Lesnar vs. Velasquez

Training
41

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Beast27195 wrote:

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Uhh, you do realize that until he gassed himself Carwin not only stuffed Lesnars takedowns he beat the shit out of him as well, right? I don’t think Velasquez is the guy to beat Lesnar. Think we’re gonna have to wait for the Carwin/Lesnar rematch. Lesnar’s just too big and strong for Velasquez’s gameplan. Unless he surprises everyone and knocks him out, but I just don’t see that happening.[/quote]

Yes, I watched this fight.

Carwin is also a Gorilla.[/quote]

Carwin smashed his melon sized fists into brock so hard for five minutes his body seized up on him. Brock knew he would have to weather a storm of fists, he did for five minutes and then walked straight back to the center of the ring and dominated the guy. That is what champions do. In thousands of fights I have never seen that kind of mental fortitude. Every other fighter in the division would crumple and quit after getting caught in that position by carwin. Brock just took it. Do you remember how pissed he sounded that his corner would even ASK how he was doing after that first round. Carwin Lesnar rematch is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, I’d bet money he wont ever get back there. Junior and cain have the best chance to beat brock (not that they will) due to their superior striking skills combined with much quicker feet than anyone brock has faced. I’m saying all of this with Cain having been my favorite in the UFC since the rothwell beating. I dont think he can keep brock standing long enough unless he has put on about 30 pounds in the last few months.[/quote]

QFT.

JDS and Cain both represent the lighter, faster, more mobile heavyweights, however, Brock is big and just as mobile. His standup will only continue to improve, but if anyone thought he was going to win the Carwin fight in a striking battle, I can only say quit smokin that shit. Carwin had never been past the 1st round, so what do you do to beat him? Take him past the 1st. With Cain, I see Brock closing the distance and taking him down immediately. From there, good ol’ GnP. Cain hasn’t spent much, if any time on his back. Like all fights, it can go either way, but I’m rooting for Brock on this one. [/quote]

Brock’s standup has gotten as good as it’s gonna get. Just like not everyone can be a genetic freak of nature, not everyone’s technique will improve. Brock was fucking hurt in the first round, he survived by a cunt hair, and props to him, he turned it around. But trying to pretend he wasn’t legitimately in danger is ridiculous.

So tell me, why is a rematch between Lesnar and an improved Carwin dumb?[/quote]

Carwin is and always will be a striker. His ground game is well developed from collegiate wrestling. My point was that he gave every ounce of effort trying to finish brock and couldnt. i DONT think it was a technical issue or a conditioning one. I think he saw jis chance to win the fight jumped on brock and still couldnt do it.

What else is he going to do next time, expend less energy by not hitting as hard/frequently so he wont seize up in the second round? The guy trains with the best in denver so as big as he is I think he was probably very well conditioned and simply couldnt finish the guy with his hands, which is all he would have in this situation.

I think he came nowhere close to finishing brock,it was just such a savage beating that only someone with the physical attr. and mental fortitude of brock could withstand. I agree that in Cain and Jrs case brock is simply to explosive for them to execute their movement and striking that has been so effective for them in the weight class. Thats why I would like to see both of them (particularly cain) continue to put on weight as they have been doing.

But Brock nearly made the nfl despite only having played high school football. This is an are you fucking kidding me one in billion type athlete. I understand hes had relatively few fights and some have been tough, but the fact that he is still not getting tossed in to the pfp number one in the world is absurd.[/quote]

Okay let’s not get ahead of ourselves. The man is very beatable. His physical qualities weren’t as imposing as you make them out to be when he fought Couture, a man he had anywhere from 40-60lbs on. He has a long way to go before he goes down in history as a P4P great. Fixing the plethora of holes in his game would be a start, as would beating a few more quality contenders (Couture and Mir do not count).

42

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]Beast27195 wrote:

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Uhh, you do realize that until he gassed himself Carwin not only stuffed Lesnars takedowns he beat the shit out of him as well, right? I don’t think Velasquez is the guy to beat Lesnar. Think we’re gonna have to wait for the Carwin/Lesnar rematch. Lesnar’s just too big and strong for Velasquez’s gameplan. Unless he surprises everyone and knocks him out, but I just don’t see that happening.[/quote]

Yes, I watched this fight.

