Let's Talk Game w/ Women

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
What you describe here is being the situational alpha, if you want to use technical terms fot it and is considered to be more advanced stuff.[/quote]

It really blows my mind that this is considered advanced stuff. It’s no wonder that a person who lacks either a) enough human capital to have experienced it first hand or b) the observational skills and social awareness or to pick up on this sort of thing without it being some sort of “secret” is struggling socially.

Orion, what proportion of people do you think lack a basic understanding of human relationships?[/quote]

Girl and I just had this same conversation an hour ago. According to her, 100% of the girls she’s ever known (besides her, of course). These are your typical “I don’t know why he cheated on me” combined with “I don’t know why he wouldn’t call me after last night” girls.

How did she put it… “they just haven’t figured it out; they do for free what I do for…” and left the sentence hanging.

This is some serious breaking the 4th wall shit. Definitely my kind of girl.

(Unsurprisingly, she’s basically a female sigma.)

[quote]LoRez wrote:

(Unsurprisingly, she’s basically a female sigma.)[/quote]

The kind that does not fit in with other women precisely she wants to be a girl and be appreaciated for it?

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
What you describe here is being the situational alpha, if you want to use technical terms fot it and is considered to be more advanced stuff.[/quote]

It really blows my mind that this is considered advanced stuff. It’s no wonder that a person who lacks either a) enough human capital to have experienced it first hand or b) the observational skills and social awareness or to pick up on this sort of thing without it being some sort of “secret” is struggling socially.

Orion, what proportion of people do you think lack a basic understanding of human relationships?[/quote]

Girl and I just had this same conversation an hour ago. According to her, 100% of the girls she’s ever known (besides her, of course). These are your typical “I don’t know why he cheated on me” combined with “I don’t know why he wouldn’t call me after last night” girls.

How did she put it… “they just haven’t figured it out; they do for free what I do for…” and left the sentence hanging.

This is some serious breaking the 4th wall shit. Definitely my kind of girl.

(Unsurprisingly, she’s basically a female sigma.)[/quote]

Also, women do not need to have a clue until they hit 30 or so.

Then they are still clueless, but start bitching and whining on OKC.

But and I freely admit that I have nothing to back this up, I believe that women are designed not to get it, especially not how they really function, at least not until menopause.

Evolution does not care to create enlightened rain forest apes, it cares for procreation and if that means installing a giant blind spot into womens brains it will happily do so.

Men should be dífferent, we are the sex that is supposed to deal with reality after all, but apparently strong enough brainwashing and social conditioning can overcome that.

[quote]Kakarat wrote:
I’d be very interested in reading an Alpha/Beta thread[/quote]

Then start one.

Man up and conquer the submit button.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

The sigma one didn’t make any sense to me. Is it possible to be a different “level” in relation to men as opposed to women? Like are there guys who are beta in a crowd of men, but become gamma once a woman shows up?[/quote]

It is possible to be alpha or high beta in your relationship with men and gamma when it comes to women.

That describes me in my early 20s.

Those are the men who benefit from “game” instantly, because the moment they have their come to Jesus moment a lot falls into place instantly. [/quote]

Well I’m in my early 20’s and that’s pretty much how I’ve spent the last several years. I just got out of a 4 year relationship not too long ago though, and it was an eye opener. Hopefully I’m not going to still be like that.

I know why it happens though. Because, like many people on this site, unless I’m with my training partners, I’m by far the physically strongest person in whatever group of males I’m around. I’m definitely not the type of person who is quick to resort to violence, but truth be told, the thought is always in the back of my mind that if one of these dudes REALLY tried to push it too far, I could always just smack the fucking taste out of his mouth and there’s nothing he could do about it. Sort of like the ultimate contingency plan.

That’s not there with women though, and I think it costs me.

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

The sigma one didn’t make any sense to me. Is it possible to be a different “level” in relation to men as opposed to women? Like are there guys who are beta in a crowd of men, but become gamma once a woman shows up?[/quote]

It is possible to be alpha or high beta in your relationship with men and gamma when it comes to women.

That describes me in my early 20s.

Those are the men who benefit from “game” instantly, because the moment they have their come to Jesus moment a lot falls into place instantly. [/quote]

Well I’m in my early 20’s and that’s pretty much how I’ve spent the last several years. I just got out of a 4 year relationship not too long ago though, and it was an eye opener. Hopefully I’m not going to still be like that.

I know why it happens though. Because, like many people on this site, unless I’m with my training partners, I’m by far the physically strongest person in whatever group of males I’m around. I’m definitely not the type of person who is quick to resort to violence, but truth be told, the thought is always in the back of my mind that if one of these dudes REALLY tried to push it too far, I could always just smack the fucking taste out of his mouth and there’s nothing he could do about it. Sort of like the ultimate contingency plan.

