Lo/Rez Training

Training Training Logs
621

So do you even want me to respond?
Because you seem to have a rebuttal to everything I say. I made some suggestions in regards to your shoulder impingement issues and what I have seen to help. You keep coming up with one thing after another of why it won’t work. If you don’t want to give it a try, please feel free to disregard it.

There are certain things where I can explain MY reasoning behind them, but it seems like we are on different ends here, e.i. half kneeling work; rows in this example, I feel as though in a half kneeling position, all leg drive or any other momentum/compensations are eliminated and thus it helps to really isolate the back somewhat. I also made the assumption (from your video) that you lack anterior core strength, you were in anterior pelvic tilt. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but I was only trying to be helpful. It seems to me as this has become a bit of a pissing match, again if you don’t like my reasoning to certain stuff, please do ignore it, if I’m taking up your log space my apologizes.
You keep “bashing” half kneeling stuff,

You said:
"With respect to the lats you can tweak form on a few of the movements (chop, cable row), but by the time you had adequate resistance, the “half-kneel” would be the limiting factor… not the lats.

So no, the lats are not really addressed."

I’m not arguing with you on that, if you feel that the lats are not adequately addressed, then you know what they are not adequately addressed because you know your body better than me. People that I know can get the work done with a band or 40-60 lbs resistance, but if you feel like that is not adequate resistance than your right.

You feel as though there is not adequate “volume” (I assume), but I feel otherwise based off my experience, and in that regard to an extent the volume is a bit down, why because you have been doing a fair a volume, and I wanted to start you off easy and build from there, there are very few pressing movements or squatting or pulling, why because I wanted to see how you handle it, how your body feels to it, what hurts, what is pain free.

There is plenty of stuff that we can go back and forth on, but for the sake of your log, I and others would rather see you making progress on your lifts.

Best of luck man.
Stay strong

622

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:If I may… a few questions:
Why “inverted row” instead of “cable row”, “bent-row”, “pendlay row”, “chest-supported row”?[/quote]

I rather get the same benefits form bodyweight movements before having to add external resistance, get more done with less, right?
Again no barbells or anything that has your arms, shoulders in a fixed position.[/quote]

And yet the inverted row has your arms in a fixed position. Unless you specifically meant using rings or TRX (you didn’t mention).[/quote]

An inverted row is a somewhat closed chain movement. And a TRX or rings would be better in my book.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I agree in principle with the idea of “if you can get the same benefits from bodyweight without adding external resistance”, but I can bang out far more than 8 of these at a time. If you can do more than 30+ reps with something, why artificially restrict it to 4x8?[/quote]

Add resistance to it, elevate your feet, tuck your knees, wear a weight vest, and if by then your lats aren’t growing . . .

[quote]LoRez wrote:
The reason I asked about the other movements is because they can be progressively loaded very easily.

[quote][quote]LoRez wrote:
Why “half-kneeling cable external rotation” instead of “prone db external rotation on an incline bench” or even “cuban presses”?[/quote]

From experience people cheat less on these than cuban presses. And because not enough people spend enough time in the half kneeling position. Correct me if I’m wrong but you said something about sitting at a desk? Half kneeling is an excellent cure for that.[/quote]

That seems like a weird justification. I mean, standing one-foot on a bosu ball will definitely help with balance, but that doesn’t mean trying to do DB push presses while doing that adds additional benefit. To me, that’s what it sounds like you’re trying to do here… to modify a movement, increasing the complexity in the pursuit of multiple goals, but not really adequately achieve any of them.[/quote]

How a bosu ball comes into play I have no idea.

[quote]LoRez wrote:

Makes me wonder how much your hanging out on your passive restraints. Are your planks like the RKC hardstlye planks?[/quote]

No, but you didn’t specify that.[/quote]

And I just asked you, it was a question, not a statement.
So does that mean that your planks are different from the RKC planks? Well can you hold RKC planks?

[quote]LoRez wrote:

Not sure how you want me to respond to that.[/quote]

It was a genuine question. A large number of the movements in the proposed program seemed to be targeting strength and stability through the core.

