Lesnar vs Overeem

Training
141

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Meh Carwin… lucky heavy handed guy. He doesn’t have anywhere near the technical ability of overeem.
JDS and CAIN too. Actually I think Cain is more technical than JDS, JDS is just a heavy handed guy and caught him. I don’t see him catching overeem at all. As rogue said, I think people just don’t read styles too well around here. No JDS, Cain or Mir can give Reem a hard time and that’s being purely objective.

Only person who will give Reem a hard time is a hard as nails stand up guy with good ground and take down defense who also has the same reach. Reems body punishment is too much for any MMA guy to handle. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. They’re no where near conditioned enough. The Dutch style training, drilling and conditioning (body especially) is oodles above that of usa style training.[/quote]

You’re as one-sided towards Overeem as ZEB is towards wrestlers. Did you really call Carwin a “lucky heavy handed guy”. What? Purely objective? Do you actually read what you write?[/quote]

Show me Carwin’s amazing MMA skills, highlight vid, training vid, fight vid or whatever. He’s a big heavy handed guy, not much else. He wont do much else in MMA because he cant and he knows it. We’ll watch him fade more than he has already

I’m not much of an overeem follower but I rate him oodles above what the UFC has to offer him.

All the ufc heavies are lambs to the slaughter at the moment.
[/quote]

I’m a fan of Carwin, but even I have to agree with you. Carwin is a very one dimensional fighter, and with his new body he’s given up on that one dimension (extreme power punching). He has a brutal double, but he’s not some sort of elite wrestler, or fighter for that matter. I don’t think he can beat Reem.

Cain? There is the height and reach to consider. And the SIZE. Reem is 265 lean. Cain is 235 and pudgy. I don’t know. I think he has the skills to hang and beat Reem, he knows how to setup take downs. But the size is too much here.

JDS? I personally think this is a fight. I think Reem wins because:
-He’s a better striker.
-He’s a better striker in this fight because JDS never goes for takedowns.

142

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
I dunno, I’m just used to the hard hard conditioning of stand up fighters, brutal conditioning of taking punishment for 12 rounds, blows to the head and body until everything is ruptured on the inside and they still have this impeccable spirit fighting on.
I can respect Brock tried but he just lacks that spirit and to me, I can’t take a fighter seriously if they lack that.

Cerrone certainly showed it tonight despite being schooled. That is inspiring and respectable in this sport.

Mma has too many years left before fighters become as hardened as seasoned stand fighters. It’s only under 20 years old so it is understandable but the ones that will make the best progress are the stand up guys who can adapt amazing wrestling/bjj skills, not the other way around as hyped by fags like goldberg and rogan.[/quote]

This is a load of shit. The Nog bros, Shogun, Fedor, Cerrone, Condit, Frankie Edgar, the Diaz bros, Diego Sanchez, Chris Lytle, Mark Hominick, Urijah Faber, John Fitch, Rich Franklin, Anderson Silva, Chris Leben, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Randy Couture, Cain Velasquez…That is a VERY abridged list of MMA fighters with just as much if not more guts and grit than anyone in combat sports. I could go on and on all day.

Yeah kickboxing and boxing have and will always have some badass dudes but the age of a sport has nothing to do with how tough someones mettle is, that comes from individual willpower/strength and life experiences. [/quote]
He’s sort of right. Striking is going to dominate MMA for awhile (at least at the higher levels). I don’t know, grappling might get better and there might be a shift back to grappling. Wrestling and BJJ were pretty dominate but you’re starting to see a lot better striking and more guys able to defend takedowns.

In general MMA has a lot of potential for growth and a lot of fighters today still make a lot of mistakes, a lot less than before, but still there is a lot of room to grow.

Humble may be ignorant of grappling and stuff, but if he’s training Dutch style Muay Thai he’s going to be pretty knowledgeable about striking.[/quote]

I disagree. Most of the guys fighting today in the UFC with winning records are top control guys. There is always going to be a place for the grappler. There are always ways to get a takedown.

143

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
I dunno, I’m just used to the hard hard conditioning of stand up fighters, brutal conditioning of taking punishment for 12 rounds, blows to the head and body until everything is ruptured on the inside and they still have this impeccable spirit fighting on.
I can respect Brock tried but he just lacks that spirit and to me, I can’t take a fighter seriously if they lack that.

