Let's Talk UFC 77

Off Topic
21

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
Rich Franklin vs. Anderson Silva:

I didn’t see anything in the first fight that led me to believe that Rich Franklin can beat Anderson Silva. I’m sure he’s work on his weaknesses, but I think that Silva is better at everything. I don’t think Rich is going to make it to the end, he’ll be finished by either TKO or submission.

Tim Sylvia vs. Brandon Vera:

Tim Sylvia is going to try to keep Vera at bay with his jab and ride out a decision. Vera is going to go in for the kill. This match probably won’t get past the first round. Vera will get the TKO or submission in the first. He’s too fast, too athletic, and has much better skills than Sylvia.

Josh Burkman vs. Forrest Petz:

I don’t really know much about Petz, but after getting dominated by Karo, this is likely set up for a guaranteed win for Burkman. Burkman by decision.

These are the only fights posted on UFC.com so far. Anyone know what the rest of the card is?

[/quote]

I hope you do a little better with these predictions than you did with the previous ones. :wink: I’m just going to go out on a limb and go crazy with mine. Rich Franklin will win TKO perhaps. Brandon Vera will win, possibly by decision. Burkman better have a better strategy than just coming out and throwing overhand rights and gassing like he did in his last fight, I’ll say he wins by TKO. Now you can make fun of me if I’m wrong.

22

[quote]goatmeal wrote:
AdamC wrote:
whats’ with the Vera hype? It’s ridiculous. I just have to scratch my head. I’m not a fan of Sylvia, but I think he’s going to take Vera apart.

Vera has only demolished everyone the UFC has put in front of him. What have you seen that makes you doubt his skills?

[/quote]

I don’t doubt his skills as such, but the guy’s had 7 fights? He’s fighting a very experienced former champ in Tim Sylvia. I think a lot of guys in MMA get way over hyped and rushed to the top too quickly. Fighters should be brought on slowly, a bit more like boxing (with less padding for the record).

Who has Vera fought? Assuerio Silva is a solid opponent, granted. He caught him in a guillotine that Silva should have known better than to get caught in. But other than that he’s fought a Frank Mir who was fighting like shit, and Justin Eilers who is pretty so-so. I don’t think he’s ready and I think he must be shitting himself with all the hype he’s got.

23

[quote]goatmeal wrote:
Hey Donut62, this is kcb from over at Bloodyknux. Didn’t know you posted over here, too.[/quote]

Alfuh is here too, somewhere.

24

[quote]AdamC wrote:
I think a lot of guys in MMA get way over hyped and rushed to the top too quickly. Fighters should be brought on slowly, a bit more like boxing (with less padding for the record).
[/quote]

I agree, and I think that’s why lots of people like guys like Jon Fitch. He wasn’t on a reality show and fed cans at first to boost his popularity. He just works hard, fights anyone in front of him, and beats them.

Vera does have lots of non-MMA experience though, so the hype is somewhat justified. We’ll know for sure later this month.

25

[quote]otoko wrote:

Dropping the same hand as the kicking foot really isn’t a bad habit for Muay Thai guys, as long as you bring up the opposite elbow across your face it is textbook.
I think what he shouldn’t do is just throw low kicks without setting them up or not following them up with anything. With the size difference he could just get knocked out. Though if Rob Kaman is his coach then this all should not be a problem.
I think Sylvia should throw knees when Vera tries to engage in striking or close the distance, like Semmy Schilt does. That is if Sylvia can lift his knees that high. [/quote]

It may be textbook Muay Thai, but you still see it leading to a lot of guys getting knocked out as a result of it. Sure, you can bring the opposite hand up and/or shoulder roll the straight right, but keeping your hands up still provides better defense.

Sure, you may be able to produce slightly more force by dropping the hand, but the cost to benefit ratio just doesn’t make it worthwhile IMO.

Of course, like you mentioned there are other important factors that also add to the effectiveness of the kick (and the difficulty for the opponent trying to counter it). Positioning is very important, set point control (something you see very few MMA guys using), rhythm, etc…

Like you said if Rob Kaman is Vera’s coach then this should not be a problem though.

Good training,

Sentoguy

26

Anderson Silva vs. Rich Franklin
Silva by T(KO)
I think Rich Franklin learned a valuable lesson in the first fight, but I don’t believe he has evolved enough since then to get the title back. He’ll likely be able to survive much longer, but that’s about it.