In my own experience, I’ve found I found windmills, as well as side and bent presses (but I didn’t include these due to my current shoulder issues) to be excellent for that goal. Likewise for the “around the world” and “figure 8” drills with a kettlebell, around and through the legs, respectively.

Considering you seemed to be well versed in bodyweight and kettlebell movements (based on reading your dialogue with furo), it surprised me you didn’t include these movements.

Just for reference, I spent a long time doing bodyweight drills from The Naked Warror, and KB stuff from RKC and later ETK… and then later spent a few months practicing yoga… so a lot of planks and unilateral body movements don’t really seem to be a big deal to me. Stuff like loaded pistol squats and one-arm pushups really aren’t a challenge.[/quote]

I don’t see why you need a windmill or figure 8.

And the naked warrior teaches tension, which is not what I saw in your video. Maybe I saw it wrong.

623

Maybe a more productive approach?

I think a few steps were skipped, which is why we’re not seeing anywhere near eye-to-eye.

  1. You asked me to try a few things, and to try making that video.
  2. You saw some things in the video, you reached some conclusions based on where I was and wasn’t feeling pain.
  3. In your mind, you had some basic strategies of how to address those. Some principles, concepts, ideas.
  4. You built a program based on your experience applying those principles.
  5. You shared that program.

Steps… 2-4, I don’t have. (RE: 2, You did enumerate a few things you saw in that video, but especially with the things I tried for my shoulder, you didn’t share your thoughts.) So all I have to work with is 5, where there’s a ton of points of disagreement… but we’re also approaching it from two very different angles.

So maybe if we could work backwards a bit? Or, even, work forward from the videos and ‘tests/drills’ you had me try.

In the video you’ve mentioned some APT, an apparent lack of tension, and my neck and head being forward. From the push up plus movement and my description of when/where it’s painful with the lateral raises… you reached some conclusions (you said “I’m seeing some things”, or something like that)… but you didn’t share them.

I’d like to know what you saw, and the conclusions you’ve made, or theories you have at this point.

And then I’d like to know what your general strategy is for addressing those issues. I’m interested more in the concepts and ideas; I’ve already seen one implementation.

And once we’re there, maybe there’s a way to implement those concepts in a way that still fits in with my other training goals.

Because the truth is, if you wanted me to run that program as-is, I’d be very non-compliant. So I think it would be better to reach a point where it’s something both of us agree on and where I’d actually take it seriously.

–

Now, personally, I don’t really believe the APT is as significant my reduced thoracic mobility.

Also, I don’t believe that video was a great example of maintaining tension, and I think a good reason you didn’t see that is because the weights were still pretty light for me. It took 5 or 6 tries before I found an angle with the video I liked, and I’d already trained my presses by then.

When I do my worksets tomorrow, I’ll take video and post one of those. That will be a much more fair example, even though it’s still light. On that note, I might actually just record a fairly heavy set now that I have the video angle figured out.

624

[quote]young n wrote:
I don’t see why you need a windmill or figure 8.[/quote]

Based on your training experience and knowledge, that’s what you think.

Based on my training experience and knowledge, I don’t see why you’d need any of the half-kneeling movements, bear crawls, bodyweight work (inverted row, push-up variations), planks, unilateral leg work, reverse crunches or glute bridges.

I don’t think it means either of us are necessarily wrong.

For what it’s worth, we are in agreement with the front squats, hamstring work (although, I’d just use ATG back squats unless a quad or hamstring imbalance needs addressed), snatch-grip deadlift movement (although, I’d do it from the ground – but I also have the flexibility and balance to do that and you don’t know that), prone "Y"s, curls, triceps pushdowns, farmers walks and conditioning (just not yet).

I’m going to guess that you were using the reverse crunch + glute bridges to address the APT specifically, and the planks and anti-rotation work to address the lack of core tension you saw. But I don’t know, and you didn’t really explain.

