elements for months on end is retarded. I personally could care less if Wal-Mart was picked clean down to the toe nail clippers. There are people who don’t have medications or food to eat and haven’t eaten in days now. You mean to tell me that if you lost EVERYTHING that you wouldn’t try to gain it back if the shit hit the fan like it just did? Where is your cut off point? What if I looted some cereal, a box of a raisins and a radio. Do I get shot because of the radio? You are losing me with your caring of material objects that will be claimed on someone’s insurance…or at least has the possibility of being replaced. There simply seems to be a variety of better places to put our attention.

I feel very sorry for the cop who was shot in the face. Last I heard, he is alive and is doing ok. I hope that is the case.

86

Again with the straw-man, this is getting tired. No one is saying the looting of non-essentials is a good thing or even justified, just that it’s understandable and should have been expected. I went a little further than that and suggested that maybe some of the folks stealing shit didn’t deserve death for stealing an MP3 player or a new DVD player.

87

Most of the stuff will be destroyed by water if it is left in the store (that’s what I have heard at least). Why not let someone try to get it instead of no one using it? Taking advantage of a situation is nothing particularly bad, that’s how life happens. It will be paid for by an insurance company and is of no loss but to some fat cat insurance company.

88

Not about looters but I just want to say I’m sorry that other countries haven’t offered you guys more help. I just read a story where some environmental group tried to blame the whole thing on global warming caused by America, Hugo Chavez blaming President Bush for unsuccessful evacuations, Arabs celebrating the hurricane, and Europeans debating whether or not people should donate to such a rich country. I haven’t heard of tons of countries lining up to help. I hope that is just the media trying to cover the negativity and not really the case.

I have finally watched some news stories about the good people who are pouring in to help and all the donations, even people in other States offering to take in families. I hope that these will be the bulk of the stories we hear about over the next few days, instead of just the horror and lawlessness.

Other than that all I can say is that it is just heartbreaking.

89

[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
It will be paid for by an insurance company and is of no loss but to some fat cat insurance company.[/quote]

I didn’t want to get into this debate, and I’m not going to judge these people stealing diapers and shoes in desperation, but I wanted to address this comment.

Those fat cat insurance companies are owned by little investors like myself. A good portion of my hard-earned retirement money is invested in mutual funds that own insurance companies. So in essence, it is a million little guys like me who have scrimped and saved to put away some money who are being stolen from when insurance companies are defrauded. Besides, if it was just one rich person who owned the whole insurance company, how does that in itself justify the theft?

Don’t degrade the significance of property rights, those rights must be equal in a society or not at all.

90

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think you miss the point? The ENTIRE CITY IS BEING EVACUATED FOR MONTHS. For ANYONE, you, some cops, the people stealing or even store owners to be concerned about some electronics that will be sitting in the open elements for months on end is retarded. I personally could care less if Wal-Mart was picked clean down to the toe nail clippers. There are people who don’t have medications or food to eat and haven’t eaten in days now. You mean to tell me that if you lost EVERYTHING that you wouldn’t try to gain it back if the shit hit the fan like it just did? Where is your cut off point? What if I looted some cereal, a box of a raisins and a radio.
[/quote]

I know the entire city is being evacuated. Even if I lost every thing, it still does not give me a free pass to steal anything I want regardless if I think the item will be destroyed or not.

Now if it is matter of survival, essentials such as food, water and medicine are understandable. Nothing else is under any condition. It’s still stealing.

Hey, I didn’t say anything about shooting anyone over it.

It’s not the material object I’m focusing on. It’s the behavior of stealing things that aren’t yours and aren’t aiding in your survival.

[quote]
I feel very sorry for the cop who was shot in the face. Last I heard, he is alive and is doing ok. I hope that is the case. [/quote]

I feel sorry too and I hope he is ok as well.

91

[quote]KombatAthlete wrote:
Most of the stuff will be destroyed by water if it is left in the store (that’s what I have heard at least). Why not let someone try to get it instead of no one using it? Taking advantage of a situation is nothing particularly bad, that’s how life happens. It will be paid for by an insurance company and is of no loss but to some fat cat insurance company.[/quote]

This is morally wrong now matter how you try to justify it. I can’t believe the words you actually wrote in your post “take advantage of a situation”. It’s ok to “take advantage of situations” when something bad has happened to you. I don’t think so.