Tim Sylvia vs. Brandon Vera
Sylvia by T(KO)
If Brandon Vera makes the mistake of standing with Sylvia he’ll get knocked out. Vera has what it takes to beat Sylvia on the feet, I just don’t think it’ll happen.

Jason MacDonald vs. Yushin Okami
Okami by decision
MacDonald’s JJ is too good for Okami to submit him, but Okami is too strong for MacDonald. It’s either Okami by decision or GnP.

Josh Burkman vs. Forrest Petz
Forrest Petz by T(KO)
Burkman looked good against Karo Parisyan, but I don’t see him taking Petz down. I see him eating overhand rights.

Stephan Bonnar vs. Eric Schafer
Schafer by submission
Bonnar will have to knock RR out fast to win this. I see Eric Schafer getting the takedown and the subsequent submission victory in the second.

I think the rest is the undercard. I hope Jorge Gurgel does well, I like that dude. Also, too bad Marvin Eastman needed surgery, he’s a fav.

/Holm

27

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
otoko wrote:

Dropping the same hand as the kicking foot really isn’t a bad habit for Muay Thai guys, as long as you bring up the opposite elbow across your face it is textbook.
I think what he shouldn’t do is just throw low kicks without setting them up or not following them up with anything. With the size difference he could just get knocked out. Though if Rob Kaman is his coach then this all should not be a problem.
I think Sylvia should throw knees when Vera tries to engage in striking or close the distance, like Semmy Schilt does. That is if Sylvia can lift his knees that high.

It may be textbook Muay Thai, but you still see it leading to a lot of guys getting knocked out as a result of it. Sure, you can bring the opposite hand up and/or shoulder roll the straight right, but keeping your hands up still provides better defense.

Sure, you may be able to produce slightly more force by dropping the hand, but the cost to benefit ratio just doesn’t make it worthwhile IMO.

Of course, like you mentioned there are other important factors that also add to the effectiveness of the kick (and the difficulty for the opponent trying to counter it). Positioning is very important, set point control (something you see very few MMA guys using), rhythm, etc…

Like you said if Rob Kaman is Vera’s coach then this should not be a problem though.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Granted, I am absolutely terrible at kicks, but I have to drop that hand a little to keep good balance when throwing the kick. I always try to bring the other hand across though. I know a lot of guys who are the same. As long as you are properly setting it up I don’t think it is a problem. Peter Aerts’s arms look like a flailing octopus when he kicks but his timing and set ups have always seemed to keep him from being punished for it.

But really, I subscribe to the BJ Penn philosiphy of punches and knees. I should have taken karate when I was little :frowning:

28

Well, if the predictions most of us made in UFC 76 are any indication, we’ll see Sylvia owning Vera and Franklin owning Silva. :slight_smile: Logic tells me that won’t happen, but I was SO wrong about the last card that I’m wary of going with the obvious.

Sylvia has managed to surprise before (beating Arlovski twice, handling Monson on the ground) and seems to be a frustrating guy to fight (which can make him a boring guy to watch). I’d take Vera, I think he has the hunger and the talent, but Timmy’s been around the block. That helps.

Rich got his ass handed to him in the most brutal display of any championship fight I’ve ever seen. That being said, it was largely due to his COMPLETE inability to handle the MT clinch. Think he may spend some time working on that? Hell yes. And if he’s able to stay free of that clinch, it may be interesting. He has the power to knock anyone out, and it only takes one. I don’t think he wants it on the ground, but who knows – Anderson is such a lethal striker, he may have to. Anyway, I take Silva, but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk.

I like Bonnar because he seems to be truly nuts. I’ll be rooting for him and Macdonald, but wouldn’t bet on either of them.

29

Sylvia didn’t handle Monson on the ground. He survived an exhausted Monson. If Monson got him down in the first round he would have been submitted in the first.

30

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
Rich Franklin vs. Anderson Silva:[/quote]
couldn’t agree more; silva is just too good

I’m assuming Vera’s has better ground game then Jeff Monson; as good/big as he is, he had problems taking Sylvia down; Vera has beaten down some good heavyweights, especially Frank Mir - that says a lot; Vera in the second

toss up, but most likely Burkman (only two losses to Karo and Fitch, top of the weight class)

31

[quote]AdamC wrote:
goatmeal wrote:
AdamC wrote:
whats’ with the Vera hype? It’s ridiculous. I just have to scratch my head. I’m not a fan of Sylvia, but I think he’s going to take Vera apart.