625

Yeah your right, but those strategies that I listed a few a posts/pages ago, about the not letting the elbows go past the torso and initiating the rows with your posterior delt and whatever else I listed. Give those a try in the meantime. Regarding me making assumptions, well thats how I do it. I’m sure there is a way for me to asses you via the internet, I’ll just have to figure out a way. You got to remember that being in person and being able to touch/palpate a client is much different than doing it via the webz. I can’t tell you squeeze this or that when I’m trying to see/figure out if your compensating during a movement.
And no I don’t want you to run that program, that was an example, actually a very very similar template that has been used.

Stay strong

626

All right, I don’t know entirely know what happened yesterday. Sorry about that.

I filmed a heavy BTN press today. I think this is a lot more instructive. This was at 125, versus the 75 lbs in the previous videos. I guess that would mean the 75 lb presses were less than 60% of 1RM… too light to really see weaknesses and whatever.

Couple things I noticed…

  1. my core is quite a bit more solid (since it has to be)
  2. the APT is greater than I thought it was
  3. my thoracic spine seems pretty decently extended; none of the kyphosis I used to have
  4. my cervical spine could use some work
  5. I could really use a haircut and shave

With respect to the APT, you’d recommend working on glutes, and abs, and stretching the psoas?

With respect to the cervical spine, any suggestions? It doesn’t look (to me) to be due to anything happening lower. Other than “neck exercises” (bridges, neck harness), what can you even do about this? I don’t even know how you’d possibly stretch the front side of the neck, nevermind safely.

627

Regarding the cervical spine positioning and such…

I have chronic ENT-related issues, and after trying a few neck retractions, it basically limits my ability to swallow properly. Likewise, I have to sleep on 2-3 pillows at night to encourage proper sinus drainage. This might be one of those things that has to be left alone.

–

Moderate-Incline Bench from Pins
95, 135, 155 x warmups
165 x 5, 5, 8

I had more in me, but my elbow started to hurt at rep 7. I’ll stick with a 2.5lb increase next time.

All three sets were PRs, since I’d only done triples with 165 in the past.

No BTN presses for reps. A few heavy reps was enough today.

Curls and squats later.

628

Have you tried pausing on the chest or an inch or two above it?? Way back when I was stuck at similiar numbers and a guy literally had me try 2 inch above my chest pauses and I shot right up to 205 plus… doesnt mean it will work for you. Just a thought. I now pause on the chest fyi and convinced I progress better this way…on incline only.

629

Right now I’m not able to do paused benches like that, in order to keep my shoulders good. I’m doing them from pins right now, so I do have to actually build tension and accelerate from the bottom. Not exactly the same thing, but thanks for the suggestion.

–

Squats (in oly shoes)
195 x 5 5 6

EZ-bar Curls
(bar + 35) x 3 x 10

I never returned the 2nd pair of oly shoes. These ones are still small, but I was barefoot in them and they mostly fit. I should get on that one of these days.

I don’t really know what’s up with my squats. I maxed at 285 a few months ago. I did 210 x 20. And I’m struggling with getting more than 6 reps with 195? Wtf? I’m also dealing with achy legs at night most nights, since I ran out of my magnesium supplements. Anyway, 200 next time (monday).

630

No one just wants to just go lift weights anymore and get big/strong huh

Literally if you said this shit in here to any top bodybuilder or powerlifter or strongman theyd look at you like youve got 5 heads

Why does everyone think this shit is so goddamn complicated lol

631

Wouldn’t be surprised if you’re having to get used to the shoes, plus your sleep.

632

Day 1: squat 2x5, 1x5+; lat pulldowns 10 x 10; rear-delt flyes 4 x 20
Day 2: btn press 3x12 superset with ez-bar curls 3x10 (+ maybe pre-exhaust curls or extra sets for my smaller right arm)
Day 3: deadlift 1x5+
Day 4: lat pulldowns 10 x 10; rear-delt flyes 4 x 20
Day 5: squat 2x5, 1x5+; btn press 3x12 superset with ez-bar curls 3x10
Day 6: rest

Above is your program, correct?

