Lesnar vs. Velasquez

Training
141

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
wow. what a one sided ass whipping. brock came out aggressive and throwing, but just like dana white and others on this thread have said, he cant take a punch, and his training and gameplan takes a hike once he gets hit.

watching the prime time shows, i could not help but wonder if having his own compound and being the superstar of the his own gym/training camp was a good thing. they need to bring in or send lesnar to diff trainers and sparing partners that will beat the shit out of him and make him better. pt him in with some elite level boxers and kickboxers with big gloves and head gear and teach him how to defend and take strikes, have him roll with some top level jujitsu guys and catch wrestlers who will stretch him and teach him how to work off his back and defend submissions.

at 33 years old, not sure how much better he can get, but he is such a genetic freak i think he can still be competitive in the octagon for a few more years if he works at it. his name recognition and star power can still lead him (and the ufc) to some big paydays if he trains smart. [/quote]

Yeah, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I always thought that Matt Hughes could have still been in the very top tear if he had done exactly what you’ve suggested Lesnar do. Hughes really, really needed to learn how to throw punches in combinations among other things. Lesnar could still remain relevant if he wants to do the work. Even without good hands he could at least learn how to move from his back. I was absolutely thunders struck by the lack of skill from his back.

142

Yes. He needs to train somewhere where he’s not in charge, and not everything happens on his terms.

He’s great in his comfort zone: bull-rushing smaller guys, and ground n’ pound from the top.

He’s terrible outside his comfort zone… which is like anywhere standing and getting hit, and anywhere on the ground where he’s not, you know, on top…

143

Well, looks like even oxen have glass jaws.

This whole thing made me laugh. Where them fan boys at now that Brock got laid out by a guy who knows how to throw hands?

144

i would not say he has a glass jaw…he was not knocked unconscious by clean shots with 4 ounce gloves from either Cain or Carwin…and he ate some big knees from Cain as well. but some people if not trained correctly just freeze or ball up and turn away when they get hit. when you do that you actually leave yourself open to get hit more. that is what happened to Brock.

he needs to spar more. his already has the size strength and wrestling base. go to Europe and spar with some of those big k-1 guys, he will either sink or swim, and he will gain some skills or lose relevancy in the UFC.

145

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Well, looks like even oxen have glass jaws.

This whole thing made me laugh. Where them fan boys at now that Brock got laid out by a guy who knows how to throw hands?[/quote]

Well, I think he would have be fine until he got hit with that knee. Everybody gets rocked by some punches, but I don’t think the punches had Lesnar hurt to the point where he would not have recoverd. Then Cain threw that knee with perfect timing and Brock was done after that.

146

It wasn’t just his striking, notice how he immediately tries to pass guard on Cain which led to Cain using the butterfly guard and standing up quick. I think getting rid of Greg Nelson was stupid.

147

That’s fair. But he doesn’t know how to use his hands. I consider this a big victory for “striking.” The guy has very little skill on his feet.

148

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
That’s fair. But he doesn’t know how to use his hands. I consider this a big victory for “striking.” The guy has very little skill on his feet.[/quote]

I guess. But he did take Cain down twice. I’m sure a lot of guys in the HW division wouldn’t have been able to get back up. That second take-down, Cain just sprung back up. Very impressive. My only point is, Cain won by both being able to strike, and being able to defend/stand back up. Someone with only striking experience wouldn’t have been able to do that.

149

Well…we…at least I did…knew Cain would out-strike Brock. What most should be talking about was Brock not being the dominant wrestler. Remember,even with Cain being a decorated wrestler,his skills were underestimated by most.

150

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Well, looks like even oxen have glass jaws.

This whole thing made me laugh. Where them fan boys at now that Brock got laid out by a guy who knows how to throw hands?[/quote]

We are shocked and huddling together trying to keep warm! :frowning:

151

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Well…we…at least I did…knew Cain would out-strike Brock. What most should be talking about was Brock not being the dominant wrestler. Remember,even with Cain being a decorated wrestler,his skills were underestimated by most. [/quote]

I said this in my first post-fight post. It’s not so much that I thought Lesnar was the better wrestler, I just thought his size combined with wrestling ability was gonna be too much for Velasquez. When he stuffed Lesnars first shot and stood up after being taken down I thought he might take it. He rendered all of Lesnars “advantages” completely useless. JDS satnds no chance.