That’s not there with women though, and I think it costs me.[/quote]

But it is there with women and that was actually the go to method of the original alpha males.

I am not saying that you should do it, but if you are not aware that you could crush her at will you are denying the objective reality of the situation.

You can be sure that at some level she is aware of it and if you play it right, it turns her on.

If…you… absolutely must youcouldwatchtwilighthowbellareactstothewerewolfguy.

I did not write this.

This never happened.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
(Unsurprisingly, she’s basically a female sigma.)[/quote]

The kind that does not fit in with other women precisely she wants to be a girl and be appreciated for it?[/quote]

Heh, you challenge me on that to explain it. Let’s see.

She knows how to be a girl. She can fit in just fine with a group of girls if it make sense to her immediate goals at hand. She’s can be pretty high in the hierarchy when she feels like playing by the rules… but again, only when she sees some reason to do it. Her ‘game’, with both men and women, is pretty impressive.

But it really is all just a game to her – and that’s the key difference. She’s naturally outside the system, but knows how to play within it when she feels like it.

Not sure if I explained that well enough.

If (really, when) things end up working out on a longer term basis, I’ll actually give some examples. Not the right time yet.

EDIT: Either what I said is true, or she’s playing me really really well. And I’d be impressed either way, honestly.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
I am still befuddled about the alpha/beta/gamma stuff, in that I would think it is highly situational and depends on what time in life it is.

I was an alpha-type in HS, the sterotypical athlete ---- but got good grades and a national merit scholarship. Got laid A LOT.

In basic training in the Army — not so much. My hand and I got to know each other a lot.

Rock climing, shooting, or riding a horse – alpha.

All fish can be a big fish. All fish can be a small fish. It just depends on the pond the fish is in.

++++++++++++++++

Regarding the whole picking up women thing, I’ve done a fair amount of picking up women in my life.

I wouldn’t know a fucking thing about picking up a girl in a club in LA, hate clubs, and probably wouldn’t try. I would be a small fish there because, well, I fucking hate that kind of place.

You just have to pick the pond where you are the big fish.

That is the most important pick up trick.

For example, I am assuming most guys here are pretty jacked. So go somewhere you can take your shirt off and not look like a complete fucktard douche – e.g., a pool, beach, chopping wood, whatever — because that is where being jacked makes you the alpha.

Next, go some place where women are seperated from their normal pack and won’t suffer from the social ramifications of getting fucked by a stranger, e.g, a vacation spot. I lived most of my life at one, but a beach or whatever fills the bill here, too.

Now, proceed to have fun doing something at the beach.

I’ve seen an old fat dude pick up women at a fast draw competition — because he’s literally the fastest draw in the West.

Pick your pond wisely.

It’s not that fucking hard.[/quote]

You know why I like your posts so much?

Because you are the prime example of a natural who has kind of an idea why it all works but doesntt bother to look into it too much because it all works naturally.

What you describe here is being the situational alpha, if you want to use technical terms fot it and is considered to be more advanced stuff.

[/quote]

I would think that any type of intelligent “alphadom” would need to be situational. When you are on your home territory or inside your own wheelhouse of competence and authority it is far more practical to be alpha than when you are on unfamiliar ground. In other words, if you have no fucking clue what’s going or if you are swimming in someone else’s pond, acting supremely confident and taking charge is likely not your best option, regardless of your temperament.

Thus it seems that we will all cycle up and down that hierarchy to a certain extent, depending on the environment and our current phase in life, our basic tendencies not withstanding. Furthermore, we owe it to ourselves to regularly engage in activities and place us in situations that take us out of our areas of strength and thus away from our alphaness. In these situations I would think a lower profile, “delta” type approach would be more appropriate.

This has less to do with picking up women and more to do with being effective in life generally.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Kakarat wrote:
I’d be very interested in reading an Alpha/Beta thread[/quote]

Then start one.

Man up and conquer the submit button. [/quote]

Readers don’t print the newspaper lol

I don’t have much to contribute but I could make one.

Boom

If you start a sentence with “How much would it cost to…” or “What would it take to…”, you’re doing it wrong.

Also, it’s worth learning how to cook a few good dishes, and to mix a few good drinks.

Now, there’s the girl’s point of view that says “I want a guy who can cook”. This isn’t about playing into that.

