Lesnar vs. Velasquez

Training
61

[quote]The ShiZniT wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
I will sheepishly admit I am no Brock fan.

its just too hard to count against him.

too big
too strong
too fast
too mean

and shit look at the beard.[/quote]

i wonder if he’s gonna come out in a loin cloth carrying a battle-axe… he looks like a friggin’ Norse god or something.[/quote]

The beard definitly gives Brock the edge in this fight.[/quote]

I’d shit myself if I was in Cain’s shoes. Mostly because I’m not Cain, and getting raped by Odin isn’t very appealing.

62

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sliver wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sliver wrote:
GSP fight people his own size and dominates them. Same with anderson silva.[/quote]

Wrong, GSP fought three guys that were the same size or bigger, Alves, Fitch and Hardy. Kos, BJ, Serra, Hughes, Heiron, Miller, Trigg, Sherk were/are smaller. He used, and still uses, his physical attributes to a great extent.

If a 40lb weight advantage is possible, I would take it as well. Strength is a skill. Strength is a weapon. Welcome to the heavyweight division.[/quote]
Which is beside the point.

I’m not saying Brock isn’t the legitimate Heavyweight champ. I’m saying he’s much less skilled than the people he’s fighting and when you take his size out of the equation he can (and has) gotten his ass kicked.[/quote]

And I’m saying he is skilled. His wrestling and top control aside, I can assure you if Cain, JDS, Couture, Nog, or Mir were able to wave a wand and have his body, or something like it (Ubereem) they’d do it. What I’m saying is that size IS part of the equation, as is using it correctly. It’s one of the things that define a fighter.
Nobody gives Tibau (cuts 25lbs to 155), Alves (cuts 30lbs to 170), Jon Jones or Griffin (235-205) shit for being giants in their weight class. But then again they aren’t champs (yet- see Jones).
If you’re going to knock Brock, look at his sub-par striking, his crappy game off his back, his inability to time a shot right. Don’t knock him for being big and using his wrestling, power, top game and heart to win fights.[/quote]
brock cut from 300 down to 265 and still had a 45 pound advantage over couture. Not only am I not surprised he beat couture. I’m surprised it took him so long.

and brock is skilled compared to who? Who did he fight that he had better standup game than? And who has he fought that he had better ground game than? I can say that Cain’s standup technique is better than brock’s and so is his takedown and ground game. In fact the ONLY advantage he has on Cain is the fact that he’ll be at LEAST 25 pounds heavier than cain when they get into the ring.

I said it before and I’ll say it again. Yes he may be the heavyweight champ of the UFC and that might even be legitimate but pound for pound he doesn’t even rank.

63

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]The ShiZniT wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
I will sheepishly admit I am no Brock fan.

its just too hard to count against him.

too big
too strong
too fast
too mean

and shit look at the beard.[/quote]

i wonder if he’s gonna come out in a loin cloth carrying a battle-axe… he looks like a friggin’ Norse god or something.[/quote]

The beard definitly gives Brock the edge in this fight.[/quote]

I’d shit myself if I was in Cain’s shoes. Mostly because I’m not Cain, and getting raped by Odin isn’t very appealing.
[/quote]

rofl. Nice

64

[quote]Sliver wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sliver wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sliver wrote:
GSP fight people his own size and dominates them. Same with anderson silva.[/quote]

Wrong, GSP fought three guys that were the same size or bigger, Alves, Fitch and Hardy. Kos, BJ, Serra, Hughes, Heiron, Miller, Trigg, Sherk were/are smaller. He used, and still uses, his physical attributes to a great extent.

If a 40lb weight advantage is possible, I would take it as well. Strength is a skill. Strength is a weapon. Welcome to the heavyweight division.[/quote]
Which is beside the point.