Another thing I wanted to add is how fluid Velasquez looks on his feet, and not just in comparison to someone with no hands like Lesnar. He’s got good footwork and is smooth with his combos. Carwin is by far the hardest puncher in MMA [and that’s a fact] but he’s almost mechanical with his movements. It’s like the difference between Ali and Foreman [I’m just using that as a comparison. Calm down Irish].

152

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Well…we…at least I did…knew Cain would out-strike Brock. What most should be talking about was Brock not being the dominant wrestler. Remember,even with Cain being a decorated wrestler,his skills were underestimated by most. [/quote]

I said this in my first post-fight post. It’s not so much that I thought Lesnar was the better wrestler, I just thought his size combined with wrestling ability was gonna be too much for Velasquez. When he stuffed Lesnars first shot and stood up after being taken down I thought he might take it. He rendered all of Lesnars “advantages” completely useless. JDS satnds no chance.

Another thing I wanted to add is how fluid Velasquez looks on his feet, and not just in comparison to someone with no hands like Lesnar. He’s got good footwork and is smooth with his combos. Carwin is by far the hardest puncher in MMA [and that’s a fact] but he’s almost mechanical with his movements. It’s like the difference between Ali and Foreman [I’m just using that as a comparison. Calm down Irish].[/quote]

I have heard from many high level wrestling “insiders” that Brocks skill and technique have never been THAT good. he was not offered scholarships to any major schools coming out of highschool. It was his freakish size, speed, and athleticism that got him to the top of the NCAA wrestling game. If you get a chance, google the final between him and the guy who beat him for the national championship the first time Brock competed for it. cant remember his name, but his opponent went on to be an multple all pro tackle for the new england patriots. the guy is a fucking beast, but compared to Brock on the mat he looked soft, slow and “weak”.

I think I heard somebody say that he could do a standing back flip weighing over 290lbs.

correct me if i am wrong, but at the NCAA wrestling championships, there is no 265lb weight limit, did not Brock wrestle at around 290 in college?

Point I am trying to make is that by his own admission Brock is not as strong as he was when he was in his early 20’s, it does not surprise me that some of the high level wrestlers in the UFC can stuff some of his take-downs, as he is not as big and strong and fast as he was when he was a competitive wrestler, and elite level “technique” has never been his strong-point.

I saw a guy fight for the Bellator welterweight championships last night, he was on the 2004 olympic wrestling team, now THAT guy had some unreal wrestling skill. he did not look to be near the physical specimen (for his size) that Brock was/is, but he never missed a takedown, even when his opponent(who looked much bigger and more athletic btw) defended perfectly, he still got the take-down and finished in the mount.

not sure any of that made sense to anyone but me…fuck it I’m posting it anyway! lol

153

Heavy, we all know you just like other big fat guys.

:wink:

154

Stephen Neal is the guy who played for the Patriots

Ben Askren won the Bellator WW title beating Lyman Good. Askren’s ability to complete a takedown when it seemed it was stuffed was pretty amazing to watch.

155

Askren almost got subbed too, he needs to be smarter with TD’s.

156

[quote]Kalle wrote:
Stephen Neal is the guy who played for the Patriots

Ben Askren won the Bellator WW title beating Lyman Good. Askren’s ability to complete a takedown when it seemed it was stuffed was pretty amazing to watch. [/quote]

thats the guy! if you get a chance, watch that fight. Good would be in a perfect sprawl with underhooks in, Askren would be fully extended and if what seemed a terrible position, but he would still complete the takedown. damn.

157

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Heavy, we all know you just like other big fat guys.