This is about how to get a girl over to your place, impress her, and frankly, frame control. Her impression is not going to be of your place, and not even really too much on the conversation, it’s going to be “omg, he’s cooking for me! yay!” (adjusted, of course, to her maturity level)

The same girl who might be on the edge about going out to dinner with you, will generally say yes if you offer to cook for her… especially if you tease her about what’s on the menu. It doesn’t have to be anything fancy, it just has to taste good.

Some meat with a flavorful sauce + rice/bread + vegetables is a time tested formula. You’ll learn very quickly what her taste in food is, by seeing what she actually eats and enjoys. Useful information if you take her out in the future.

Gourmet Magazine put out a good cookbook a few years back, it has a yellow cover and zero pictures. Assuming you know how to cook at all, almost anything in that cookbook turns out well if you can follow the recipe. Practice, obviously, makes perfect.

As far as drinks go, learn to make a few good cocktails. Fresh squeezed juices and homemade simple syrup make almost anything better. You don’t need top shelf liquor. Smirnoff is a good neutral mixing vodka; Gordons is a good mixing gin; for tequila, Cuervo Gold can work in a pinch, 1800 Reposado is a better choice. Bacardi for light rum; Myers for dark rum. Girls generally don’t like whiskeys, but Jim Beam will work for mixing. If you’re actually mixing cognac, you probably know what you’re doing.

(Sidenote: cognac + ginger ale + fresh lime juice + a few minutes for the flavors to settle is an amazingly refreshing combination.)

Then, a couple sweeter liqueurs are worth having around: Tuaca. DiSaronno amaretto. Nocello. And at least one orange liqueur. Cheap triple sec will work – as long as it’s mixed into a drink; never straight.

Make sure she has water. Don’t ask if she wants water. Don’t ask if she wants more water. Just take care of it. Fresh, cold, filtered, no ice.

Coffee’s a nice touch, if she likes coffee. Dessert is a really nice touch if you know what you’re doing… but it’s completely unnecessary. You already cooked dinner for her. That’s really more than enough.

Another hint: ask her to pick something up on the way over, like ice, or maybe a couple lemons or limes. I learned that by accident. There seems to be some value in having her participate in things.

Oh, and did I mention? By the end of dinner, she’s already at your place.

While some of the advice in this thread has been highly questionable to people like Debra, Emily, and Jackie… I really doubt there will be much objection to the above. Could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
If you start a sentence with “How much would it cost to…” or “What would it take to…”, you’re doing it wrong.[/quote]

How much would it cost to install mirrors on my bedroom ceiling?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
If you start a sentence with “How much would it cost to…” or “What would it take to…”, you’re doing it wrong.[/quote]

How much would it cost to install mirrors on my bedroom ceiling?[/quote]

EDIT: if you start a sentence [with a woman] [who’s not a cashier or salesperson]

If you’re ending that sentence with something like “come back to my place” or “have dinner with me” or “flash me” (actually heard that one tonight, prefaced with “how much of a tip does it take to”), then you’re doing it wrong.

But if you just say… “come back to my place” or “have dinner with me” or “flash me”, you’re much better off. Either way she’s going to say yes or no. Might as well be direct, and not even imply you’re going to offer anything in return. (And that doesn’t mean she can’t ask or request something in return, just don’t prematurely bring it up.)

I liked this thread and all the input in it, so lets keep it going. While I don’t have any advice to give I did find this write up about DHV (which i am aweful at)

35 WAYS TO CONVEY VALUE

(1) Non-submissive eye contact -no darting of the eyes when you look at her, no breaking eye contact first.

(2) Vocal Projection -the loudest guy in a group is usually the most comfortable, unstifled, and highest value.

(3) Commanding and Challenging (Breaking Rapport) Tonality -commanding authoritative tonality puts you in the same category as other high value people.

it gets her to respond in a qualifying tone, which subconsciously she rationalizes that she must like you because she only talks with people like that if they are high value.

(4) Unreactivity -not socially pinging off of the girl. Your state is not dependent on her reaction to you. Be the yacht.

(5) Who’s reacting to who more -who’s laughing quicker at the others jokes, who’s more into the conversation, who’s giving subtle indicators that they like the other. The one reacting more is lower value, similar to…

(6) Who’s more in their head, who’s not -this is the same as above but internally, things like vomiting words gets her trying to piece together the conversation. The more non sequitar, the more she is in her head trying to understand what you are saying, this is why it is so important to…

(7) Lead the conversation -you have control of what is being said. I call it channeling the river, steering the conversation in the direction that moves the interaction forward as opposed to just being a little bitch and talking about whatever just so you can keep the conversation alive.