Carwin is also a Gorilla.[/quote]

Carwin smashed his melon sized fists into brock so hard for five minutes his body seized up on him. Brock knew he would have to weather a storm of fists, he did for five minutes and then walked straight back to the center of the ring and dominated the guy. That is what champions do. In thousands of fights I have never seen that kind of mental fortitude. Every other fighter in the division would crumple and quit after getting caught in that position by carwin. Brock just took it. Do you remember how pissed he sounded that his corner would even ASK how he was doing after that first round. Carwin Lesnar rematch is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, I’d bet money he wont ever get back there. Junior and cain have the best chance to beat brock (not that they will) due to their superior striking skills combined with much quicker feet than anyone brock has faced. I’m saying all of this with Cain having been my favorite in the UFC since the rothwell beating. I dont think he can keep brock standing long enough unless he has put on about 30 pounds in the last few months.[/quote]

QFT.

JDS and Cain both represent the lighter, faster, more mobile heavyweights, however, Brock is big and just as mobile. His standup will only continue to improve, but if anyone thought he was going to win the Carwin fight in a striking battle, I can only say quit smokin that shit. Carwin had never been past the 1st round, so what do you do to beat him? Take him past the 1st. With Cain, I see Brock closing the distance and taking him down immediately. From there, good ol’ GnP. Cain hasn’t spent much, if any time on his back. Like all fights, it can go either way, but I’m rooting for Brock on this one. [/quote]

Brock’s standup has gotten as good as it’s gonna get. Just like not everyone can be a genetic freak of nature, not everyone’s technique will improve. Brock was fucking hurt in the first round, he survived by a cunt hair, and props to him, he turned it around. But trying to pretend he wasn’t legitimately in danger is ridiculous.

So tell me, why is a rematch between Lesnar and an improved Carwin dumb?[/quote]

Carwin is and always will be a striker. His ground game is well developed from collegiate wrestling. My point was that he gave every ounce of effort trying to finish brock and couldnt. i DONT think it was a technical issue or a conditioning one. I think he saw jis chance to win the fight jumped on brock and still couldnt do it. What else is he going to do next time, expend less energy by not hitting as hard/frequently so he wont seize up in the second round? The guy trains with the best in denver so as big as he is I think he was probably very well conditioned and simply couldnt finish the guy with his hands, which is all he would have in this situation. I think he came nowhere close to finishing brock,it was just such a savage beating that only someone with the physical attr. and mental fortitude of brock could withstand. I agree that in Cain and Jrs case brock is simply to explosive for them to execute their movement and striking that has been so effective for them in the weight class. Thats why I would like to see both of them (particularly cain) continue to put on weight as they have been doing.

But Brock nearly made the nfl despite only having played high school football. This is an are you fucking kidding me one in billion type athlete. I understand hes had relatively few fights and some have been tough, but the fact that he is still not getting tossed in to the pfp number one in the world is absurd.[/quote]
The ref was close to stepping in. Carwin stuffed Brock’s td’s in the first round in the second he fatigued, his legs fatigued to the point where he couldn’t move and he was finished. So yes with either a conditioning improvement or a strategic one he can improve and the fight can go different.

Cain is a stamina freak and has the wrestling to endure the first rounds, his game plan is to push the fight into the later rounds which Brock may not be able to last through depending on how the fight goes. A man that size cannot last as long as Cain, it’s science. Cain supposedly has better stamina and is more talented than any one else that AKA has trained. The fight will probably go one of two ways. A Brock finish within the first couple of rounds, a Cain KO, TKO or decision.

43

Cain TKO rd 3

44

lol, brock is such a polarizing figure…i cant believe how many of you dont like him…or how many people are letting their dislike of him taint their judgement in betting. but thanks for whoever’s throwing down on cain cause you’re making my betting lines much better. im with zeb, i think im gonna make some money off of this one…cain’s cardio wont looks so good when he’s getting worn out on his back with a 280 lbs monster on top of him

45

I want cain to win but I see brock taking this one… I think carwin still has the best chance of beating him. Also I think lesnars hands will get better… but they aren’t going to be on par with a lot of these other guys… he can’t make his reaction time any better or his hand speed as fast etc… he doesn’t have much more he can improve with his hands imo

Also best of luck with the bets…

46

[quote]Amiright wrote:
I want cain to win but I see brock taking this one… I think carwin still has the best chance of beating him. Also I think lesnars hands will get better… but they aren’t going to be on par with a lot of these other guys… he can’t make his reaction time any better or his hand speed as fast etc… he doesn’t have much more he can improve with his hands imo

Also best of luck with the bets…[/quote]

Thanks Amiright. I’m taking the considerable amount I won when Lesnar beat Carwin and plopping it down on him to win again. If I lose I’m still even, but if I win I’m up huge.

47

I will sheepishly admit I am no Brock fan.

its just too hard to count against him.

too big
too strong
too fast
too mean

and shit look at the beard.