Cerrone certainly showed it tonight despite being schooled. That is inspiring and respectable in this sport.

Mma has too many years left before fighters become as hardened as seasoned stand fighters. It’s only under 20 years old so it is understandable but the ones that will make the best progress are the stand up guys who can adapt amazing wrestling/bjj skills, not the other way around as hyped by fags like goldberg and rogan.[/quote]

This is a load of shit. The Nog bros, Shogun, Fedor, Cerrone, Condit, Frankie Edgar, the Diaz bros, Diego Sanchez, Chris Lytle, Mark Hominick, Urijah Faber, John Fitch, Rich Franklin, Anderson Silva, Chris Leben, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Randy Couture, Cain Velasquez…That is a VERY abridged list of MMA fighters with just as much if not more guts and grit than anyone in combat sports. I could go on and on all day.

Yeah kickboxing and boxing have and will always have some badass dudes but the age of a sport has nothing to do with how tough someones mettle is, that comes from individual willpower/strength and life experiences. [/quote]
He’s sort of right. Striking is going to dominate MMA for awhile (at least at the higher levels). I don’t know, grappling might get better and there might be a shift back to grappling. Wrestling and BJJ were pretty dominate but you’re starting to see a lot better striking and more guys able to defend takedowns.

In general MMA has a lot of potential for growth and a lot of fighters today still make a lot of mistakes, a lot less than before, but still there is a lot of room to grow.

Humble may be ignorant of grappling and stuff, but if he’s training Dutch style Muay Thai he’s going to be pretty knowledgeable about striking.[/quote]

I disagree. Most of the guys fighting today in the UFC with winning records are top control guys. There is always going to be a place for the grappler. There are always ways to get a takedown.
[/quote]

There’s a good mix of both in my opinion. But ill say it again, all the dominant strikers also have competent ground games and all the top grapplers usually have competent standup (GSP, BJ penn)

144

Forgive me. The quote trees are getting long.

Whiteflash,

I think that both Carwin and Reem have proven that no one on the planet can afford a take one to give one strategy with either of them. The reason I think Overeem wins is that he is a much more polished striker, while Carwin at best is a charge forward and throw type of guy, and a worst a stand there and get hit while eating jabs and straights guy(vs. JDS). Overeem has a more complete game than that, so I am betting the “better” kickboxer of the two if it turns into a kickboxing match. I have no idea which one hits “harder”.

Audiogarden,

I don’t think Overeem “freaks out”, but at 205 we saw fatigue and bad positions erode his ability to use his skills. Now, we both understand that is what being tired ALWAYS does, but in Overeem’s case several times he stopped trying to apply his grappling on the bottom. Even small things like turning onto a hip or pushing/framing were not attempted. My point was that top flight grapplers have usually gotten themselves to a point where they will always try as opposed to laying there. Those who haven’t felt near death on the bottom so many times don’t. I see this as similar to humble’s scenario.

Regards,

Robert A

145

[quote]Robert A wrote:

Audiogarden,

I don’t think Overeem “freaks out”, but at 205 we saw fatigue and bad positions erode his ability to use his skills. Now, we both understand that is what being tired ALWAYS does, but in Overeem’s case several times he stopped trying to apply his grappling on the bottom. Even small things like turning onto a hip or pushing/framing were not attempted. My point was that top flight grapplers have usually gotten themselves to a point where they will always try as opposed to laying there. Those who haven’t felt near death on the bottom so many times don’t. I see this as similar to humble’s scenario.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

I never claimed that Overeem had world class grappling, just that it is very good. I agree you will never see a guy like Nog ever stop trying to apply his grappling, but for the most part if Overeem’s conditioning is as improved as he claims it is compared to his time at 205, i dont think anyone in today’s HW division is gonna be the one that takes his will away like that on the ground. Furthermore, i do believe his added strength and size will only add to his ability to defend take downs and get back to his feet. Some people (like Frank Mir) dont have the physique to hold that muscle and still move like they used to. Overeem has a very long lean, athletic physique that in my opinion would only benefit from his added strength and size.

146

Though Lesnar got put down quickly, he did look like a new man in the cage. He didn’t flop across the octagon when a punch connected. His striking definitely improved. Everything else aside, he was a very entertaining fighter to watch.