(8) Good body language -when you feel comfortable and confident you are naturally going to take up more space and have good body language, for similar reasons it is important to have a larger…

(9) Physical presence -guys that are alpha just take up more space. You can see in a group the most alpha guy might have 2-3 feet of space between him and the next guy, where as the more stifled insecure person takes up very little space. This is also noticeable in how much physical movement you use, hand gestures and just ease of movement in general.

(10) Bringing your state from within -similar to 4 and 5, you aren’t relying on anyone or the environment to pump your emotional state, you feel good because of your own awesomeness, and the law of state transfermakes everyone happy around you as well. This relates to…

(11) Self amusement -the opposite of self amusement is reaction seeking. Reaction seeking is neediness and a low value trait. Self amusement is purely for your own enjoyment because you don’t care about anyone else and just bathe in your own awesomeness, you do not seek reactions to make yourself feel good.

(12) Stating your opinion -a high value person is more likely to state their opinion, purely because it comes from them, as opposed to a low value person who doesn’t think anyone cares what they have to say.

(13) Statements not questions -statements are always more authoritative than questions, and who knows, you might give a cold read that is accurate, you tell her she looks like a nurse and she is, and she’ll think it’s fate that you two met.

(14) Lowering the bar for what you talk about -again vomit words. The more bullshit things you say, the more it conveys that you don’t care about the interaction, or the girls response to what you say. It shows that you talk to girls like her all the time, or probably have a couple on speed dial.

(15) Conveying intent -by showing that you aren’t afraid to convey intent, it conveys that you are willing to be vulnerable and put your personality on the line, something only someone with high self esteem would feel comfortable doing.

(16) Commanding attention -don’t compromise your value just to keep her talking. If she isn’t looking at you, call her out. If she is on her phone, call her out.
A high value person assumes that when he is talking people listen.
If there is a dissonance, he takes action.

(17) Being as comfortable, or more comfortable than the girl -no leaning in to hear her, no standing while she is sitting. Get comfortable, relax, she should be excited to talk to someone as cool as you, not the other way around.

(18) Entitlement -you feel entitled to the girl. You fully assume that she is yours, and you are not emotionally affected by any response she has towards you either positive or negative. The byproduct of this is…

(19) Indifference -again, you are emotionally indifferent to her reactions towards you.
This conveys a level of abundance, in the fact that you probably have other girls, so she doesn’t have as much value to you.

(20) Lack of outcome dependence - 18 and 19 explain why you have no emotional reaction to anything she says, and this has inherent social proof/value.

(21) Authentic conversation -I talked about this last week in the spectrum of authenticity article. The more authentic and real you are, the more vulnerable you are and the more balls it takes.

(22) Full frontal positioning -none of that old skool bullshit about body rocking and over the shoulder openers. Go in direct, straight in there, face to face, and make yourself vulnerable.

(23) Passing shit/congruence tests -Alex used to say that 80% of “natural” game is passing congruence tests, and every time you pass a test, attraction goes up.

remember congruence tests are more than the obvious “Is that your pickup line?!” there are also the more subtle ones like not making good eye contact, staring at her phone, or initial unreceptivity at the beginning of an interaction. The best way to respond is by…

(24) Being unapologetic -when you go through life by your own standards, you don’t try to please people, you just tell it like it is. Some girl gives you shit, you call her out, people don’t listen,you tell them to pay attention. This is because…

(25) Don’t identify yourself based on other peoples opinions -do you see how these are byproducts of each other, somewhat overlapping? This is why it is all so powerful, it creates a web of beliefs, or a rigid unwavering belief system.

(26) Escalation -more leading here. Having that detachment from the outcome to the point where you aren’t emotionally affected if you go to escalate and don’t get it.

another way of saying this is to cultivate an…

(27) Abundance mindset -now I’ve had my fair share of virgins on bootcamp, and they always ask how they can have an abundance mindset if they obviously aren’t doing very well in the success with women category.

but it’s not abundance directly with women, it’s abundance in the fact that you have trust in your skillset to get another girl if it doesn’t work out with the one in front of you.

(28) Congruence -who’s frame is stronger, yours or hers?

whoever holds the frame unwaveringly wins, and is more congruent in how they act, knows themselves better, and trusts their own judgment over others.

(29) Non-judgemental -being judgmental of her sluttiness, or ANYTHING sort of judgment, is a sign of naivety and of someone who hasn’t seen much of the world or experienced life.

this is why travel is a great way to develop a stronger frame, life experience makes you much more…

(30) Comfortable in your own skin -this is also why as you get older, as long as you are working on yourself, you only get more attractive. You’ve experienced more in life, and when something you don’t expect happens in the interaction, you deal with it accordingly, without anxiety, without stress.

