[quote]imhungry wrote:
“Keep swimming” is a good mantra, Alpha 
What other choice is there?[/quote]
You got it!
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
And yes, I know she’s fucked up. But these issues aren’t really implicit in who she is.
[/quote]
Oh yes, they are. They define her.
Ha, you made me laugh.
I guess I was referring to other issues that I guess I didn’t mention. Just a very mild example, she has classic adult adhd symptoms, which manifest themselves in ways that tend to piss people off, and makes aspects of relationships absolute hell for the other person. I’m the exact same way. So there’s a certain kinship on many issues, and she can be herself around me, and likewise, without excessive judgment. That’s pretty important.
As I said, I’m evaluating this as a serious relationship.
Now, I’m not excusing her current behavior. I’m not 100% sure what’s going on yet. What I do know is 5 hours ago it was time to walk away unless something changed; then things changed.
What hasn’t changed is I still think I’m too emotionally invested.[/quote]
Dude, I’ve been lurking for a while and finally made a profile just to chime in on this. Just objectively, from the way you describe her and the situation (and I know I know, you’re going to say she’s not nearly as bad as it sounds bc you can’t tell the whole situation), I would walk away and try my best not to look back.
She sounds like a pretty good description of the so-called Manic Pixie Dream Girl type that is so popular in movies for the last few years, full of quirks and manic energy that keeps you guessing. We’ve all fallen for this girls on the screen, and sometimes in real-life, but the difference is, in real-life women act like that bc there is something seriously fucked up with them. I’ll share my own experience, find the differences instead of the similarities if you like, but you could save yourself some trouble by paying attention.
My ex was like this, a total 9/10, couldn’t go anywhere without being hounded and leered at by guys, quirky, funny, spontaneous, push-pull, up-down. When I first met her she was a few months out of a long relationship and also still reeling from a dad who killed himself two years before. needless to say she was very vulnerable and guarded, which we all instinctively find attractive and want to rescue and comfort and protect.
she would show really vulnerable moments of intimacy and the next day push me away. Needless to say I fell hard and fast for her. We talked/dated a few weeks, had amazing dates, sometimes she would suddenly try to cancel at the last minute, I’d talk her out of it. It was this constant pull me in and then push me away.
Well, it drove me nuts, i pushed harder and I blew it with her spectacularly after around a month (yes there was sex before the collapse lol). I really liked this girl, but more importantly, my ego was bruised. See, I’ve always had natural game. Ever since my virginity it’s been rare that I can’t get a girl, usually my problem is keeping them once I’ve gotten them and have feelings for them and allow the power to shift. Orion and PUAs are right that a relationship is a constant low level power struggle, esp in the beginning.
Anyway, I decided
I had to get her back. For the first time ever, I even sought some advice on a couple PUA boards, described the situation, they told me after going out the way i did in such a beta manner, practically looking like a psychopath, i would never have another chance with her. chalk it up, move on. I chose not to. Instead, I had no contact with her for months. Worked on myself, went on plenty of dates, got laid a bunch, active social life, confidence is strong again. I see on FB she had surgery on her leg and is unable to drive for a few weeks.
I seize the opportunity, message her see if she needs help to the grocery since she lives around the corner, whatever blah blah. End up taking her on a couple diff errands, keep it clearly good samaritan, never bring up the past, show no romantic interest in her, talk about other girls casually, she tells me about guys she’s dated in the mean time, i show no reaction.
I do this for weeks, eventually she’s pulled in by my aloofness. I make her work for it this time, against my own instincts. I stay firm. We end up in a relationship, she loves me more than anyone ever she says. We’re going to get married one day she says. But we FIGHT. God, do we have bang-ups. You see, a lot of the vulnerability and damage I wanted to save her from were red flags I shouldn’t have overlooked.
She’s got serious shit going on and I can’t solve it for her. Probably Borderline Personality Disorder. It ended after six months with a huge fight, a lot of terrible stuff said, we still don’t speak and she hates me. Now I’ve been with my current gf for over two years, I never once backed down on shittests and power struggles in the beginning, I’m firm, I never hesitate to put my foot down and she adores me.
As for the ex, well, shes still going in that circle of push-pull and blow up failures with guys, bc her problems were much greater than situational. TL:DR Even if you switch up your strategy and act like an alpha boss and get this girl, you might seriously regret having gotten her.
[quote]Lanfair wrote:
Dude, I’ve been lurking for a while and finally made a profile just to chime in on this. Just objectively, from the way you describe her and the situation (and I know I know, you’re going to say she’s not nearly as bad as it sounds bc you can’t tell the whole situation), I would walk away and try my best not to look back.
She sounds like a pretty good description of the so-called Manic Pixie Dream Girl type that is so popular in movies for the last few years, full of quirks and manic energy that keeps you guessing. We’ve all fallen for this girls on the screen, and sometimes in real-life, but the difference is, in real-life women act like that bc there is something seriously fucked up with them. I’ll share my own experience, find the differences instead of the similarities if you like, but you could save yourself some trouble by paying attention.