147

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
diverticulitis
lots of good reading out there on how steroids or other anabolic agents
can promote it [/quote]

sorry, but no. the kind of steroids the MD’s are talking about are NOT ANABOLIC steroids.
The results indicating steroids come from research where the mean age of patients was 65 years old. Those men do not take anabolic steroids, they take a host of steroids to deal with other issues.

This is akin to the Chris Benoit case where doctors also shot their mouth off about something they know dick about. Benoit was found to have Xanax, hydrocodone, and an elevated level of testosterone, caused by a synthetic form of the hormone, in his system.
They blamed the fact he killed his wife and son, before killing himself, on the synthetic hormone in his system, because, of course, it was roid rage that made him do it. Dozens of doctors were interviewed on tv parroting this crap.

Dozens of arm chair physicians, wanting to see their name on the interwebz are doing the same in regards to Lesnar as well.

Benoit went nuts because he suffered from severe depression and used Xanax which can cause suicidal thoughts and hydrocodone, which can cause hallucinations. Now look up the side effects of steroids, anabolic steroids and NOWHERE do you see anything remotely indicating psychotic episodes OR causing diverticulitis.

Lesnar might be juiced to the neck, no issue with that at all, might have been since he was 16, doesn’t matter either but it did NOT cause diverticulitis and ANABOLIC steroids do not mask it either. It is very rare a young man gets it, granted, but not impossible. It is caused by feces getting trapped, that’s all. They don’t even know why some people develop it and why some don’t.

[/quote]

That is utter bullshit. I will not deny that pressure and money, maybe marital issues were present. Surely there must be an underlying mental illness. But bottom line steroids are dangerous and pretending they aren’t so we can legalize them to get jacked is fucked up. Lesnar is sicker than he shuold be because of steroids. Benoit was more unstale than he should have been because of steroids (though in both cases, especially benoit, concussions must have played a factor) eddie guererro died from steroids, andre the giant shortened his life from steroids. Lately we are finally seeing how steroids in the NHL are hurting people, and I would easily say steroids damage your brain when dealing with concussions. Steroids are bad, don’t pretend their not you fuckhead. I do not give 2 shits about “research”, because we still think weed causes mania and paranoia and a lack of motivation. In a way, it does, but it in no way makes you lazy as much as alcohol didn’t make you get in a bar fight.

If you are willing to suggest that high levels of steroids and HGH do not cause intestinal and mental issues your fucking retarded

148

and further, just giving the people the illusion of increased size and strength leads to incredibly poor decision making. Of course you can do steroids safely, and at high levels, for a long, successful time, and if you are smart you will suffer mild at worst side effects outside of occasionaly bouts of illness that are impacted by your drug regimen. But put people in a situation where fists are flying, plus xanax, steroids, ssris, concussions, other painkillers, stress, alcohol, older age, arteriosclerosis (stalin had this, hence some wilder decisions) you will fuck yourself up. Accidentally or not Benoit killed his family, lesnar killed his career, and all these aging football players sacrificed their lives for success. Accept it or you are reliving in the stone age, and until we accept it we will never truly be able to safely regulate and prescribe these drugs.

Dr’s have very little in the way of creative knowledge and all too much in the way of scriptured knowledge

149

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
The UFC’s Golden Boy got his ass handed to him again. Glad to see he is done. How he came off after the second Mir fight, his antics against Herring and his constantly saying how bad and tough he is got old. His fan base was probably what made me dislike him even more. I think he will be remembered as a bully and a front-runner. Once he started facing skilled guys who he didn’t have a 60lb weight advantage on, he started getting fucked up.

BTW, I would love to see Overeem fight Mir after Frank has been bashing him constantly leading up to the Brock fight. That might look worse than the Carwin/Mir fight. [/quote]

Serious? Frank is bashing the reem?

The reem will rag doll him too. Frank rates his stand up but the reem will maul his head and ko him whilst standing.

jds is too short and the reems high k1 style guard will be used and he’ll swing in mid air or hit his gloves. The reem will then knee the shit out of him and go on raping the rest of the heavies in the ufc, retire wealthy and stamp the fact that if the Ufc branches out of it’s USA comfort zone and brings in more euro fighters, they will spoil the divisions some more.
[/quote]

ust wait till they start feeding the Brazilians. Americans never have enough hunger to prove to the world they are the best, Americans just want to be the best American

150

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

No, but a division 1 NCAA championship does, as well as more than 100 Div 1 wins with only 5 losses in your collegiate career.

