Lesnar vs Overeem

Training
121

[quote]humble wrote:
Meh Carwin… lucky heavy handed guy. He doesn’t have anywhere near the technical ability of overeem.
JDS and CAIN too. Actually I think Cain is more technical than JDS, JDS is just a heavy handed guy and caught him. I don’t see him catching overeem at all. As rogue said, I think people just don’t read styles too well around here. No JDS, Cain or Mir can give Reem a hard time and that’s being purely objective.

Only person who will give Reem a hard time is a hard as nails stand up guy with good ground and take down defense who also has the same reach. Reems body punishment is too much for any MMA guy to handle. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. They’re no where near conditioned enough. The Dutch style training, drilling and conditioning (body especially) is oodles above that of usa style training.[/quote]

You’re as one-sided towards Overeem as ZEB is towards wrestlers. Did you really call Carwin a “lucky heavy handed guy”. What? Purely objective? Do you actually read what you write?

122

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
I wouldn’t count JDS out. If it were just hands JDS would most definitely win. JDS has a good jab and is great at using straight punches to keep opponents outside. It’s really going to be a question of if Overeem can get inside or possibly utilize leg kicks outside or whether JDS can keep him outside and out strike him with his hands. In the Lesnar fight Overeem just got tired of Lesnar running backward and ran in to clinch (no punches or setup) and throw knees. He wouldn’t be able to do that against JDS. To be honest I don’t know or have a clue who will win or had the advantage here.

Whiteflash, JDS and Cain aren’t really overrated. They are really the best in the division atm along with Overeem. JDS has probably the best hands in the division. I don’t understand how they would be considered overrated.[/quote]

Everyone JDS has beaten has been has-beens, never was’s or has just come off major layoffs due to serious surgeries. Also, his power is way overrated. You can’t call someone a “knockout artist” if they’ve never actually knocked anyone out. TKO’s due to ref stoppage don’t count.

123

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:

BTW, I would love to see Overeem fight Mir after Frank has been bashing him constantly leading up to the Brock fight. That might look worse than the Carwin/Mir fight. [/quote]

I thought this immediately after the fight as well. The only person i’d rather seem Ubereem fight than JDS is Mir, simply because i love seeing Mir get smashed a la Brock/Carwin. Mir wouldnt make it any longer than Brock did.

At this point i dont see anyone in the HW division posing much of a threat to Alistair other than JDS and Cain, and to be honest i’d have to say that stylistically, Alistair should have the advantage in both those fights. No i am not just jumping on the wagon now that Overeem made his dominant UFC debut, i’ve been a Reem fan ever since he beat up my boy Cro Cop and turned his balls into ovaries. [/quote]

I think Cain would lose to Overeem too. I don’t think he could get it to the ground before Overeem turned his lights out, and standing with him would be suicide. Overeem and JDS have that Prime Liddell thing going, strong TDD and good to great striking, plus the ability to avoid submissions (especially in Overeem’s case, he is pretty well versed in subs). That is a nasty combination for anyone to deal with. [/quote]

Yeah, Cain just gives up way too much size and strength to overeem. That plus the fact that Overeem is no slouch on the ground and has great TDD (not to mention something like 19 submission wins)

And I said going into the JDS fight that Cains standup was horribly overrated, and he never outstruck anyone worth shit up to that point. The guy got dropped what, 3 times in the Kongo fight? which spent like all of 1 minute on the feet. And then gets KO’d by JDS in one minute. I think Reem’s got that one.

And in response to WhiteFlash, as with any MMA fighter, bandwagons will change rather quickly following a fight. No surprise there. However I’ve been on the Overeem bandwagon for a couple years now and have been hoping for a long time to see him fight for the UFC title. The Lesnar fight only intrigued me because the only unanswered question regarding Overeems game at HW imo was how he would react if a guy just as big as him could get on top of him. After watching last night, i dont think he has anything to worry about.