My ex was like this, a total 9/10, couldn’t go anywhere without being hounded and leered at by guys, quirky, funny, spontaneous, push-pull, up-down. When I first met her she was a few months out of a long relationship and also still reeling from a dad who killed himself two years before. needless to say she was very vulnerable and guarded, which we all instinctively find attractive and want to rescue and comfort and protect.
she would show really vulnerable moments of intimacy and the next day push me away. Needless to say I fell hard and fast for her. We talked/dated a few weeks, had amazing dates, sometimes she would suddenly try to cancel at the last minute, I’d talk her out of it. It was this constant pull me in and then push me away.
Well, it drove me nuts, i pushed harder and I blew it with her spectacularly after around a month (yes there was sex before the collapse lol). I really liked this girl, but more importantly, my ego was bruised. See, I’ve always had natural game. Ever since my virginity it’s been rare that I can’t get a girl, usually my problem is keeping them once I’ve gotten them and have feelings for them and allow the power to shift. Orion and PUAs are right that a relationship is a constant low level power struggle, esp in the beginning.
Anyway, I decided
I had to get her back. For the first time ever, I even sought some advice on a couple PUA boards, described the situation, they told me after going out the way i did in such a beta manner, practically looking like a psychopath, i would never have another chance with her. chalk it up, move on. I chose not to. Instead, I had no contact with her for months. Worked on myself, went on plenty of dates, got laid a bunch, active social life, confidence is strong again. I see on FB she had surgery on her leg and is unable to drive for a few weeks.
I seize the opportunity, message her see if she needs help to the grocery since she lives around the corner, whatever blah blah. End up taking her on a couple diff errands, keep it clearly good samaritan, never bring up the past, show no romantic interest in her, talk about other girls casually, she tells me about guys she’s dated in the mean time, i show no reaction.
I do this for weeks, eventually she’s pulled in by my aloofness. I make her work for it this time, against my own instincts. I stay firm. We end up in a relationship, she loves me more than anyone ever she says. We’re going to get married one day she says. But we FIGHT. God, do we have bang-ups. You see, a lot of the vulnerability and damage I wanted to save her from were red flags I shouldn’t have overlooked.
She’s got serious shit going on and I can’t solve it for her. Probably Borderline Personality Disorder. It ended after six months with a huge fight, a lot of terrible stuff said, we still don’t speak and she hates me. Now I’ve been with my current gf for over two years, I never once backed down on shittests and power struggles in the beginning, I’m firm, I never hesitate to put my foot down and she adores me.
As for the ex, well, shes still going in that circle of push-pull and blow up failures with guys, bc her problems were much greater than situational. TL:DR Even if you switch up your strategy and act like an alpha boss and get this girl, you might seriously regret having gotten her.[/quote]
Normally I’d trim this for the sake of a reply, but it deserves the full quote.
Thank you for that. I really do appreciate the perspective. I may be dealing with exactly what you described; it’s very possible.
Now, that being said, I’m still going to pursue this for now. I’m sure you understand. I’m also about 30 or 40% sure that this is going to be an “I told you so” situation. Maybe even higher.
I have my own issues; she has hers. We’re talking low-grade personality disorder types of issues, if I’m allowed to self-diagnose here. With the adult adhd example above, I intentionally indicated it was a “mild example”. There are other things. Not going to get into it.
What I’m curious about is whether things will work better because of the degree of transparency in understanding and dealing with some of these things… or whether that will make things far far worse. For most guys, she’s probably really bad for them. I’m probably really bad for most girls. But so far, we seem to complement each other well. Twisted, I know.
As far as the situational issues, those mostly go away when the situation changes. Which is why they don’t concern me too much.
I probably shouldn’t, but I do have a history with some pretty twisted relationships. Some of those were short lived, some weren’t, but all of the really interesting ones managed to turn into very good friendships. There’s some value to being able to see through each other and understand each other. They’re the only people I trust to actually give me insight. (They’re also the only people who can actually hurt me.)
But I left that world and tried to have a “normal” relationship with a “normal” girl, and that flopped because she just never could understand me. It took us a few years [and therapy, and couples counseling] to figure that out.
I know you didn’t ask for a detailed answer to “why aren’t you just walking away?”, but I felt I should explain.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
… and she can be herself around me, and likewise, without excessive judgment. That’s pretty important.
As I said, I’m evaluating this as a serious relationship.
[/quote]
Sorry, but I don’t get how you can write this, and still be here asking the Puppet Master how you should act with her.
I’m certain that it’s naive, simplistic and “well-below” Orion’s earth-shaking insights and strategies, but here’s a suggestion:
Be honest with her.