I’m not saying Brock isn’t the legitimate Heavyweight champ. I’m saying he’s much less skilled than the people he’s fighting and when you take his size out of the equation he can (and has) gotten his ass kicked.[/quote]

And I’m saying he is skilled. His wrestling and top control aside, I can assure you if Cain, JDS, Couture, Nog, or Mir were able to wave a wand and have his body, or something like it (Ubereem) they’d do it. What I’m saying is that size IS part of the equation, as is using it correctly. It’s one of the things that define a fighter.
Nobody gives Tibau (cuts 25lbs to 155), Alves (cuts 30lbs to 170), Jon Jones or Griffin (235-205) shit for being giants in their weight class. But then again they aren’t champs (yet- see Jones).
If you’re going to knock Brock, look at his sub-par striking, his crappy game off his back, his inability to time a shot right. Don’t knock him for being big and using his wrestling, power, top game and heart to win fights.[/quote]
brock cut from 300 down to 265 and still had a 45 pound advantage over couture. Not only am I not surprised he beat couture. I’m surprised it took him so long.

and brock is skilled compared to who? Who did he fight that he had better standup game than? And who has he fought that he had better ground game than? I can say that Cain’s standup technique is better than brock’s and so is his takedown and ground game. In fact the ONLY advantage he has on Cain is the fact that he’ll be at LEAST 25 pounds heavier than cain when they get into the ring.

I said it before and I’ll say it again. Yes he may be the heavyweight champ of the UFC and that might even be legitimate but pound for pound he doesn’t even rank.[/quote]

Depends how you define p4p. Personally I disregard fighting weight altogether and look at how fighters do in their main weightclass, but that’s me. I think a lot of people define like you do, that is, if everyone was the same size (correct me if I’m wrong).

Anyway, back to the original discussion, my point was that his physicality is a skill (other posters have pointed this out). Saying he wouldn’t win without his size and strength is like saying Roy Jones would suck without his speed- true, but irrelevant. Being able to bench 4 plates for reps, or run a sub 4.7 40 yard dash is part of what makes Lesnar a good fighter.

That aside, let’s be real here- his top control has come a long tremendously, his ability to scramble is very well developed, and his shot, while not on Rashad or GSP’s level, is pretty damn scary. He would not be the champ without those skills.
Cain has a technique advantage in, I suspect as you do, all aspects of MMA (except scrambling ability). He’s also smaller. He can correct this if he wants, just as Lesnar can correct his technique deficits.

65

I think it’s both fair and unfair to say that Brock isn’t as “skilled” of a fighter. On one hand, yes, you don’t see him stringing together kicks and punches in smooth, tight combos. You don’t see him slipping and countering and you don’t see him pulling slick half-guard sweeps on the ground.

On the other hand… can you really blame him? His style is incredibly effective. He can get any fighter in the world to the ground and can finish anybody once he gets there. If he can beat anybody that way, why would he do it any other way?

I agree that he can’t be put on the top pound-for-pound list yet… but for crying out loud the dude has only had 6 fights! I’m not sure there’s anybody who can sport a better resume on their first 6 MMA fights. If he beats Velazquez and then maybe Dos Santos is convincing fashion, then he’s going to have to be on the P4P list.

66

Lesnar’s Size & strength IS a skill… a lot of it is genetics but it still takes a tremendous amount of work. I think it is pretty accepted that knockout power is something you are kind of born with but is considered a skill.

67

[quote]Kalle wrote:
Lesnar’s Size & strength IS a skill… a lot of it is genetics but it still takes a tremendous amount of work. I think it is pretty accepted that knockout power is something you are kind of born with but is considered a skill. [/quote]
KO Power is not a Skill NEWB.

68

I’m not the biggest Lesnar fan. In fact, I want him to get his head smashed in. But continually bashing the guy is ridiculous. Yes, he was getting the shit beat out of him by Carwin, and yes he snuck away with the win. But, the facts are he DID win, and he continues to do so in fairly dominant fashion [last fight aside]. I honestly feel the only dude in the UFC that can beat him right now is Carwin.

When he was fresh he pretty much nullified Lesnars game plan. I don’t think anyone else has the strength, size or wrestling ability to do it. To everyone else, if Lesnar wants you on your back that’s where you’re going. I don’t see the fight with Velasquez being any different. And, can we please stop with the JDS love? The guy is completely overrated and will get crushed by the upper echelon HW’s.

69

Just watched Monster vs Carwin again, 1st round a couple times. Brock didn’t have much to survive, most of Carwin’s strikes were misses or weak. Then Brock bullied tired Carwin with size. Seemed worse watching live. I’m betting Cain will go 5 rounds with him but lose decision. $1.