Vera has only demolished everyone the UFC has put in front of him. What have you seen that makes you doubt his skills?

I don’t doubt his skills as such, but the guy’s had 7 fights? He’s fighting a very experienced former champ in Tim Sylvia. I think a lot of guys in MMA get way over hyped and rushed to the top too quickly. Fighters should be brought on slowly, a bit more like boxing (with less padding for the record).

Who has Vera fought? Assuerio Silva is a solid opponent, granted. He caught him in a guillotine that Silva should have known better than to get caught in. But other than that he’s fought a Frank Mir who was fighting like shit, and Justin Eilers who is pretty so-so. I don’t think he’s ready and I think he must be shitting himself with all the hype he’s got. [/quote]

Well, I think you are right that fighters should be brought along slowly and that is what they have done with Vera for the most part. Sylvia is a step up in competition from Frank Mir, and Assuerio was a step up from Eilers, who was a step up from Scherner. People aren’t necessarily hyping Vera, but picking Vera based on the fact that whatever Sylvia is good at, Brandon is better.

32

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
Sylvia didn’t handle Monson on the ground. He survived an exhausted Monson. If Monson got him down in the first round he would have been submitted in the first.[/quote]

Monson tried to take Sylvia down in the first round repeatedly and it didn’t happen.

I’m not a Sylvia fan but the guy is a better fighter than a lot of people give him credit for.

33

[quote]Djwlfpack wrote:
Fitnessdiva wrote:
Sylvia didn’t handle Monson on the ground. He survived an exhausted Monson. If Monson got him down in the first round he would have been submitted in the first.

Monson tried to take Sylvia down in the first round repeatedly and it didn’t happen.

I’m not a Sylvia fan but the guy is a better fighter than a lot of people give him credit for.[/quote]

What’s that have to do with when they were on the ground in the 3rd round? I was talking about the ground game not takedowns/takedown defense.

34

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
Djwlfpack wrote:
Fitnessdiva wrote:
Sylvia didn’t handle Monson on the ground. He survived an exhausted Monson. If Monson got him down in the first round he would have been submitted in the first.

Monson tried to take Sylvia down in the first round repeatedly and it didn’t happen.

I’m not a Sylvia fan but the guy is a better fighter than a lot of people give him credit for.

What’s that have to do with when they were on the ground in the 3rd round? I was talking about the ground game not takedowns/takedown defense.[/quote]

“If Monson got him down in the first round (Sylvia) would have been submitted in the first.”

Well, you have to take the person down to get to the ground, unless he falls on his own. So takedown defense is a part of submission defense in a way.

Plus, Sylvia did a good job of defending Monson’s submission attempts in that third round (Monson hadn’t gassed yet, that was in rounds 4-5) and was never in danger of being submitted.

Sylvia’s submission defense is pretty good. Yea he’s been caught a couple of times, but all in all he handles himself well on the ground.

35

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
otoko wrote:

Dropping the same hand as the kicking foot really isn’t a bad habit for Muay Thai guys, as long as you bring up the opposite elbow across your face it is textbook.
I think what he shouldn’t do is just throw low kicks without setting them up or not following them up with anything. With the size difference he could just get knocked out. Though if Rob Kaman is his coach then this all should not be a problem.
I think Sylvia should throw knees when Vera tries to engage in striking or close the distance, like Semmy Schilt does. That is if Sylvia can lift his knees that high.

It may be textbook Muay Thai, but you still see it leading to a lot of guys getting knocked out as a result of it. Sure, you can bring the opposite hand up and/or shoulder roll the straight right, but keeping your hands up still provides better defense.

Sure, you may be able to produce slightly more force by dropping the hand, but the cost to benefit ratio just doesn’t make it worthwhile IMO.

Of course, like you mentioned there are other important factors that also add to the effectiveness of the kick (and the difficulty for the opponent trying to counter it). Positioning is very important, set point control (something you see very few MMA guys using), rhythm, etc…

Like you said if Rob Kaman is Vera’s coach then this should not be a problem though.

Good training,

Sentoguy

Granted, I am absolutely terrible at kicks, but I have to drop that hand a little to keep good balance when throwing the kick. I always try to bring the other hand across though. I know a lot of guys who are the same. As long as you are properly setting it up I don’t think it is a problem. Peter Aerts’s arms look like a flailing octopus when he kicks but his timing and set ups have always seemed to keep him from being punished for it.

