[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Did you never see a group of women chuckle after one has stated that in the end she will get her way with a man?
What do you think they are talking about?[/quote]
You’ve been watching too much Flintstones.
[/quote]
I have been watching too much real life.
[/quote]
Sorry I meant The Feuersteins 
Enlightening dialog between the two of you.
It seems the main point of contention is whether conscious manipulation is right or wrong.
However, if I manage to get my way in a situation, the results are the same, whether or not I was consciously aware of the power plays that happened. Maybe it happened simply due to my upbringing and training and past experience (but I was completely unaware of how it was executed), or maybe it happened because I was consciously aware of what I was doing. The result is the same. The actions to get there were the same.
If she’s genuinely not interested in me, if there’s no connection, if there’s nothing there… then no matter how well I might “play the game”, it’s not going to work out. We’re talking relationships here, which require two people to make their own choices. I can tap into some sort of primal desire of hers, but if she’s not receptive to that, she’s not receptive to it. That’s on her. It really does take two to tango.
If I go on a date and I’m trying to decide whether to shave or not shave, or which shirt I’m going to wear, or which restaurant I’m taking her to… that’s all still manipulation. I’m manipulating her perception of me by the choices I make.
And I really don’t think anyone would advocate “don’t shave if it’s not who you really are.”
I don’t think selectively controlling my timing, word choice, tone of voice, body language, is any less manipulative than picking out the clothes I’m going to wear.
If I were lying, I think it’s an entirely different thing. But I really am being honest with her.
All that being said, I’m now 98% sure she’s played me, based on stuff that happened tonight. Not necessarily that she’s aware she did it. Some of the scariest manipulations are when the manipulator is completely oblivious to their own talent. Seen that happen a few times too.
But she doesn’t know I know what I know. So this is interesting. Looking forward to seeing how she handles it. A learning experience, at the very least.
And fwiw, I’m not taking sides here. You both have valid points. I’m sharing what I think, and providing a good amount of evidence for my own diagnosis of low-grade [insert personality disorder here].
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Pass me the salt.
There, manipulation right there.
You just want one form of manipulation to be the bad kind, but then you should hate,hate,hate women and the other kinds you either ignore or you are oblivious to it.
[/quote]
Again, I repeat: bullshit.
Requesting the salt is OPENLY telling the other person what you want, and asking them to cooperate. Hardly a form of manipulation.
[quote]orion wrote:
Did you never see a group of women chuckle after one has stated that in the end she will get her way with a man?
What do you think they are talking about?[/quote]
Don’t know, but I do know that my wife has never taken that approach with me (nor I with her).
Believe it or not, we honestly express what it is that we want, and negotiate it out. Given that the other’s happiness and satisfaction is equally important to both of us, it works really well.
Maybe someday, if you ever get involved with a woman you haven’t manipulated, you can try it, too.[/quote]
Who says that manipulation cannot be out in the open?
What you are basically stating that you have to inform everyone you interact with about any conscious or semi conscious ulterior motive, and you state of mind, and your experiences that will lead you to react some way instead of another.
Thats insane.
You manipulate in some form or another.
You can choose to become better at it or you can be blind to whats going on around you, thats it.
Tertium non datur.
And dont get me started on raising kids without “manipulating”.
They wont even be housebroken by the age of 18.
[/quote]
Jesus, Orion, put down the joint and take a cold shower,
I’m honestly disappointed in you.
How can not be capable of more sophisticated thought than that?
Did those women really hurt you THAT much?[/quote]
There is this part in the Hagakure where a doctor says that he knew that things were going down the drain when medicine that was only supposed to work on women suddenly started to work on men.
I am beginning to understand how he felt.
Yes Chushin, you have hit the bullseye.
I have been hurt very, very bad which explains everything I believe to be true, especially if it makes you uncomfortable, while it is obviously irrelevant when it does not.
Standards like, does that actually work in the real world are irrelevant because what matters most is how you feel about it.
Now that you have it all figured out, why dont you slip into something nice, put a smile on your face and think happy thoughts?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Don’t know, but I do know that my wife has never taken that approach with me (nor I with her).