So when we had the riots out in Los Angeles years back I should have joined in and took as much crap as possible, right? I mean the stuff was going to be stolen or destroyed by someone else, right?

Where does this logic stop? Do I understand why it is happening? Yes. This is not a strawman argument by the way. This is a legitimate discussion point. It’s not ok to steal stuff that is not yours. I don’t care if your poor, broke, lost everything, it’s still doesn’t give you the justification to steal what ever you can get your hands on.

92

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I think you can pretty easily separate the looters into two categories: those taking food and medicine, and those taking jewelry and electronics and other high-value (economic value anyway) items.

Of the former, it is easier to understand their motivation.

Of the latter, I would not hesitate to call them animals. But I guess it’s what one would expect when you combine people who are none too bright with the kind of ideas that are preached to them over and over: namely, that corporations are evil and that they (minorities, poor, etc.) are not part of society and that society is biased against them. It’s not much of a stretch for them to combine that idea in their minds to come up with the idea that they are 1) entitled to other people’s things and 2) that anyone who actually owns more and better things than them probably got them through oppressing the little people and thus deserves to have his/her/its property stolen.

You cannot be surprised if those ideas are the crap they are fed, and what they believe.

A side note: I heard reports that inmates were released from prisons. I don’t know if that’s true or not.

[/quote]

are the looters any worse than corporate execs stealing millions from companies and then letting them fall apart? enron execs, martha fuckin stewart, so on.

puh-leez, unfortunately, it is in some people’s nature to be grimey leaches on the work of others. they dont conform to a particular group (economically, socially, racially, whatever.) a bit ignorant IMHO.

i have never heard winnona ryder(sp?) called an animal.

93

[quote] Agreed. People are dying in this and we get to hear about how many of you would grab a shot gun to stop someone from stealing a tv in these conditions?

I would love to see how self righteous everyone would be in these same conditions. Talk is cheap.[/quote]

Oh man . . . can we be more out of touch? Here’s a clue . . . looting is wrong. It’s against the law. I don’t give a hoot what the excuse is. It’s wrong because it unravels the thin fabric we call “society.”

We’re seeing it happen! It starts with looting a Walmart for food . . . then it’s a TV. First looting an empty house . . . then it’s a house with people in it. It starts with looting . . . and it ends with arson, rape, murder and anarchy.

The looters are looting because there is no LAW. Get it? So with no law, there’s no compulsion to behave with any civility. There’s no compulsion to respect life, property, etc.

So, yeah, rack the shotgun and shoot a 15 year-old hauling a TV out of the Walmart. Shoot the woman pushing the grocery cart full of clothes. Hang the guys breaking into the liquor store.

It’s not about the TV, clothes or booze. It’s about re-establishing law and order and preventing the city from slipping into anarchy.

Damn . . . have we wallowed so long in moral relativity and liberal social bullshit that we no longer understand this very basic concept?

It took 500 years for Western man to be able to walk down a city street in daylight without a fear of being robbed and murdered. The evolution of law and order in European-American cities was a long, painful process.

Sounds like some of you are ready to piss it all away the first time that order is tested!

94

Boy has this thread gone downhill.

First lets discuss the race issue here. Regardless of what you see most people are not looting. It is a few idiots.

I remember a story by a police officer, (and a fairly old story, back to the 60’s or 70’s) where he repeatedly transferred to different precincts. He heard the same comment over and over.

When he was in the black communities he was told, “Those Blacks really commit a lot of crimes.” And when he was in Italian communities, he heard, “Those Italians really commit a lot of crimes.”

Guess what. The same comments were made in Chinese communities, the Mexican communities, and a few other communities also.

The reason you see Black looters is because there are a lot of Blacks in those communities.

Now about the looting, my problem is not only are they steeling, but they are trying to profit or benefit on other peoples misery.

Soon there will be a group of people descending on New Orleans saying they will clean up, or repair their houses, take the money, and run. These people are exactly the same.

When a person screams, “I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!” These are the people who will run over and empty their wallet.

This thread was started because of absolute and total disgust at the actions of a few scum. Anyone heard of the looters trying to break into a children?s hospital? Think about it. What would happen if a child dies because a looter took his medicine?

This is not a majority of people there. It is just the scum of the earth. Another problem is the fact that they are just multiplying the damage there.