Dont speak on subjects you are completely ignorant of. [/quote]

So Kurt Angle would make an awesome MMA fighter too. No, he prob would, size, steroids, media presence, fan base.

An undefeated record in college is elite, hence why Steve Neal played for the patriots and Brock played for Vince Mcmahnon. I dunno Steve’s record (151-10), but American collegiate athletic are also not the be all end all of wrestling. (neal won an olympic gold). Just go count the Americans who won the Olympic god medal, and you will see very few given this boards adoration of them (honestly I mean mma’s adoration of them, I’m just makin a point)

151

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

Audiogarden,

I don’t think Overeem “freaks out”, but at 205 we saw fatigue and bad positions erode his ability to use his skills. Now, we both understand that is what being tired ALWAYS does, but in Overeem’s case several times he stopped trying to apply his grappling on the bottom. Even small things like turning onto a hip or pushing/framing were not attempted. My point was that top flight grapplers have usually gotten themselves to a point where they will always try as opposed to laying there. Those who haven’t felt near death on the bottom so many times don’t. I see this as similar to humble’s scenario.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

I never claimed that Overeem had world class grappling, just that it is very good. I agree you will never see a guy like Nog ever stop trying to apply his grappling, but for the most part if Overeem’s conditioning is as improved as he claims it is compared to his time at 205, i dont think anyone in today’s HW division is gonna be the one that takes his will away like that on the ground. Furthermore, i do believe his added strength and size will only add to his ability to defend take downs and get back to his feet. Some people (like Frank Mir) dont have the physique to hold that muscle and still move like they used to. Overeem has a very long lean, athletic physique that in my opinion would only benefit from his added strength and size.
[/quote]

I get where you are coming from, and largely agree. He is much better at heavyweight. His amazing K-1 run compared to being the fighter who got taken out by Lidell proves it to me.

I do think that Barnett, Bigfoot, or Cormier could all pose issues for him on the ground. I have serious doubts that Bigfoot could get him there however.

Regards,

Robert A

PS Almost New Years. Cheers.

152

[quote]Kanada wrote:

That is utter bullshit. I will not deny that pressure and money, maybe marital issues were present. Surely there must be an underlying mental illness. But bottom line steroids are dangerous and pretending they aren’t so we can legalize them to get jacked is fucked up. Lesnar is sicker than he shuold be because of steroids. Benoit was more unstale than he should have been because of steroids (though in both cases, especially benoit, concussions must have played a factor) eddie guererro died from steroids, andre the giant shortened his life from steroids. Lately we are finally seeing how steroids in the NHL are hurting people, and I would easily say steroids damage your brain when dealing with concussions. Steroids are bad, don’t pretend their not you fuckhead. I do not give 2 shits about “research”, because we still think weed causes mania and paranoia and a lack of motivation. In a way, it does, but it in no way makes you lazy as much as alcohol didn’t make you get in a bar fight.

If you are willing to suggest that high levels of steroids and HGH do not cause intestinal and mental issues your fucking retarded[/quote]

What’s with the name calling, little man? Bad day for you? I almost derailed this thread and that was not my intention. Your level of immaturity in your comment is almost sad.

So you admit there is pressure, money troubles, marital issues and a mental issue as well as brain damage (which the autopsy actually showed!) but it is the roidz that made him do it? You contradict yourself can’t you see that? You assume all these things but then blame the roids which have no track record of causing a change in psychological state like meth, pcp, cocaine, heroine, painkillers, brain damage and antidepressants can do for example.

I realize it is not possible to really have a conversation with you because you do not give "2 shits’ about research. You are a young man in college who knows the truth and does not want to be confused by the facts, it seems like.

Anabolic steroids are administered to men, women and children who suffer from immune system deseases like aids so their system is strong enough to deal with the disease! Lesnar is not sicker due to steroids, they don’t work that way. Their side effects don’t work that way.

You seem very passionate about it, and I admire that, name calling or not, but you are wrong and they way you communicated your uneducated opinion will get you nowhere.

I did not say steroids need to be legalized so we can all get jacked, I did not say they are as healthy as an orange either. My point is that steroids are made to be the bad guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Docs are trying to get their face on tv perpetuating the wrong info. How can you agree with that?