I guess I’m curious, why such low volume? I mean, other then lats and delts I feel everything is kind of getting lightly grazed but not really worked. Triceps, chest, calves aren’t really addressed. I know your goals are those general base strength guidelines along with that old-time BBer/Strongman look, but idk if this is the way to do it.

Sorry if I missed something, I kind of just skimmed over the stuff with young N, but I felt like some of his recommendations could easily be added to your routine, as you have a ton of room for recovery in my opinion. Just from personal experience, I think every strong, large person does more volume than this, and if they aren’t they are lifting tremendously heavy weights.

I hope you don’t see this as an attack, but I see roadblocks I’ve endured when I read your log, and just trying to offer m y 2 cents

633

About the volume, I know, right? This is uncomfortably low for me.

I was making decent progress strength-wise using a lot of volume with a lot of intensity, hitting each lift twice a week, 6-7 days a week. But the toll that was taking on my time and motivation was pretty high, and I just wasn’t feeling so good.

When my girlfriend came to visit for a couple weeks, a few weeks ago, I decided I need to spend a little more of my time away from the gym or thinking about it. Other aspects of my life were getting neglected.

So… I guess a few goals for how I want to train right now: 1) less time spent in the gym, 2) get my shoulders healed, 3) address a few weaknesses from a vanity-standpoint (arms, shoulders, lats) for summertime, 4) still progress on the core mass-building lifts.

I was just solving the problem one piece at a time. Found something for the lats and rear delts that I could do at the office gym. Found something I could do for my shoulders, triceps and biceps at home.

When the Greyskull LP program popped up in the “Great Powerlifters Routines” thread, I checked it out, and that sounded like something that would fit right in. Hence the low volume programming with the forced progression and resets for the deads and squats.

So far… with respect to the vanity goals (shoulders, arms, lats) I’m seeing decent progress. With respect to my shoulders healing, also decent progress (the high-volume lat pulldowns help). With respect to spending less time in the gym, it’s so far working. And as far as squats and deads, this is just the first week… nothing to note yet.

For the purposes of getting big or strong, this isn’t the way to go about it. But my short term goals are trumping my long term goals for the moment.

Short answer: I agree.

634

[quote]LoRez wrote:

So… I guess a few goals for how I want to train right now: 1) less time spent in the gym, 2) get my shoulders healed, 3) address a few weaknesses from a vanity-standpoint (arms, shoulders, lats) for summertime, 4) still progress on the core mass-building lifts[/quote]

Ok can I write a program to actually match all of these? Cause what youre doing right now seems like a random shitstorm

Day 1 Bench (chest/tris)
-Bench (or whatever bench you do but for fucks sake try to regular bench again) 2-4 sets x 1-6 reps (same weight, same reps for each set) and just add weight or another set or another rep every week

-Close grip Incline Bench 2-4 sets x 6-8 reps

-Skullcrushers 100 reps dont care how you get them
-Shoulder Rehab do what you feels best but nothing heavy just heal

Day 2 OFF

Day 3 Squat (legs)

-Squat 2-4 sets x 1-6 reps

-High Bar Pause Squat 2-4 sets x 6-8 reps

-Leg Curls 100 reps again dont care how
-Shoulder Rehab

Day 4 OFF

Day 5 Overhead (shoulders/bis)

-BTN Press 2-4 sets x 1-6 reps

-BTN Press 2-4 sets x8-10 reps (volume, not as heavy as the previous shouldnt be very hard but should strain slightly)

-Bicep Curls 100 reps
-Shoulder Rehab

Day 6 Deadlift (back)

-Deadlift 2-4 sets x 1-6 reps

-Barbell Rows 2-4 sets x6-8 reps (heavvyy)

-Pulldowns 100 reps

-Abs 100 reps

At least this is organized, youll spend no time in the gym practically (maybe 45 mins 4x a week?), you have your shoulder rehab, you have weakpoint training with the 100 reps stuff I dont care if you do 10x10, 5x20, whatever works. AND it actually has good movements to make progress in. I dont care if you do it but it fits the criteria and looks like something someone actually big and strong would do.