Also, am i the only one who feels bad for Lesnar? So what the guys a showman, if you watched his interviews and behind the scenes stuff he always seemed like a badass, down to earth guy to me. Sucks to see him so devastated by the loss.

124

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

125

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Meh Carwin… lucky heavy handed guy. He doesn’t have anywhere near the technical ability of overeem.
JDS and CAIN too. Actually I think Cain is more technical than JDS, JDS is just a heavy handed guy and caught him. I don’t see him catching overeem at all. As rogue said, I think people just don’t read styles too well around here. No JDS, Cain or Mir can give Reem a hard time and that’s being purely objective.

Only person who will give Reem a hard time is a hard as nails stand up guy with good ground and take down defense who also has the same reach. Reems body punishment is too much for any MMA guy to handle. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. They’re no where near conditioned enough. The Dutch style training, drilling and conditioning (body especially) is oodles above that of usa style training.[/quote]

You’re as one-sided towards Overeem as ZEB is towards wrestlers. Did you really call Carwin a “lucky heavy handed guy”. What? Purely objective? Do you actually read what you write?[/quote]

Show me Carwin’s amazing MMA skills, highlight vid, training vid, fight vid or whatever. He’s a big heavy handed guy, not much else. He wont do much else in MMA because he cant and he knows it. We’ll watch him fade more than he has already

I’m not much of an overeem follower but I rate him oodles above what the UFC has to offer him.

All the ufc heavies are lambs to the slaughter at the moment.

126

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
I wouldn’t count JDS out. If it were just hands JDS would most definitely win. JDS has a good jab and is great at using straight punches to keep opponents outside. It’s really going to be a question of if Overeem can get inside or possibly utilize leg kicks outside or whether JDS can keep him outside and out strike him with his hands. In the Lesnar fight Overeem just got tired of Lesnar running backward and ran in to clinch (no punches or setup) and throw knees. He wouldn’t be able to do that against JDS. To be honest I don’t know or have a clue who will win or had the advantage here.

Whiteflash, JDS and Cain aren’t really overrated. They are really the best in the division atm along with Overeem. JDS has probably the best hands in the division. I don’t understand how they would be considered overrated.[/quote]

Everyone JDS has beaten has been has-beens, never was’s or has just come off major layoffs due to serious surgeries. Also, his power is way overrated. You can’t call someone a “knockout artist” if they’ve never actually knocked anyone out. TKO’s due to ref stoppage don’t count.[/quote]That’s how fighting works though. There are very few guys knocked out. Most get hurt and can’t recover. It’s very similar to boxing and guys in boxing still get a KO added to their record if the guy doesn’t get up within 10 seconds and is still conscious.

I mean you can tell the guy is very good with his technique, timing, and distance.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
The Lesnar fight only intrigued me because the only unanswered question regarding Overeems game at HW imo was how he would react if a guy just as big as him could get on top of him. After watching last night, i dont think he has anything to worry about.[/quote]
Lesnar didn’t really test Overeem’s takedown defense in that fight. Cain would offer more challenge.

127

[quote]humble wrote:
I dunno, I’m just used to the hard hard conditioning of stand up fighters, brutal conditioning of taking punishment for 12 rounds, blows to the head and body until everything is ruptured on the inside and they still have this impeccable spirit fighting on.
I can respect Brock tried but he just lacks that spirit and to me, I can’t take a fighter seriously if they lack that.

Cerrone certainly showed it tonight despite being schooled. That is inspiring and respectable in this sport.

Mma has too many years left before fighters become as hardened as seasoned stand fighters. It’s only under 20 years old so it is understandable but the ones that will make the best progress are the stand up guys who can adapt amazing wrestling/bjj skills, not the other way around as hyped by fags like goldberg and rogan.[/quote]

This is a load of shit. The Nog bros, Shogun, Fedor, Cerrone, Condit, Frankie Edgar, the Diaz bros, Diego Sanchez, Chris Lytle, Mark Hominick, Urijah Faber, John Fitch, Rich Franklin, Anderson Silva, Chris Leben, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Randy Couture, Cain Velasquez…That is a VERY abridged list of MMA fighters with just as much if not more guts and grit than anyone in combat sports. I could go on and on all day.