Believe it or not, we honestly express what it is that we want, and negotiate it out. Given that the other’s happiness and satisfaction is equally important to both of us, it works really well.
Maybe someday, if you ever get involved with a woman you haven’t manipulated, you can try it, too.[/quote]
Chushin, it sounds like your marriage is based on mutual respect and communication between two intelligent, respectful adults.
But its when you pass this healthy relationship off as either typical or inevitable (based on honesty?) that you cross the line into bewildering/idealistic territory (imo)
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
What do YOU want?[/quote]
An LTR with this girl. Not your specialty, I know.[/quote]
Too late now, but lacking her own self-professed (and preferably repeated) desire for such a thing, this is a dangerous thought-process to carry around…
It’s rather disheartening to hear how fake and manipulated life really is.
Not thats it’s applicable everywhere, but its not a “happy thought”
There was a girl two years ago who I met at a party. Saw her again a few months later, and got her number.
Admittedly, I did not give one single fuck. She was cool, and it later came to the point of me telling her I was attracted to her, but I didn’t want an LTR.
I was being brutally honest, and she couldn’t take it. She was a college cheerleader, and had an ego the size of John Goodman.
I spent a lot of time alone with her. Never had sex with her by choice, which also killed her. And eventually she grew on me.
Anyhow. I kid you not, THE DAY my mindset shifted and I decided I wanted an LTR I never saw her again.
At the time it was quite demoralizing, but its classic stuff.
No need to comment on why I didn’t take advantage because I made circumstantial choices and they were correct.
I still get texts attempting to manipulate me. I can sway her to go away by telling her what I did want, an LTR, or I can sway her become more interested by being a dick.
Slowly her teasing turned into false pretenses and straight up lies. Obviously you need a semi-psycho to apply a lot of what Orion has said, but a lot of it does pertain to reality.
I learned a lot from this and, there’s still room to learn more.
Orion: I do agree that the manipulation does exist. The fact that you admit to being extremely hurt explains your expertise (ie. Hitch Will Smith). I’ve seen that a sexy women who’s confidence stems from that is a manipulator (more than once). And I don’t believe most of these women do it purposely even if they are conscious of their ability. I wish I could think of a physically attractive women who knows she has options, but isn’t a manipulator. However, I can’t.
Don’t allow experience to filter an opinion. I try my best not to, as should everyone.
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
Orion: I do agree that the manipulation does exist. The fact that you admit to being extremely hurt explains your expertise (ie. Hitch Will Smith). [/quote]
I admit nuttin…
Wasnt there, havent seen anyting.
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
It’s rather disheartening to hear how fake and manipulated life really is.
Not thats it’s applicable everywhere, but its not a “happy thought”[/quote]
We are a hyper social species that dominates the mammal kingdom.
How nice could we possibly be?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Lanfair wrote:
Probably Borderline Personality Disorder.
[/quote]
Give the man a cigar.
Spot on diagnosis, given what you describe.[/quote]
This is funny, but also pretty sad, but I’ve gotten pretty good at diagnosing girls with that from a mile away. A bro recently got put through the wringer by a young attractive girl that I’d only met once or twice in passing, but we run in the same social circles and I’ve been able to watch how she constantly interacts with and teases and torments men. He dated her for about a month and was going on about her and I told him she sounds a lot like my ex and she might be borderline personality. He said, “Yeah, she told me she had been diagnosed with that. How the hell did you know that?” I told him there are patterns and now that he knows them he better run like Usain Bolt when he sees the red flags in girls lol
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
I’ve seen that a sexy women who’s confidence stems from that is a manipulator (more than once). And I don’t believe most of these women do it purposely even if they are conscious of their ability. I wish I could think of a physically attractive women who knows she has options, but isn’t a manipulator. However, I can’t.[/quote]
I’ve seen the same, for the most part.
I’ve also seen a few exceptions. These are the rare physically attractive girl that was in a LTR, is now out, and looking for another one. She doesn’t realize, yet, how much power she has.