NOTE: I do not think this is the optimal training method. BUT it would work. Not the best, but by far not the worst.

635

I think you’re underestimating yourself. PlainPat just made you a solid program. But I mean on my Upper Body days I hit:

Flat BB 2 sets
Paused CGBP 2 sets
Incline DB 2 sets
Chest Flies 2 sets
Upper Back 3-4 sets
Lats 2-3 sets
Delts 3-6 sets
Biceps 2-3 sets

All in under an hour. Sometimes 45 minutes if I super-set. I keep track of my rest periods, roughly 2-4 minutes between big lifts, 30-60 seconds between everything else

636

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I think you’re underestimating yourself. PlainPat just made you a solid program. But I mean on my Upper Body days I hit:

Flat BB 2 sets
Paused CGBP 2 sets
Incline DB 2 sets
Chest Flies 2 sets
Upper Back 3-4 sets
Lats 2-3 sets
Delts 3-6 sets
Biceps 2-3 sets

All in under an hour. Sometimes 45 minutes if I super-set. I keep track of my rest periods, roughly 2-4 minutes between big lifts, 30-60 seconds between everything else[/quote]

Im with spidey here. Between my two upper days a week I get this:

6 sets of bench/bench variations
2 sets dumbell benches
2 sets dumbell flyes
7 sets of various tricep work heavy skulls and extensions
2 sets overhead presses
2 sets of speed benches (so 8 now of benches?)
7 sets of various shoulders (2 of these are more pressing work)
7 sets of various curls

Your body is gonna adapt to what you make it do. If you dont force yourself to do more youre not gonna get bigger or stronger. Also, that program I gave you SHOULD take 1-2 hours to complete every day. You should be training heavy enough that it takes that long to rest between sets but I assumed that you prob wont so itll take like 30 minutes.

I dont get the whole lets get in and out of here quick as possible… like if you really fucking wanted to get big/strong youd spend as long as you need. Youd realize that youre alive, you only get one shot, so if you really fucking want this like you say you do youll spend 3 hours a day if you have to because when youre about to die theres no going back and being like wow i really wish I spent another hour in the gym to reach my goals

637

[quote]PlainPat wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I think you’re underestimating yourself. PlainPat just made you a solid program. But I mean on my Upper Body days I hit:

Flat BB 2 sets
Paused CGBP 2 sets
Incline DB 2 sets
Chest Flies 2 sets
Upper Back 3-4 sets
Lats 2-3 sets
Delts 3-6 sets
Biceps 2-3 sets

All in under an hour. Sometimes 45 minutes if I super-set. I keep track of my rest periods, roughly 2-4 minutes between big lifts, 30-60 seconds between everything else[/quote]

I dont get the whole lets get in and out of here quick as possible… like if you really fucking wanted to get big/strong youd spend as long as you need. [/quote]

I don’t see him saying “get in and get out as soon as possible.” He basically said that training was sapping his energy and motivation so he decided to switch things up. What’s wrong with that? It’s like when golf season would end for me. For up to 6 weeks after season was over, I might only hit a ball once a week because it was just mentally and emotionally taxing. I might take even more time off if season ended poorly.

638

I’ll be honest, I’m pretty tired of thinking about this stuff at this point.

I spent the last several days reading pretty much everything I could find on Greyskull LP, Greyskull Powerbuilding, Greyskull LCI, and a few other things. Nevermind reading a lot of stuff on here.

Regarding the “too much time in the gym” thing, I was spending 45 minutes to an hour in the gym as is, getting in around 25-28 sets. The bigger problem was I was doing that 5-7 days a week. Even though I switched to a squat focus in February, this has been pretty consistent if I’m in town and not sick for a long enough time that I’m just worn down.

I’m craving a change and a break more than anything.

Now, granted, what I came up with was pretty hackneyed. I found a couple solutions to smaller problems (high-rep lat pulldowns, 3x12 BTN presses, and a way to do progressive rear-delt work) and tried to piece it together with some real work on squats and deads. Half of the problem is equipment limitations… I can’t do machine rear-delt flyes or pulldowns at home… I can’t do squats or deadlifts or bench pressing at work.