But really, I subscribe to the BJ Penn philosiphy of punches and knees. I should have taken karate when I was little :frowning:
[/quote]

A lot of people find it easier to drop the hand in order to keep balance. And honestly it can add a little power to the kick. But it doesn’t have to be done. I can throw kicks with plenty of power without dropping my hand. It just takes practice.

I agree though that set up, timing, positioning, etc… are all extremely important and can go a long way to preventing someone from counter attacking effectively.

36

[quote]Djwlfpack wrote:
Fitnessdiva wrote:
Djwlfpack wrote:
Fitnessdiva wrote:
Sylvia didn’t handle Monson on the ground. He survived an exhausted Monson. If Monson got him down in the first round he would have been submitted in the first.

Monson tried to take Sylvia down in the first round repeatedly and it didn’t happen.

I’m not a Sylvia fan but the guy is a better fighter than a lot of people give him credit for.

What’s that have to do with when they were on the ground in the 3rd round? I was talking about the ground game not takedowns/takedown defense.

“If Monson got him down in the first round (Sylvia) would have been submitted in the first.”

Well, you have to take the person down to get to the ground, unless he falls on his own. So takedown defense is a part of submission defense in a way.

Plus, Sylvia did a good job of defending Monson’s submission attempts in that third round (Monson hadn’t gassed yet, that was in rounds 4-5) and was never in danger of being submitted.

Sylvia’s submission defense is pretty good. Yea he’s been caught a couple of times, but all in all he handles himself well on the ground.[/quote]

Incredibly I agree. I say incredibly because I am not a Sylvia fan by any means, and you won’t see me giving him many compliments. But he actually has fairly decent submission defense, and his takedown defense is quite good (mostly due to his size and strength).

I also agree with FitnessDiva, had Monson got Sylvia on the ground in the first round (in a dominant position) he most likely would have submitted Sylvia. But, like Dj said, he couldn’t take Tim down due to Sylvia’s takedown defense. The thing is if you can’t get the fight to the ground, then all the ground fighting skill in the world isn’t going to do you much good.

Good training,

Sentoguy

37

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Granted, I am absolutely terrible at kicks, but I have to drop that hand a little to keep good balance when throwing the kick. I always try to bring the other hand across though. I know a lot of guys who are the same. As long as you are properly setting it up I don’t think it is a problem. Peter Aerts’s arms look like a flailing octopus when he kicks but his timing and set ups have always seemed to keep him from being punished for it.

But really, I subscribe to the BJ Penn philosiphy of punches and knees. I should have taken karate when I was little :frowning:
[/quote]
Slightly off topic but did anyone watch K-1? Aerts looked better than he has in a while against Sefo. It is pretty crazy that this will be Aerts’s 15th consecutive year in the K-1 finals.

38

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
First person in history to call Tim Sylvia overrated.
[/quote]

This sarcasm?

39

[quote]SinisterMinister wrote:
Well, if the predictions most of us made in UFC 76 are any indication, we’ll see Sylvia owning Vera and Franklin owning Silva. :slight_smile: [/quote]

UFC 76? Try all of 2007… Couture vs Sylvia, GSP vs Serra, Cro Cop vs everyone, etc. Yet people still talk with certainty when making their picks. I agree Silva has been the better fighter lately, but to say Franklin doesn’t have a chance means you really don’t understand MMA.

40

[quote]gotaknife wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
Granted, I am absolutely terrible at kicks, but I have to drop that hand a little to keep good balance when throwing the kick. I always try to bring the other hand across though. I know a lot of guys who are the same. As long as you are properly setting it up I don’t think it is a problem. Peter Aerts’s arms look like a flailing octopus when he kicks but his timing and set ups have always seemed to keep him from being punished for it.

But really, I subscribe to the BJ Penn philosiphy of punches and knees. I should have taken karate when I was little :frowning:

Slightly off topic but did anyone watch K-1? Aerts looked better than he has in a while against Sefo. It is pretty crazy that this will be Aerts’s 15th consecutive year in the K-1 finals.
[/quote]

Aerts looked great. Bonjasky also looked very good. Bonjasky-Badr should be a great fight. Schilt though looks like he will get to the finals. The guys that I think can beat him: Aerts, Badr, Bonjansky are in the other quarter final so who ever comes out might be tired and beat up.