I think it is pretty accepted that Kalle n sardines don’t know shit about fighting. You aren’t born with KO power, but it is a skill. Not a lot of MMA fighters have it, but boxers, Iron Mike, gots that shit.

70

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
I’m not the biggest Lesnar fan. In fact, I want him to get his head smashed in. But continually bashing the guy is ridiculous. Yes, he was getting the shit beat out of him by Carwin, and yes he snuck away with the win. But, the facts are he DID win, and he continues to do so in fairly dominant fashion [last fight aside]. I honestly feel the only dude in the UFC that can beat him right now is Carwin.

When he was fresh he pretty much nullified Lesnars game plan. I don’t think anyone else has the strength, size or wrestling ability to do it. To everyone else, if Lesnar wants you on your back that’s where you’re going. I don’t see the fight with Velasquez being any different. And, can we please stop with the JDS love? The guy is completely overrated and will get crushed by the upper echelon HW’s.[/quote]
You will rue the day you wrote this, I’ve expected the HW picture to come down to Cain vs. JDS for some time now. And you fail to realize JDS resume being better than the other HW’s.

71

^^^ Dude, the guy’s completely overrated. He’s beaten a few small HW’s, was losing to CroCop in the first round when inexplicably CroCop decided to stop fighting, went the distance with fat shit Nelson, etc… His power is way overrated and there isn’t much else to his game. He wants no part of the bigger, stronger HW’s out there.

72

The fight with Carwin is lauded as being Brock’s big comeback. Yes, I was amazed that he had the presence of mind to go for a submission, and succeed with it.

BUT, that fight was absolutely Carwin’s to lose. Brock panicked when the fists of concrete hit him, as no one can really survive Carwin’s onslaught. The reason he survived on the ground was the size of his own hands and forearms. He covered up, and unlike a normal-sized man, his covering up means that almost none of those shots actually got through cleanly to his head. Carwin should have stopped the frenzy attack and picked his shots. One or two clean shots, like he put on Mir, and he would be the new HW champion. Not to mention, he certainly would not have been gassed come the 2nd round.

Brock was able to survive because of his giants arms and hands. He was only able to take Carwin down in the 2nd round because Carwin was totally gone physically. Brock had tried 3 times in the 1st round and never came close. Kudos to Brock for taking advantage of this giant, gaping invitation to win. But it wasn’t the wild success that it was made out to be. No more than Silva’s sub of Sonnen. Sonnen was practically ASKING to be submitted. I was yelling at the screen a good 15 seconds before it happened for him to move out of that ridiculously foolish and vulnerable position. Even I could have submitted Sonnen from there.

And does anyone remember the Heath Herring fight? Brock’s cardio is juuuuuust fine.

Oh, and if JDS can’t knock out Cro Cop or Roy Nelson in 3 rounds, extremely likely that his power is overrated, especially considering his opponents. I think he’s good, but it would take miracle after miracle for him to become HW champion. Cain is fast, solid, well-rounded, and has good cardio. Brock is bigger, fast, a dominant wrestler, and has good cardio. And probably becoming more well-rounded by the day.

I’m absolutely picking Brock. The freaky unlikely could happen, as the possibility always exists in MMA, but it would be shocking in execution.

73

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^ Dude, the guy’s completely overrated. He’s beaten a few small HW’s, was losing to CroCop in the first round when inexplicably CroCop decided to stop fighting, went the distance with fat shit Nelson, etc… His power is way overrated and there isn’t much else to his game. He wants no part of the bigger, stronger HW’s out there.[/quote]
Mirko Cro Cop isn’t exactly easy to finish and Nelson is a solid fighter.

74

[quote]JHollywood wrote:
I was yelling at the screen a good 15 seconds before it happened for him to move out of that ridiculously foolish and vulnerable position. Even I could have submitted Sonnen from there.[/quote]

I look forward to seeing you in your next title fight.