48

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
I will sheepishly admit I am no Brock fan.

its just too hard to count against him.

too big
too strong
too fast
too mean

and shit look at the beard.[/quote]

i wonder if he’s gonna come out in a loin cloth carrying a battle-axe… he looks like a friggin’ Norse god or something.

49

[quote]Amiright wrote:
I want cain to win but I see brock taking this one… I think carwin still has the best chance of beating him. Also I think lesnars hands will get better… but they aren’t going to be on par with a lot of these other guys… he can’t make his reaction time any better or his hand speed as fast etc… he doesn’t have much more he can improve with his hands imo

Also best of luck with the bets…[/quote]

I think there’s actually still a lot that Brock can improve on in terms of his hands. But I’ll agree that he’ll probably never be on par with the more natural strikers in the division. Luckily for him though, he’s an absolute physical beast and a very effective grappler. So he doesn’t really have to become the next Anderson Silva in order to continue to win.

I think it’s still an interesting match-up though and am hoping that it’s at least a competitive fight.

50

[quote]slimjim wrote:
lol, brock is such a polarizing figure…i cant believe how many of you dont like him…or how many people are letting their dislike of him taint their judgement in betting. but thanks for whoever’s throwing down on cain cause you’re making my betting lines much better. im with zeb, i think im gonna make some money off of this one…cain’s cardio wont looks so good when he’s getting worn out on his back with a 280 lbs monster on top of him[/quote]

It’s because he’s a mediocre fighter at best. his only advantage is his size. Take that out of the equation like with Carwin and he gets his ass pounded. If he were 5’9 170 not only would he not be in the UFC, he wouldn’t even be on their radar. I’ll admit that he’ll probably beat Cain, but that doesn’t mean I have to like him or take him seriously as a fighter.

51

Mariusz Pudz.
Bobby Lashley.
Bob Sapp.
Brett Rogers.
Hong Man Choi.

…/=…

Carwin
Brock Lesnar
Overeem

What do these two groups of fighters have in common?
What makes them different?

What are haters gonna do?

52

[quote]Sliver wrote:

[quote]slimjim wrote:
lol, brock is such a polarizing figure…i cant believe how many of you dont like him…or how many people are letting their dislike of him taint their judgement in betting. but thanks for whoever’s throwing down on cain cause you’re making my betting lines much better. im with zeb, i think im gonna make some money off of this one…cain’s cardio wont looks so good when he’s getting worn out on his back with a 280 lbs monster on top of him[/quote]

It’s because he’s a mediocre fighter at best. his only advantage is his size. Take that out of the equation like with Carwin and he gets his ass pounded. If he were 5’9 170 not only would he not be in the UFC, he wouldn’t even be on their radar. I’ll admit that he’ll probably beat Cain, but that doesn’t mean I have to like him or take him seriously as a fighter. [/quote]

it’s hard for me to take this seriously as an argument

53

[quote]Sliver wrote:

[quote]slimjim wrote:
lol, brock is such a polarizing figure…i cant believe how many of you dont like him…or how many people are letting their dislike of him taint their judgement in betting. but thanks for whoever’s throwing down on cain cause you’re making my betting lines much better. im with zeb, i think im gonna make some money off of this one…cain’s cardio wont looks so good when he’s getting worn out on his back with a 280 lbs monster on top of him[/quote]

It’s because he’s a mediocre fighter at best. his only advantage is his size. Take that out of the equation like with Carwin and he gets his ass pounded. If he were 5’9 170 not only would he not be in the UFC, he wouldn’t even be on their radar. I’ll admit that he’ll probably beat Cain, but that doesn’t mean I have to like him or take him seriously as a fighter. [/quote]

that is terrible rational. How can you say the undisputed heavyweight champion is “mediocre at best?” Champions are not mediocre.

you cant say “If he were 5’9” 170 he wouldnt even be in the UFC" lol Hes not 5’9" 170

thats like saying “if GSP was 4’11” 130 lbs and sucked at fighting he wouldnt be in the UFC." You cant take away physical attributes from someone and use that as your argument. thats ridiculous.