;)[/quote]

lol

158

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Well…we…at least I did…knew Cain would out-strike Brock. What most should be talking about was Brock not being the dominant wrestler. Remember,even with Cain being a decorated wrestler,his skills were underestimated by most. [/quote]

You are spot on. Not only did Velasquez do a great job on his feet, but he also effectively fought Lesnar off his back. And that is exactly why Lesnar lost. There would have been no devastating strikes had Brock kept Velasquez down after that first takedown. But as someone already pointed out he tried to immediately improve his position allowing him to skillfully escape.

I am seriously impressed with Velasquez. I look forward to seeing how Shane Carwin will deal with this guy. I bet if Carwin didn’t have that loss to Lesnar he would not be as effective. Maybe that loss taught him to measure his punches and pace better. It will be a great fight no doubt.

159

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Well…we…at least I did…knew Cain would out-strike Brock. What most should be talking about was Brock not being the dominant wrestler. Remember,even with Cain being a decorated wrestler,his skills were underestimated by most. [/quote]

I said this in my first post-fight post. It’s not so much that I thought Lesnar was the better wrestler, I just thought his size combined with wrestling ability was gonna be too much for Velasquez. When he stuffed Lesnars first shot and stood up after being taken down I thought he might take it. He rendered all of Lesnars “advantages” completely useless. JDS satnds no chance.

Another thing I wanted to add is how fluid Velasquez looks on his feet, and not just in comparison to someone with no hands like Lesnar. He’s got good footwork and is smooth with his combos. Carwin is by far the hardest puncher in MMA [and that’s a fact] but he’s almost mechanical with his movements. It’s like the difference between Ali and Foreman [I’m just using that as a comparison. Calm down Irish].[/quote]

I have heard from many high level wrestling “insiders” that Brocks skill and technique have never been THAT good. he was not offered scholarships to any major schools coming out of highschool. It was his freakish size, speed, and athleticism that got him to the top of the NCAA wrestling game. If you get a chance, google the final between him and the guy who beat him for the national championship the first time Brock competed for it. cant remember his name, but his opponent went on to be an multple all pro tackle for the new england patriots. the guy is a fucking beast, but compared to Brock on the mat he looked soft, slow and “weak”.

I think I heard somebody say that he could do a standing back flip weighing over 290lbs.

correct me if i am wrong, but at the NCAA wrestling championships, there is no 265lb weight limit, did not Brock wrestle at around 290 in college?

Point I am trying to make is that by his own admission Brock is not as strong as he was when he was in his early 20’s, it does not surprise me that some of the high level wrestlers in the UFC can stuff some of his take-downs, as he is not as big and strong and fast as he was when he was a competitive wrestler, and elite level “technique” has never been his strong-point.

I saw a guy fight for the Bellator welterweight championships last night, he was on the 2004 olympic wrestling team, now THAT guy had some unreal wrestling skill. he did not look to be near the physical specimen (for his size) that Brock was/is, but he never missed a takedown, even when his opponent(who looked much bigger and more athletic btw) defended perfectly, he still got the take-down and finished in the mount.

not sure any of that made sense to anyone but me…fuck it I’m posting it anyway! lol[/quote]

You make a good point. We have yet to see the kind of wrestling elegance that Cain, Chael or Kos have shown, from Brock.

Perhaps he isn’t as a good a wrestler as he was back then, but his shot is still pretty damn fast. I think if he figured out how to time his shots and integrate his wrestling and striking the way GSP, Rashad, or Machida have, he’d come one step closer to beating Cain.

160

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
it does not surprise me that some of the high level wrestlers in the UFC can stuff some of his take-downs…[/quote]

Hold on there now, slow down. Lesnar didn’t lose because he didn’t take Velasquez down. He lost because he couldn’t keep him down. He took him down twice in the first 2:00 of the fight. Also, while Carwin did stuff Lesnar’s takedowns in the 1st round he did take Carwin down in the 2nd and submit him. But that was because Carwin was tired - So? The point is Lesnar has taken everyone down that he’s gone up against in MMA. There are serious weak points to Lesnars game, but takedowns are not one of them.