75

pound for pound rankings were created so that little guys could feel like they were the more important fighters. its a truth that many wont be able to come to grips with

76

[quote]The ShiZniT wrote:

I think it is pretty accepted that Kalle n sardines don’t know shit about fighting. You aren’t born with KO power, but it is a skill. Not a lot of MMA fighters have it, but boxers, Iron Mike, gots that shit.[/quote]

I said what I meant wrong, and probably used a poor analogy.

From what I understand it is something some people just have. Some seem to have just as good striking as someone else but don’t have knockout power.

That is besides the point anyway, I just think it is dumb that people say if Brock wasn’t so big and strong he would suck. There has been plenty of big HW’s that haven’t had the success of Brock

77

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^ Dude, the guy’s completely overrated. He’s beaten a few small HW’s, was losing to CroCop in the first round when inexplicably CroCop decided to stop fighting, went the distance with fat shit Nelson, etc… His power is way overrated and there isn’t much else to his game. He wants no part of the bigger, stronger HW’s out there.[/quote]
Mirko Cro Cop isn’t exactly easy to finish and Nelson is a solid fighter. [/quote]

He didn’t finish CroCop. CroCop stopped due to a cut on his eye lid. And, if CroCop had followed up in the 1st round after wobbling JDS with one shot instead of just stop fighting we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Pretty sure CroCop threw that fight. I’m pretty sure CroCop has thrown several of his fights lately. No one goes from what he was to what he is. Age doesn’t do that, and he’d been ko’d a couple of times before so I don’t believe the Gonzaga ko took the fight out of him.

78

[quote]Kalle wrote:

[quote]The ShiZniT wrote:

I think it is pretty accepted that Kalle n sardines don’t know shit about fighting. You aren’t born with KO power, but it is a skill. Not a lot of MMA fighters have it, but boxers, Iron Mike, gots that shit.[/quote]

I said what I meant wrong, and probably used a poor analogy.

From what I understand it is something some people just have. Some seem to have just as good striking as someone else but don’t have knockout power.

That is besides the point anyway, I just think it is dumb that people say if Brock wasn’t so big and strong he would suck. There has been plenty of big HW’s that haven’t had the success of Brock[/quote]
I didn’t say he sucked, I said he was mediocre. The guys his size that haven’t had success, they’re the ones that just plain suck.

79

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
^^^ Dude, the guy’s completely overrated. He’s beaten a few small HW’s, was losing to CroCop in the first round when inexplicably CroCop decided to stop fighting, went the distance with fat shit Nelson, etc… His power is way overrated and there isn’t much else to his game. He wants no part of the bigger, stronger HW’s out there.[/quote]
Mirko Cro Cop isn’t exactly easy to finish and Nelson is a solid fighter. [/quote]

He didn’t finish CroCop. CroCop stopped due to a cut on his eye lid. And, if CroCop had followed up in the 1st round after wobbling JDS with one shot instead of just stop fighting we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Pretty sure CroCop threw that fight. I’m pretty sure CroCop has thrown several of his fights lately. No one goes from what he was to what he is. Age doesn’t do that, and he’d been ko’d a couple of times before so I don’t believe the Gonzaga ko took the fight out of him.[/quote]
Cro Cop has a case if “I don’t give a shit anymore” If that was Pride Mirko Mir and JDS would lose and so would the “new class” of HW’s in the division. And to The Shiznit KO power is not a skill. Skill is a learned capacity you dope. Lesnar’s size and certain fighters ko power are intagnibles.

80

It seems to me that most people who are of the opinion that Lesnar does not have much in the way of technique or skill seem to be basing that on the Carwin fight. This is actually a rather an unfair assessment, especially when you consider the length of time away from the octagon and training that he experienced. This coupled with the fact that he had not been training MMA for a significant period of time prior to his illness would make any ring rust all the more pronounced.

Further Lesnar is clearly an incredibly accomplished wrestler. Is wrestling much easier technically than other combat disciplines? Or do you believe that you can become an NCAA champion by virtue of size alone? (I am not asking this question for the purpose of being facetious. I simply have no experience of wrestling).

My own personal opinion (for what it’s worth) is that it is still too early to tell whether Brock will be a “mediocre” champion and fade into obscurity. But I am interested to see if he has improved for the upcoming fight with Cain Velasquez.