Then you won’t have to regret not “playing the game” the “right” way if it doesn’t work out.[/quote]
In general, I’d agree with you, but can you really tell me how “being honest with her” is going to help here? On some level, this is much less about playing her, and instead, learning the right kind of self control for me. When to hold back and when not to. Which forces should I choose to act on now, and which shouldn’t I.
I can tell her I want her or I can show her I want her. I can act on something now, or I can wait a few days and act on it. I can share some aspect of my personality with her at a given time, or share a different aspect with her. As far as my behavior, it’s all been 100% honest and genuine. I don’t have to “pretend to be an asshole”, I already have that inside of me, I just choose for that to be (or not be) the dominant force at a given time.
So, really, and absolutely no offense intended, I just don’t see how that advice helps, other than serving as a thinly veiled attack toward orion.
EDIT: I’m actually pretty sure you mean it in the sense of “how about you sit down and talk with her about it and figure it out?”
In my experience, that’s great advice, when you’re already in a relationship. But it absolutely kills the attraction when you’re not in a relationship yet. And right now, that’s what this is about… figuring out how to maintain and not kill the attraction.
[quote]imhungry wrote:
Fwiw Lorez, I like your posts. [/quote]
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
Ok.
Sorry, LoRez.
For what is worth; I also really like your posts.
“Keep swimming”.
:)[/quote]
Thanks guys.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Be honest with her.
[/quote]
Girl, I wish you were not damaged goods…
I would so love to lose myself in you…
All those other guys have been dicks but I would treat you like a queen…
That is what honesty would look like at this point.
[quote]Lanfair wrote:
Well, it drove me nuts, i pushed harder and I blew it with her spectacularly after around a month (yes there was sex before the collapse lol). I really liked this girl, but more importantly, my ego was bruised. See, I’ve always had natural game. Ever since my virginity it’s been rare that I can’t get a girl, usually my problem is keeping them once I’ve gotten them and have feelings for them and allow the power to shift. Orion and PUAs are right that a relationship is a constant low level power struggle, esp in the beginning.
[/quote]
You know that you actually would not have to change much to keep them?
Depending on how old you are that will probably go away on its own.
Ah, should have read the whole post first.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Be honest with her.
[/quote]
Girl, I wish you were not damaged goods…
I would so love to lose myself in you…
All those other guys have been dicks but I would treat you like a queen…
That is what honesty would look like at this point.
[/quote]
Then he needs to work on what’s inside of him; not some manipulation game.
[/quote]
But that is a form of manipulation.
Just as you cannot not communicate, you cannot not manipulate.
Mindblowing, I know.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Be honest with her.
[/quote]
Girl, I wish you were not damaged goods…
I would so love to lose myself in you…
All those other guys have been dicks but I would treat you like a queen…
That is what honesty would look like at this point.
[/quote]
Then he needs to work on what’s inside of him; not some manipulation game.
[/quote]
But that is a form of manipulation.
Just as you cannot not communicate, you cannot not manipulate.
Mindblowing, I know. [/quote]
Bullshit.
[/quote]
Pass me the salt.
There, manipulation right there.
You just want one form of manipulation to be the bad kind, but then you should hate,hate,hate women and the other kinds you either ignore or you are oblivious to it.
Did you never see a group of women chuckle after one has stated that in the end she will get her way with a man?
What do you think they are talking about?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Pass me the salt.
There, manipulation right there.
You just want one form of manipulation to be the bad kind, but then you should hate,hate,hate women and the other kinds you either ignore or you are oblivious to it.
[/quote]
Again, I repeat: bullshit.
Requesting the salt is OPENLY telling the other person what you want, and asking them to cooperate. Hardly a form of manipulation.
[quote]orion wrote:
Did you never see a group of women chuckle after one has stated that in the end she will get her way with a man?
What do you think they are talking about?[/quote]
Don’t know, but I do know that my wife has never taken that approach with me (nor I with her).
Believe it or not, we honestly express what it is that we want, and negotiate it out. Given that the other’s happiness and satisfaction is equally important to both of us, it works really well.
Maybe someday, if you ever get involved with a woman you haven’t manipulated, you can try it, too.[/quote]
Who says that manipulation cannot be out in the open?
What you are basically stating that you have to inform everyone you interact with about any conscious or semi conscious ulterior motive, and you state of mind, and your experiences that will lead you to react some way instead of another.
Thats insane.
You manipulate in some form or another.
You can choose to become better at it or you can be blind to whats going on around you, thats it.
Tertium non datur.
And dont get me started on raising kids without “manipulating”.
They wont even be housebroken by the age of 18.
[quote]orion wrote:
Did you never see a group of women chuckle after one has stated that in the end she will get her way with a man?
What do you think they are talking about?[/quote]
You’ve been watching too much Flintstones.
[quote]debraD wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Did you never see a group of women chuckle after one has stated that in the end she will get her way with a man?
What do you think they are talking about?[/quote]
You’ve been watching too much Flintstones.
[/quote]
I have been watching too much real life.