Benoit did not kill his family due to steroids. Lesnar did not get sick due to steroids. Those are the facts if you know anything about steroids. that is all I was trying to point out. Many steroids are indeed bad for you, unless you are ill and the only thing that will help is that steroid. The were not invented for sports initially, they were invented to help victims of extreme trauma (war victims) and children who were malnourished and underdeveloped. They are currently saving lives of burn victims, aids patients and a host of other sick people.

I am not advocating we should all be juiced to the neck, not at all. They are simply not the bad guy they are made out to be.

My apologies to all if you feel I derailed this thread. Did not mean to. I work with people who really need them and have to face constant hurdles due to their use even though it is really benefiting them.

153

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

He is a NATIONAL class wrestler. He was champ of a shallow division. His size and strength pretty much mean that he was very effective at using his wrestling, even if I think he was less technical than Coleman, Randleman, or Kerr in terms of wrestling skill.

He also displayed a very good gameplan from the top in shutting down Mir in their second fight.

My opinion of Brock was that he didn’t “deserve” the title shot, but he won the fight so I cannot say too much bad about him.

He clearly beat Mir in their rematch. He managed to make it through Carwin, which was pretty impressive considering what Carwin had done at the time.

I was surprised he did not try to shoot for more takedowns against Overeem, but it was a good match up. Overeem’s K-1 win puts him at world class for kickboxing, but his MMA record going into last night was of being a 25-11 205’er who went undefeated by moving up in weight and fighting lackluster competition. Prior to last night his best win at heavyweight was Werdum, and his stand up did not look unbeatable in that fight. I am not sure destroying Buentillo, James Thompson, Tod Duffee and the rest is proof that he is not the same fighter who was beaten by Shogun and Diet Nog twice each. If you are as down on Lesnar as you seem, than might you argue he still has to prove himself as a top five MMA heavyweight?

My feeling about Overeem is that last night’s showing and his K-1 wins prove that anyone at heavyweight who stands in front of him is going to be in massive trouble. His Werdum fight makes me wonder if he can handle the threat of takedowns mixed with striking, something Lesnar did not try in his brief time against Reem, or a fighter who uses jabs and straights well. Werdum caught him a few times in their fight.

I think Cain may be a threat, because of his hands and ability to mix strikes with takedowns. JDS may be able to do well with his jab, but I would want to know if he has a ground game to threaten with. I think Carwin would be in serious trouble against Overeem. Even though Carwin has great power, Lesnar actually tries to jabe MORE than Carwin and I think trying to match power shots with Reem would make for a short night.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

If Carwin traded power shots with Overeem Carwin would win. The guy throw’s one hit ko’s from either hand coming from literally any concievable angle. Overeem is a beast, but their power is on completely different levels. Carwin has the most 1 shot power in all of MMA. Not saying he’s the best striker [he isn’t] or best boxer [he isn’t], just that no one can sit there and trade with him. He connects flush, it’s over. [/quote]

Strongly disagree with this one. Both guys hit hard as fuck, i cant say definitively who hits harder, but if Carwin stands and bangs with Overeem, Carwin gets smashed, even worse than he did against JDS.

BTW, Carwin hit Lesnar with literally dozens upon dozens of power shots from top position with all his weight behind them, and couldnt put him away. Overeem would smash Carwin. [/quote]

You’re joking, right? Carwin landed ONE semi-flush shot all night, the choppy left that dropped Lesnar. Those “power shots from the top with all his weight behind him” landed on Lesnar’s forearms as he covered his face. I honestly don’t know how we’re arguing this. Carwin has knocked dudes out cold with a straight right from his hand a foot out in front of his face. No torque, no looper, just a quick flick that dropped another 250lb pro fighter. NO ONE ELSE in MMA can do that.

Yes, I’m arguing this at 10:30 on NYE. Gotta work at 7 am and I’m bitter, haha.

154

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
diverticulitis
lots of good reading out there on how steroids or other anabolic agents
can promote it [/quote]

sorry, but no. the kind of steroids the MD’s are talking about are NOT ANABOLIC steroids.
The results indicating steroids come from research where the mean age of patients was 65 years old. Those men do not take anabolic steroids, they take a host of steroids to deal with other issues.