54

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Sliver wrote:

[quote]slimjim wrote:
lol, brock is such a polarizing figure…i cant believe how many of you dont like him…or how many people are letting their dislike of him taint their judgement in betting. but thanks for whoever’s throwing down on cain cause you’re making my betting lines much better. im with zeb, i think im gonna make some money off of this one…cain’s cardio wont looks so good when he’s getting worn out on his back with a 280 lbs monster on top of him[/quote]

It’s because he’s a mediocre fighter at best. his only advantage is his size. Take that out of the equation like with Carwin and he gets his ass pounded. If he were 5’9 170 not only would he not be in the UFC, he wouldn’t even be on their radar. I’ll admit that he’ll probably beat Cain, but that doesn’t mean I have to like him or take him seriously as a fighter. [/quote]

that is terrible rational. How can you say the undisputed heavyweight champion is “mediocre at best?” Champions are not mediocre.

you cant say “If he were 5’9” 170 he wouldnt even be in the UFC" lol Hes not 5’9" 170

thats like saying “if GSP was 4’11” 130 lbs and sucked at fighting he wouldnt be in the UFC." You cant take away physical attributes from someone and use that as your argument. thats ridiculous. [/quote]

The point is, pound for pound, Lesnar is nothing special. They should have a 225 or 235 weight class.

[quote]gregron wrote:
“How can you say the undisputed heavyweight champion is “mediocre at best?” Champions are not mediocre.”[/quote]

You can say it because when you walk around weighing 40 pounds more than your opponents, you can be mediocre and still win. Give me any BJJ blackbelt that I outweigh by 40 pounds and my mediocre BJJ skills combined with my ability to physically dominate, and I’ll win… hey, what am I talking about, that actually happened, when I was far less skilled than I am now.

55

Brock is big is why he wins used as a negative is one of the dumbest arguments in mma

56

GSP fights people his own size and dominates them. Same with anderson silva. How many people has brock fought that were actually as big as him? One, Carwin. Did Brock “dominate” Carwin? He barely survived Carwin and if they fought again today I have no doubt that Carwin would win.

He may be the UFC heavyweight champ but pound for pound he doesn’t even rank.

57

[quote]Sliver wrote:
GSP fight people his own size and dominates them. Same with anderson silva.[/quote]

Wrong, GSP fought three guys that were the same size or bigger, Alves, Fitch and Hardy. Kos, BJ, Serra, Hughes, Heiron, Miller, Trigg, Sherk were/are smaller. He used, and still uses, his physical attributes to a great extent.

If a 40lb weight advantage is possible, I would take it as well. Strength is a skill. Strength is a weapon. Welcome to the heavyweight division.

58

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sliver wrote:
GSP fight people his own size and dominates them. Same with anderson silva.[/quote]

Wrong, GSP fought three guys that were the same size or bigger, Alves, Fitch and Hardy. Kos, BJ, Serra, Hughes, Heiron, Miller, Trigg, Sherk were/are smaller. He used, and still uses, his physical attributes to a great extent.

If a 40lb weight advantage is possible, I would take it as well. Strength is a skill. Strength is a weapon. Welcome to the heavyweight division.[/quote]
Which is beside the point.

I’m not saying Brock isn’t the legitimate Heavyweight champ. I’m saying he’s much less skilled than the people he’s fighting and when you take his size out of the equation he can (and has) gotten his ass kicked.

59

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
I will sheepishly admit I am no Brock fan.

its just too hard to count against him.

too big
too strong
too fast
too mean

and shit look at the beard.[/quote]

i wonder if he’s gonna come out in a loin cloth carrying a battle-axe… he looks like a friggin’ Norse god or something.[/quote]

The beard definitly gives Brock the edge in this fight.

60

[quote]Sliver wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sliver wrote:
GSP fight people his own size and dominates them. Same with anderson silva.[/quote]

Wrong, GSP fought three guys that were the same size or bigger, Alves, Fitch and Hardy. Kos, BJ, Serra, Hughes, Heiron, Miller, Trigg, Sherk were/are smaller. He used, and still uses, his physical attributes to a great extent.

If a 40lb weight advantage is possible, I would take it as well. Strength is a skill. Strength is a weapon. Welcome to the heavyweight division.[/quote]
Which is beside the point.

I’m not saying Brock isn’t the legitimate Heavyweight champ. I’m saying he’s much less skilled than the people he’s fighting and when you take his size out of the equation he can (and has) gotten his ass kicked.[/quote]

And I’m saying he is skilled. His wrestling and top control aside, I can assure you if Cain, JDS, Couture, Nog, or Mir were able to wave a wand and have his body, or something like it (Ubereem) they’d do it. What I’m saying is that size IS part of the equation, as is using it correctly. It’s one of the things that define a fighter.
Nobody gives Tibau (cuts 25lbs to 155), Alves (cuts 30lbs to 170), Jon Jones or Griffin (235-205) shit for being giants in their weight class. But then again they aren’t champs (yet- see Jones).

If you’re going to knock Brock, look at his sub-par striking, his crappy game off his back, his inability to time a shot right. Don’t knock him for being big and using his wrestling, power, top game and heart to win fights.