(31) Walking through the world with ease -someone that has his shit together isn’t going to be stressed.
Betas are stressed in life, worried about surviving and pissed they aren’t the alpha, while the alpha gorilla just chills back and lives the good life.

(32) Standing out, be unique -society conditions us to be average, to be beta. Throw away the stripey shirts, throw away the khakis, get a little sex appeal.

(33) Being comfortable with silence -not feeling like you need to keep talking if you have nothing to say, you are just as cool chilling with your own awesomeness, when the conversation stops for a moment, it gives you an opportunity to remember how cool you are.

(33) Dominance -what is dominance? The opposite is submission, and therefore proactively leading the interaction leads to her submitting, one way that you can show that you aren’t afraid to take a risk is by…

(34) Leading -to lead is to take a risk, if you go for it, let’s say moving her to the bar, you might not get it, and a low value person, someone not comfortable with themselves, would be afraid to try.

(35) Assuming attraction -there is inherent social proof based on how you interact with the girl. If you are interacting with her in a way that you are assuming she likes you, she will deduce that other girls that look like her usually like you as well.

One thing I would like to add:

With your voice it is not so much how loud you are, it is more about your modulation.

If your voice goes up at the end of a sentence, even though you are not even asking a question, but sound like you do, you come across as and probably are someone who is approval seeking.

As an exercise you can say out loud mere statements of facts, but make them sound like a question.

Like:

Its hot in here?

Thats a great show?

You must say it out loud to get how utterly supplicating and submissive that actually sounds like.

Do that with a woman and its over, do that with a man and you are his bitch.

[quote]orion wrote:
One thing I would like to add:

With your voice it is not so much how loud you are, it is more about your modulation.

If your voice goes up at the end of a sentence, even though you are not even asking a question, but sound like you do, you come across as and probably are someone who is approval seeking.

As an exercise you can say out loud mere statements of facts, but make them sound like a question.

Like:

Its hot in here?

Thats a great show?

You must say it out loud to get how utterly supplicating and submissive that actually sounds like.

Do that with a woman and its over, do that with a man and you are his bitch. [/quote]

Do that with a classroom full of teenagers and…

Speaking about game with women :

I have little use for the “greek alphabet categorizations” and the related tips.

I do not ask myself “how could i be more alpha or sigma ?”. But i do use my own “homemade” typology of women.
Which is based on the question :
“where does she put sex on her Maslow’s hierarchy of needs ?”

To learn more about that, you will have to read my book on this subject.
Too bad i will probably never write it.

And I’m a dumbass. Got too emotionally invested too soon.

I clearly played something wrong here. Not completely sure what.

It’s probably over; it’s her move now.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
And I’m a dumbass. Got too emotionally invested too soon.

I clearly played something wrong here. Not completely sure what.

It’s probably over; it’s her move now.[/quote]

How long did it take you to get “invested” and did you have sex before you became “invested”?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
And I’m a dumbass. Got too emotionally invested too soon.

I clearly played something wrong here. Not completely sure what.

It’s probably over; it’s her move now.[/quote]

How long did it take you to get “invested” and did you have sex before you became “invested”?

[/quote]

Check your PMs. (if only)

I’m not sure how long it took. I just noticed by how hard the rejection hit.

Rough sequence:

  1. We met we talked
  2. Ran into her again, talked, there was some “connection”, she gave me her number
  3. Several times talking with her at her work, for a few hours at a time
  4. Invited her out, spent several hours in private, talking; she opened up; attempts at physical contact were shut down… based on her past, I let it slide. This happened a few times.
  5. More time with her at work
  6. She invited herself over to my place to drink before work – skipped work, spent the night [on the couch], minimal physical contact, lots of emotional content
  7. Things slowed down for a few weeks, then she wanted to spend lots of time with me, both on the phone and in person
  8. We did that
  9. She went through her list of beta orbiters (lol at the term), telling me about each of them and repeatedly emphasizing her lack of interest; it came across as “hey, there’s really no one else, I’m interested when you are”.
  10. I didn’t act on that.
  11. A few days later, she then told me she was finally over her ex.
  12. I invited her to my company holiday party
  13. She gave me an “I don’t know if I can make it”
  14. I pushed a little
  15. She completely shut it down
  16. I said ok, and walked away

Physically things have moved very slowly. Her signals have been saying “yes, but I’m not ready yet.”

I’m not sure whether this is me being friendzoned and not realizing it until now [quite possible], or whether she’s just not ready. Or something else entirely.

But if this isn’t going anywhere, I’m done. If/when she contacts me, that’s what I’ll tell her.