This is akin to the Chris Benoit case where doctors also shot their mouth off about something they know dick about. Benoit was found to have Xanax, hydrocodone, and an elevated level of testosterone, caused by a synthetic form of the hormone, in his system.
They blamed the fact he killed his wife and son, before killing himself, on the synthetic hormone in his system, because, of course, it was roid rage that made him do it. Dozens of doctors were interviewed on tv parroting this crap.

Dozens of arm chair physicians, wanting to see their name on the interwebz are doing the same in regards to Lesnar as well.

Benoit went nuts because he suffered from severe depression and used Xanax which can cause suicidal thoughts and hydrocodone, which can cause hallucinations. Now look up the side effects of steroids, anabolic steroids and NOWHERE do you see anything remotely indicating psychotic episodes OR causing diverticulitis.

Lesnar might be juiced to the neck, no issue with that at all, might have been since he was 16, doesn’t matter either but it did NOT cause diverticulitis and ANABOLIC steroids do not mask it either. It is very rare a young man gets it, granted, but not impossible. It is caused by feces getting trapped, that’s all. They don’t even know why some people develop it and why some don’t.

[/quote]

That is utter bullshit. I will not deny that pressure and money, maybe marital issues were present. Surely there must be an underlying mental illness. But bottom line steroids are dangerous and pretending they aren’t so we can legalize them to get jacked is fucked up. Lesnar is sicker than he shuold be because of steroids. Benoit was more unstale than he should have been because of steroids (though in both cases, especially benoit, concussions must have played a factor) eddie guererro died from steroids, andre the giant shortened his life from steroids. Lately we are finally seeing how steroids in the NHL are hurting people, and I would easily say steroids damage your brain when dealing with concussions. Steroids are bad, don’t pretend their not you fuckhead. I do not give 2 shits about “research”, because we still think weed causes mania and paranoia and a lack of motivation. In a way, it does, but it in no way makes you lazy as much as alcohol didn’t make you get in a bar fight.

If you are willing to suggest that high levels of steroids and HGH do not cause intestinal and mental issues your fucking retarded[/quote]

This is a very poorly thought out and contradictory argument. The painkillers Benoit was on also fucked him, and were legal (prescription?). You talk about steroids being dangerous, then bring up weed and alcohol, one legal, the other prescription in select states.

Come on son. I’ve yet to try this stuff, but I’d like to be respected as an adult enough for me to make decisions regarding my own body.

155

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

No, but a division 1 NCAA championship does, as well as more than 100 Div 1 wins with only 5 losses in your collegiate career.

Dont speak on subjects you are completely ignorant of. [/quote]

So Kurt Angle would make an awesome MMA fighter too. No, he prob would, size, steroids, media presence, fan base.

An undefeated record in college is elite, hence why Steve Neal played for the patriots and Brock played for Vince Mcmahnon. I dunno Steve’s record (151-10), but American collegiate athletic are also not the be all end all of wrestling. (neal won an olympic gold). Just go count the Americans who won the Olympic god medal, and you will see very few given this boards adoration of them (honestly I mean mma’s adoration of them, I’m just makin a point)
[/quote]

Word. I’ve read that he wasn’t a particularly technical folkstyle guy either. Like kmnyc said, his division wasn’t special.

156

To the two idiots who think I blamed steroids.

“That is utter bullshit. I will not deny that pressure and money, maybe marital issues were present. Surely there must be an underlying mental illness. But bottom line steroids are dangerous and pretending they aren’t so we can legalize them to get jacked is fucked up. Lesnar is sicker than he shuold be because of steroids.”

There we have me saying there is a myriad of issues here, but we cannot dismiss steroids as a significant variable in the progress of the diseases of Brock Lesnar, Chris Benoit, and many contacct athletes. Fucker

Edit: first idiot is reasonable, second idiot is now a soloist

157

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:

That is utter bullshit. I will not deny that pressure and money, maybe marital issues were present. Surely there must be an underlying mental illness. But bottom line steroids are dangerous and pretending they aren’t so we can legalize them to get jacked is fucked up. Lesnar is sicker than he shuold be because of steroids. Benoit was more unstale than he should have been because of steroids (though in both cases, especially benoit, concussions must have played a factor) eddie guererro died from steroids, andre the giant shortened his life from steroids. Lately we are finally seeing how steroids in the NHL are hurting people, and I would easily say steroids damage your brain when dealing with concussions. Steroids are bad, don’t pretend their not you fuckhead. I do not give 2 shits about “research”, because we still think weed causes mania and paranoia and a lack of motivation. In a way, it does, but it in no way makes you lazy as much as alcohol didn’t make you get in a bar fight.