I guess in a very real sense, “absolute power corrupts absolutely” is pretty applicable here.
I tend to see this in younger girls though; give them a few years of bad relationships (I use that term loosely), and the ones who survive that with their self-worth intact tend to be both attractive and genuinely ready for LTRs.
[quote]chillain wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
What do YOU want?[/quote]
An LTR with this girl. Not your specialty, I know.[/quote]
Too late now, but lacking her own self-professed (and preferably repeated) desire for such a thing, this is a dangerous thought-process to carry around…
[/quote]
Interesting you brought that up. It actually was self-professed, and oft repeated, at least in the abstract. Here and there, she’d even alluded to future times/events/activities with me. Which is one of the reasons I was reading her the way I did.
The problem, I think, is that her immediate needs – the ones that the PUAs capitalize on – are stronger than her longer-term needs, at least at her age.
As I said, it’s a learning experience.
One more thing before getting back to work…
All this manipulation is bad rhetoric is misguided.
Manipulation just is. People feel emotional responses to stimuli. Other people can provide and manipulate those stimuli, knowingly or unknowingly
In a long term relationship, if my girlfriend was having a bad day, I’d do stuff to try and cheer her up. The fact that she responds positively to physical touch… and that I gave her a hug, with the intent to have her feel better… makes me manipulative.
It’s a very real thing, and it can be used for good or for bad. If I’m in a conversation with someone and I see them starting to get a little angry or moody, and I change the topic to calm them down, that’s manipulative. If I’m in that same conversation, and I do things to keep the other person smiling and happy, and they walk away from that conversation having enjoyed it, that’s manipulative.
I’m manipulating stimuli in order to get a desired emotional response. Just because I put it into words, doesn’t make it wrong or bad or evil.
[quote]Lanfair wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Lanfair wrote:
Probably Borderline Personality Disorder.
[/quote]
Give the man a cigar.
Spot on diagnosis, given what you describe.[/quote]
This is funny, but also pretty sad, but I’ve gotten pretty good at diagnosing girls with that from a mile away. A bro recently got put through the wringer by a young attractive girl that I’d only met once or twice in passing, but we run in the same social circles and I’ve been able to watch how she constantly interacts with and teases and torments men. He dated her for about a month and was going on about her and I told him she sounds a lot like my ex and she might be borderline personality. He said, “Yeah, she told me she had been diagnosed with that. How the hell did you know that?” I told him there are patterns and now that he knows them he better run like Usain Bolt when he sees the red flags in girls lol
[/quote]
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]Lanfair wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Lanfair wrote:
Probably Borderline Personality Disorder.
[/quote]
Give the man a cigar.
Spot on diagnosis, given what you describe.[/quote]
This is funny, but also pretty sad, but I’ve gotten pretty good at diagnosing girls with that from a mile away. A bro recently got put through the wringer by a young attractive girl that I’d only met once or twice in passing, but we run in the same social circles and I’ve been able to watch how she constantly interacts with and teases and torments men. He dated her for about a month and was going on about her and I told him she sounds a lot like my ex and she might be borderline personality. He said, “Yeah, she told me she had been diagnosed with that. How the hell did you know that?” I told him there are patterns and now that he knows them he better run like Usain Bolt when he sees the red flags in girls lol
[/quote]
Hahaha
[quote]orion wrote:
We are a hyper social species that dominates the mammal kingdom.
How nice could we possibly be?[/quote]
well played
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
I learned a lot from this and, there’s still room to learn more.
Don’t allow experience to filter an opinion. I try my best not to, as should everyone. [/quote]
well said
[quote]Kakarat wrote:
I’ve seen that a sexy women who’s confidence stems from that is a manipulator (more than once). And I don’t believe most of these women do it purposely even if they are conscious of their ability. I wish I could think of a physically attractive women who knows she has options, but isn’t a manipulator. However, I can’t. [/quote]
Like Lorez mentioned, this need not be a bad. more just matter-of-fact.
Imagine if u will, growing up female and often attracting attention. Or always, in some cases.
Its a different world they’re living in, and they’re getting constant, daily reminders of that.