[quote]Loftearmen wrote:
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
[quote]Loftearmen wrote:
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Do you not have any reasonably experienced 6’+ guys fighting a standup style at light heavy (boxing-12st10) or above? I know you’re obviously a big strong guy, but aren’t you only 6’1 or something? Not like you’re working the crazy reach of a Kiltschko kind of fighter. I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way, but I’d be very surprised if any half decent light heavy and above fighter couldn’t school you any way they wanted to at this stage of your development. Anyone who’s 6’+ and over 175, with a good level of competition under their belt, should have the skills to work with you and help you improve. If you don’t have those kind of guys in your gym, then I sympathise, and in another month or two it may be time to start talking to your coach about looking elsewhere for sparring. Again, I don’t mean that in a disparaging way, but if I put any seasoned fighter at light heavy and above in the ring with you, I’d be watching them to make sure they didn’t hurt you, not really the other way round at this point. I’m sure you are able to take a good hit, from your size alone (if nothing else), and dish them out too (again, even leaving technique aside), but a good amateur or a pro of decent size would still have the skills to really hurt you pretty much at will at this point in your fighting career. Obviously as your skills improve, that could change more quickly than it would for a smaller fighter than yourself.
Edit: if you can’t get the sparring in your own gym, I can guarantee you any decent boxing gym in your area will have half a dozen guys at least who’d be happy to fight you. It may not be ideal for Muai Thai or whichever style of standup you are favouring, but quality ring time with real fighters is the biggest part of improving as a fighter. If everyone is running away from you, they are a bunch of pansies and it doesn’t sound like a gym full of fighters. I know loads of 135lbers who’d still stand and go toe to toe with you, just because it is in their DNA. Again, this is no reflection on you, you can only do the best you can with what you have. But you’re a good dude with a great attitude, and it’d be a shame if you weren’t making the progress your efforts deserve because you aren’t training with the right guys. [/quote]
I agree with everything you just said. I’m new and I should be going home with black eyes, especially because I’m terrible at defending myself (I don’t get any practice defending myself because people won’t get close to me). There are 2 guys at my gym who are pro mma fighters but they both fight at about 135 and would rather not spar with me. This is probably mostly do to them not wanting to waste their time sparring with a newbie when they have a career to worry about and their training has to count. Having the ability to go the ground makes a big difference too. A boxer who is fast isn’t going to have an issue slipping in, sticking me with a few punches and dancing back out before I can hit him with a punch but if he has to worry about me doubling him, slamming him on his back and laying 300+ lbs of sweaty dude on his chest while applying an Americana or a hand triangle he’ll be less likely to want to fight with me. Going to the ground does make a big difference but, again, a seasoned MMA fighter in the light heaviest could still make quick work of me even if I got him on the ground (although, he’d have an easier time doing so while standing).
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To play devils advocate slightly, I don’t actually believe a beginner should be going home with black eyes, at least not regularly. I am from the school of thought that likes to see a total mismatch in sparring initially, in the sense that I like beginners to be put in with seasoned guys initially, so that they can work their skills and techniques in a controlled environment. A good fighter can just use you to work on specific defenses and aspects of his game. He can also control his power and hit you just hard enough that you don’t keep making the same mistakes. In return, the whole thing doesn’t turn into a dick swinging contest between two new guys who forget technique and the fact that they are meant to be helping each other improve, and instead just start swinging for the fences.
In my opinion, that is the kind of sparring partner you need. What you don’t need is some little bitch who just runs away all the time.
I do take your point about kicks and takedowns, but it ought to be possible to work specific aspects of your game without needing to work all of them at once. For example, yes, if you were up against a light heavy weight boxer and he was playing by boxing rules, and you by MMA rules, then sure, maybe you’d take him down. But as the beginner, where does that leave you? You’ll just resort to that all the time because you can, and because you know you can’t match up in stand up. BUT, if you remove the other facets of MMA, and force yourself to play by his rules, suddenly you have no choice but to get better at standup.