Did anyone hear the person who was interviewed who said it was ok to do this because the cops were not in the area stopping them?

Yes human life is more important to deal with, but I can still complain about this crap. I think this is a little worse then the guy curling in the squat rack.

95

[quote]UB07 wrote:

are the looters any worse than corporate execs stealing millions from companies and then letting them fall apart? enron execs, martha fuckin stewart, so on.

[/quote]

Are they worse then rapists or child molesters? Wouldn’t it be better to stay on topic instead of brining in every single problem as if it somehow justifies the action.

If I get a speeding ticket, bringing up the BTK killer doesn’t get me off the hook.

96

[quote]Professor X wrote:
carpenter480 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
WhiteLable412 wrote:
WTF is wrong with people. in comes a big hurricane, destroys houses, floods citys, kills people, cost billions of dollars in damages. then there are people running around smashing stores and stealing things. Fuckin animals

Who is doing most of the looting?

good point

Is it? Or could it be that they are filming mostly the poorer areas of New Orleans?[/quote]

They’re spreading to all areas now. Besides, that entire state is poor. Which might explain why they have the largest prison population in the country.

97

As a business major im not trained to sort through all of these philosophical arguements, but rather to know when to act or not act. I saw that if you tried to loot my store, you might find me in a nice dry spot w/ a shotgun in one hand and a good novel/flashlight in the other. These business owners should have retained security ( esp considering the risk they are taking from being in NO in the 1st place ) to watch over their businesses or at least be willing to camp out until the city is functioning again.

I did get some humor in a cop aiming a shotgun at some guy’s face and telling him to drop the stuff he was looting.

98

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I think you miss the point? The ENTIRE CITY IS BEING EVACUATED FOR MONTHS. For ANYONE, you, some cops, the people stealing or even store owners to be concerned about some electronics that will be sitting in the open elements for months on end is retarded.[/quote]

Uh, was it not you who just finished writing that most of these people have no idea what’s even going on since there’s no power? They have no way of knowing that the electronics they’re STEALING will be sitting in the open elements for months. Ask yourself why you’re going out of your way to justify bad behavior.

Right, when people expressed outraged over the stealing of electronics, they were talking about flashlights and radios, not fucking 42-inch plasma TVs. I can see how it would be difficult to figure that out since nobody gave an itemized list of what they deemed acceptable for stealing.

And there we have it. This is the type of mentality that leads to looting, for those who asked the question, “how can people do this sort of thing?” There’s always somebody ELSE to take the slack, right? “Oh, the insurance company can pay for it.” They have money trees that they go pick whenever somebody steals or commits insurance fraud, after all.

Besides, fuck all that. Whatever happened to having some god damn integrity?

Fucking disgraceful, bro.

99

People expect the looters to be black. Be honest. Really though, everyone I’ve seen who hadn’t evactuated were black. Probably didn’t have the means. The only ones who should be shot though are the ones with guns, threatening and shooting people, but they know the cops will shoot back. I don’t think it will be hard to round up the criminal looters once the police, military, etc. get the regular people out and try to restore order. I think they are focusing on saving lives rather than saving fubu shirts, or picking up dead bodies for that matter, and from what I hear the police are disorganized and have lost a lot of equipment. I heard a joke. I guess Germany and England are going to send assistance. Mexico wants to help too. They want to send over a few million people and they say they’re good at wading through water.

100

Ok let’s back off a bit here and look at the fundamentals.

  1. The function of law enforcement in a situation of civic breakdown is to maintain order. This can mean using force to prevent looting from taking place, including deadly force if there is an immediate threat to life.

  2. The function of law enforcement is not to punish. Whatever we may feel about the looters at a visceral level, the appropriate response is to apprehend and put into custody. Prosecution and punishment is done by other government functions.

  3. As far as I am concerned, it does not matter whether someone is green with blue stripes, white or black. It takes no time at all, in a situation of civic breakdown, to create a mob anywhere in the world. Civilisation is a very thin veneer and if the dam breaks, you get Serb/Bosnian, Hutu/Tutsi situations very quickly. This is why, while I sympathise with someone trying to get water and food by breaking in, I still come down on the side of preventing it.

  4. I sometimes fell the word “they” should be expunged from the language.

  5. That being said, if it was my family, hell I would be breaking in in two seconds.