If you are willing to suggest that high levels of steroids and HGH do not cause intestinal and mental issues your fucking retarded[/quote]

What’s with the name calling, little man? Bad day for you? I almost derailed this thread and that was not my intention. Your level of immaturity in your comment is almost sad.

So you admit there is pressure, money troubles, marital issues and a mental issue as well as brain damage (which the autopsy actually showed!) but it is the roidz that made him do it? You contradict yourself can’t you see that? You assume all these things but then blame the roids which have no track record of causing a change in psychological state like meth, pcp, cocaine, heroine, painkillers, brain damage and antidepressants can do for example.

I realize it is not possible to really have a conversation with you because you do not give "2 shits’ about research. You are a young man in college who knows the truth and does not want to be confused by the facts, it seems like.

Anabolic steroids are administered to men, women and children who suffer from immune system deseases like aids so their system is strong enough to deal with the disease! Lesnar is not sicker due to steroids, they don’t work that way. Their side effects don’t work that way.

You seem very passionate about it, and I admire that, name calling or not, but you are wrong and they way you communicated your uneducated opinion will get you nowhere.

I did not say steroids need to be legalized so we can all get jacked, I did not say they are as healthy as an orange either. My point is that steroids are made to be the bad guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Docs are trying to get their face on tv perpetuating the wrong info. How can you agree with that?

Benoit did not kill his family due to steroids. Lesnar did not get sick due to steroids. Those are the facts if you know anything about steroids. that is all I was trying to point out. Many steroids are indeed bad for you, unless you are ill and the only thing that will help is that steroid. The were not invented for sports initially, they were invented to help victims of extreme trauma (war victims) and children who were malnourished and underdeveloped. They are currently saving lives of burn victims, aids patients and a host of other sick people.

I am not advocating we should all be juiced to the neck, not at all. They are simply not the bad guy they are made out to be.

My apologies to all if you feel I derailed this thread. Did not mean to. I work with people who really need them and have to face constant hurdles due to their use even though it is really benefiting them. [/quote]

Dude,

I should make it clear that anyone can and should be allowed to take steroids, they are not intrinsically bad and in many cases even the purely aesthetic affects are definitely worth the effort in modulating them

However,

Athletes are notoriously terrible at managing their lives, and are extremely likely to abuse them. We all know that entire threads can consist of contradictory Pubmed articles, but it should not take a degree in Psych (which I don’t have) or Bio (which I don’t have) or Chemistry (which I don’t have to realize that historically (which I am close too) speaking athletes, steroids, concussions, painkillers, and mood adjusters in combination are all bad news, especially when a predisposition to illness is present. I totally rage out to see how well you will clarify your statement, you did it well but I think you got the wrong impression of me as a raging anti-steroidy guy, which I am not. I just hate when things are deemed as irrelevant, when all rational thought points to drugs which alter the chemical composition of your hormonal profile and neurotransmitter communication as having significant negative side effects, especially if not properly controlled (as in the case of an athlete needing to push boundaries) or in the presence of exacerbating factors (such as a genetic illness, which may or may not be present). Hence, Brock Lesnor made a sound decision to retire, as it is no longer a question of whether he can win a fight, but whether he can survive a win, a la Ali.

However

Is this a marketing ploy (by Brocky)?

158

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

No, but a division 1 NCAA championship does, as well as more than 100 Div 1 wins with only 5 losses in your collegiate career.

Dont speak on subjects you are completely ignorant of. [/quote]

So Kurt Angle would make an awesome MMA fighter too. No, he prob would, size, steroids, media presence, fan base.

An undefeated record in college is elite, hence why Steve Neal played for the patriots and Brock played for Vince Mcmahnon. I dunno Steve’s record (151-10), but American collegiate athletic are also not the be all end all of wrestling. (neal won an olympic gold). Just go count the Americans who won the Olympic god medal, and you will see very few given this boards adoration of them (honestly I mean mma’s adoration of them, I’m just makin a point)
[/quote]

Word. I’ve read that he wasn’t a particularly technical folkstyle guy either. Like kmnyc said, his division wasn’t special.[/quote]

I’m speculating, don’t prematurely lump anyone in with my opinion unless they do so themselves.