This goes to a larger point about lower level MMA competition. I’m talking purely from outside observation here, but a lot of low level MMA fighters tend to be pretty shit, compared to the level of guys of equivalent experience who have focused on just one discipline. I don’t think it’s as simple as saying that they are jacks of all trades so have mastered none. I think a lot of the problem is that MMA gives you a lot of opportunity to ignore the things you’re not good at. Don’t like being punched in the face? No problem, just grab the guy and roll around on the floor. Shitty wrestler? Just jab, kick and run. I don’t think it is a coincidence that most (all?) of the higher level MMA fighters, certainly the ones I know, train in specific gyms for specific arts, and then maybe only dedicate one day a week to putting it all together as ‘MMA’. So they might do BJJ at a BJJ only gym two nights a week, Muai Thai 2 nights at a Muai Thai gym sparring exclusively in Muai Thai, one day doing boxing/wrestling at a specific gym, and then one day putting it all together making sure they can transition between the arts.
I understand that many MMA gyms have coaches for all the different arts, but it flat out isn’t the same. You don’t have the level of competition for a given art as you would if you just went to a gym that trained only that art. So all of the fighters are less good, and the need to improve to be competitive isn’t as great, because, well, you can always just tell yourself you’re a wrestler not a striker.
I’m not saying any of this is directed at you, more at the MMA gyms in general. I don’t know what the quality of fighters is like at your gym, other than the two 135lb pros, but it may well be that you need to go to different gyms to get yourself the sparring that your hard training deserves. [/quote]
I missed this comment somehow. I think you are right about this. The gym I go to produces really good grapplers but the kickboxers that are good all have previous training in another striking discipline. It would be great if I could go to a MT gym to train but it’s not in the cards right now, unfortunately.[/quote]
That stands to reason, and supports what I was saying I think. It isn’t a knock on grappling arts, I’ve done some BJJ and it is exhausting and 100% legit as a combat sport, but it is flat out easier to be a good grappler than a good stand up fighter, because of the whole getting punched in the face thing, and the fact that noone likes repeatedly being struck. Where the option to get good at one or the other exists, most people will pick the path of least resistance, and go with the sport that doesn’t involve taking 50/60 shots a round. It’s only the really disciplined/genuinely motivated guys who will then seek out the striking arts.
Ok, to be constructive, possible plan of action since you can’t go to specialist gyms currently.
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You say there are good kick boxers at your gym. I take it these are legit guys with a history of competition?
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How many of them are there?
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What weight classes are they in?
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How often do they train at your gym?
Perhaps part of the problem is that they haven’t, despite their prowess, been exposed to time in a ring with a bigger bloke. Maybe, despite being the new guy, you need to be the one to seize the initiative. Fighters tend to be decent blokes, and ought to be responsive to a humble request for help.
Perhaps the way forward is to ask if they will help you work on something quite specific, such as defensive footwork. That way, these smaller guys can work with you, and work their offensive abilities with impunity, whilst you work on something you’ve acknowledged you’re not very good at.
This would give them the opportunity to realise that it is possible to work very comfortably with a bigger guy, without suffering injuries that set back your training.
The danger with bigger beginners, from a competitive athlete’s point of view, is that they don’t necessarily know how to control their power. Because of this, if you land a full power kick on a 170lb guy who is just trying to work with you, not hammer your arse, then he is quite likely to end up injured or set back. It’s not worth the trade off.
For example, one of the few guys I’ve ever put down deliberately in sparring was a big chap, probably late twenties (I was still only 18), and a serious weightlifter (meant nothing to me at the time so I’ve no idea on what type/lifts) and clearly a heavy juicer. Suffice to say that I was a middle weight and he was 100 and something kilos. He wasn’t a bad bloke, but because of his size and his whole world was about ‘being big’, he didn’t really get how to spar at less than 100%. I tried working with him, but again, he didn’t seem to recognise that I was going easy, and he was to try to do the same, so everything he did was about trying to hunt me down and take my head off. For my own safety, and as a reaction to immediate danger, I hit him with a couple of hard liver and kidney shots, and he went down. I’ve seen similar things happen quite a lot over the years, so it’s up to you to show them that despite your size and strength, you know how to reign it in.
By inviting them to work with you in such a way that they can’t get injured by an error of judgement on your part, you can start to build some trust, and over time they will realise that they can work positively with you. There are lots of things a smaller guy can use a bigger guy for constructively, and it’s partly up to you to show them that.
Your coach also ought to be facilitating this process. It’s critical that you are able to get something constructive from sparring, even if, ironically, it means doing a scaled back version of sparring for a while, as for now it sounds like your sparring is substandard and will leave you frustrated.