Pat’s program is pretty solid. My biggest problem, and it’s because I’m a little slow, is I’m “convinced” I’m too much of a beginner strength-wise that I think I need more frequency than once a week.

GSLP looks like this:

Every 2 weeks:
Bench 3 times
Press 3 times
Squat 4 times
Deadlift 2 times

It’s all about setting either a weight or rep PR every workout.

2 sets of 5. 1 set of 5+. Increase the weight every session (2.5 for bench/press, 5 for squat/dead). Reset by 10% and set rep records when you fail to get 3x5.

Additional suggestions per the actual program:
Curls every bench day
Weighted chins every press day
Bodyweight chins throughout the day, every day

After I realized I can do heavy-ish presses without it hurting my shoulders (see video above, and the fact that I wasn’t hurting today), that’s probably really close to what I’ll do.

And yeah, ab work, skullcrushers and hamstring work (RDLs if at home, leg curls if not) will probably get tacked on.

But right now, I’m just tired of thinking about this.

639

[quote]PlainPat wrote:
I dont get the whole lets get in and out of here quick as possible… like if you really fucking wanted to get big/strong youd spend as long as you need. Youd realize that youre alive, you only get one shot, so if you really fucking want this like you say you do youll spend 3 hours a day if you have to because when youre about to die theres no going back and being like wow i really wish I spent another hour in the gym to reach my goals [/quote]

You’re right.

Here’s what was important to me. I wanted to be an awesome piano player. I spent 15 years focusing on that before I got to where I wanted to be and got burnt out.

I wanted to be a successful software engineer. I’ve spent 25 years doing that.

I wanted to have a solid base for most realistic SHTF scenarios (e.g., job loss), and I’ve spent years making sure I had that.

I wanted to be well versed in history and generally well read, and I’ve been working on that for however many years.

I wanted a stable home-life and a decent relationship, and I’ve spent several years on that too.

Now, once all of that is in place…

I want to be big and strong. But all of the other stuff is more important. And what I’ve been doing in the gym has affected some of that stuff negatively, so I’m fixing that problem.

If I never really get big and strong, it’s really not something I’ll regret.

Obviously your goals are different than mine.

640

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’ll be honest, I’m pretty tired of thinking about this stuff at this point.

…

But right now, I’m just tired of thinking about this.[/quote]

Dude, I TOTALLY get that. Same thing was happening to me. I was feeling drained all the time, reading all I could about lifting, yada yada yada.

I found I was

  1. training to failure much too often
  2. over-thinking it
  3. not doing what I knew what worked

Right now I’m literally going in, doing Ed Coan’s Bench percentage on Flat and Close Grip, something similar with Incline DB’s, then just hitting the rest of my upper body however I want.

Next, I do Coan Squat and DL, then whatever leg assistance work I feel like

I take a rest day whenever I feel I need it, or life gets in the way (which has just happened to only been once in the last 2+ weeks).

I think you can genuinely have your cake and eat it too. Pick something with built in progression. Greyskull is fine I guess, but add some volume. Do more on days you feel like it. Do less on days you don’t.

I agree with you, I do better on higher frequency right now, I’ve ran BBB a few times, I like it. So I said fuck the free world and I’m running the Ed Coan program that’s like 10 weeks long in like 3-4 weeks. I’m just using weights I know I can hit, and doing as much volume as I CAN any given day.

If you like Pat’s program, run it where you hit stuff mulitple times a week. Just do Bench/Squat/Press/DL/Repeat until you need an off day. you’re already Frankensteining programs. lol.

I’m telling you dude, you’re going from a ‘overthinking/overdoing’ perspective to like a ‘underdoing’ POV, and I’ve done the same thing. The middle ground between those is where all the big guys are.

I’m not saying what you’re doing won’t work. I just want you to make as much progress as possible man. You seem like a good guy, you’re putting in all this work, you’ve Squatted 6x a week or awhile, you have a sick work capacity from all that. I’m just saying Utilize it!