159

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
diverticulitis
lots of good reading out there on how steroids or other anabolic agents
can promote it [/quote]

sorry, but no. the kind of steroids the MD’s are talking about are NOT ANABOLIC steroids.
The results indicating steroids come from research where the mean age of patients was 65 years old. Those men do not take anabolic steroids, they take a host of steroids to deal with other issues.

This is akin to the Chris Benoit case where doctors also shot their mouth off about something they know dick about. Benoit was found to have Xanax, hydrocodone, and an elevated level of testosterone, caused by a synthetic form of the hormone, in his system.
They blamed the fact he killed his wife and son, before killing himself, on the synthetic hormone in his system, because, of course, it was roid rage that made him do it. Dozens of doctors were interviewed on tv parroting this crap.

Dozens of arm chair physicians, wanting to see their name on the interwebz are doing the same in regards to Lesnar as well.

Benoit went nuts because he suffered from severe depression and used Xanax which can cause suicidal thoughts and hydrocodone, which can cause hallucinations. Now look up the side effects of steroids, anabolic steroids and NOWHERE do you see anything remotely indicating psychotic episodes OR causing diverticulitis.

Lesnar might be juiced to the neck, no issue with that at all, might have been since he was 16, doesn’t matter either but it did NOT cause diverticulitis and ANABOLIC steroids do not mask it either. It is very rare a young man gets it, granted, but not impossible. It is caused by feces getting trapped, that’s all. They don’t even know why some people develop it and why some don’t.

[/quote]

That is utter bullshit. I will not deny that pressure and money, maybe marital issues were present. Surely there must be an underlying mental illness. But bottom line steroids are dangerous and pretending they aren’t so we can legalize them to get jacked is fucked up. Lesnar is sicker than he shuold be because of steroids. Benoit was more unstale than he should have been because of steroids (though in both cases, especially benoit, concussions must have played a factor) eddie guererro died from steroids, andre the giant shortened his life from steroids. Lately we are finally seeing how steroids in the NHL are hurting people, and I would easily say steroids damage your brain when dealing with concussions. Steroids are bad, don’t pretend their not you fuckhead. I do not give 2 shits about “research”, because we still think weed causes mania and paranoia and a lack of motivation. In a way, it does, but it in no way makes you lazy as much as alcohol didn’t make you get in a bar fight.

If you are willing to suggest that high levels of steroids and HGH do not cause intestinal and mental issues your fucking retarded[/quote]

This is a very poorly thought out and contradictory argument. The painkillers Benoit was on also fucked him, and were legal (prescription?). You talk about steroids being dangerous, then bring up weed and alcohol, one legal, the other prescription in select states.

Come on son. I’ve yet to try this stuff, but I’d like to be respected as an adult enough for me to make decisions regarding my own body.
[/quote]

Annnnnnnnnnndddd

the fact that we have pretty conclusive research on the myriad of ways in which weed isn’t the devils crop and merely a distracting high has not stopped any american official from demonizing it, so research and official designations are hardly worth the money I wouldn’t pay for most perscription meds. This includes tylenol when my future child has a fever, because while I’m not crazy, it isn’t that crazy to wonder if there is a link between tylenol and diabetes, or asthma, is it?

I wish people had to pass a rhetoric class before making any significant life decisions.

160

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

No, but a division 1 NCAA championship does, as well as more than 100 Div 1 wins with only 5 losses in your collegiate career.

Dont speak on subjects you are completely ignorant of. [/quote]

So Kurt Angle would make an awesome MMA fighter too. No, he prob would, size, steroids, media presence, fan base.

An undefeated record in college is elite, hence why Steve Neal played for the patriots and Brock played for Vince Mcmahnon. I dunno Steve’s record (151-10), but American collegiate athletic are also not the be all end all of wrestling. (neal won an olympic gold). Just go count the Americans who won the Olympic god medal, and you will see very few given this boards adoration of them (honestly I mean mma’s adoration of them, I’m just makin a point)
[/quote]

If you win an american championship, it is impressive. Nobody said even once in this thread that it was the end-all-be-all. You are obviously stuck on some anti-american bullshit based on the last few posts ive seen in this thread. Go fuck yourself. if you have nothing intelligent to put forth, dont say anything at all.