Yeah kickboxing and boxing have and will always have some badass dudes but the age of a sport has nothing to do with how tough someones mettle is, that comes from individual willpower/strength and life experiences.

128

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
I wouldn’t count JDS out. If it were just hands JDS would most definitely win. JDS has a good jab and is great at using straight punches to keep opponents outside. It’s really going to be a question of if Overeem can get inside or possibly utilize leg kicks outside or whether JDS can keep him outside and out strike him with his hands. In the Lesnar fight Overeem just got tired of Lesnar running backward and ran in to clinch (no punches or setup) and throw knees. He wouldn’t be able to do that against JDS. To be honest I don’t know or have a clue who will win or had the advantage here.

Whiteflash, JDS and Cain aren’t really overrated. They are really the best in the division atm along with Overeem. JDS has probably the best hands in the division. I don’t understand how they would be considered overrated.[/quote]

Everyone JDS has beaten has been has-beens, never was’s or has just come off major layoffs due to serious surgeries. Also, his power is way overrated. You can’t call someone a “knockout artist” if they’ve never actually knocked anyone out. TKO’s due to ref stoppage don’t count.[/quote]That’s how fighting works though. There are very few guys knocked out. Most get hurt and can’t recover. It’s very similar to boxing and guys in boxing still get a KO added to their record if the guy doesn’t get up within 10 seconds and is still conscious.

I mean you can tell the guy is very good with his technique, timing, and distance.

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
The Lesnar fight only intrigued me because the only unanswered question regarding Overeems game at HW imo was how he would react if a guy just as big as him could get on top of him. After watching last night, i dont think he has anything to worry about.[/quote]
Lesnar didn’t really test Overeem’s takedown defense in that fight. Cain would offer more challenge.[/quote]

Im aware of that, but IMO Cain poses no more of a threat than Lesnar. Lesnar was the only guy in the UFC that i thought could pose a threat IF he could secure a TD and keep Overeem there. If Cain can take Overeem down, and yes i said if, he will not be able to handle him like he did all the other cans. Overeem will KO him.

129

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

No, but a division 1 NCAA championship does, as well as more than 100 Div 1 wins with only 5 losses in your collegiate career.

Dont speak on subjects you are completely ignorant of.

130

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Meh Carwin… lucky heavy handed guy. He doesn’t have anywhere near the technical ability of overeem.
JDS and CAIN too. Actually I think Cain is more technical than JDS, JDS is just a heavy handed guy and caught him. I don’t see him catching overeem at all. As rogue said, I think people just don’t read styles too well around here. No JDS, Cain or Mir can give Reem a hard time and that’s being purely objective.

Only person who will give Reem a hard time is a hard as nails stand up guy with good ground and take down defense who also has the same reach. Reems body punishment is too much for any MMA guy to handle. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. They’re no where near conditioned enough. The Dutch style training, drilling and conditioning (body especially) is oodles above that of usa style training.[/quote]

You’re as one-sided towards Overeem as ZEB is towards wrestlers. Did you really call Carwin a “lucky heavy handed guy”. What? Purely objective? Do you actually read what you write?[/quote]

Show me Carwin’s amazing MMA skills, highlight vid, training vid, fight vid or whatever. He’s a big heavy handed guy, not much else. He wont do much else in MMA because he cant and he knows it. We’ll watch him fade more than he has already

I’m not much of an overeem follower but I rate him oodles above what the UFC has to offer him.

All the ufc heavies are lambs to the slaughter at the moment.
[/quote]

You want to see Carwins skills? how about look at ever fight he’s ever had except for the Lesnar and JDS fights, none of which went past the first round.

Again, you are completely ignorant when it comes to MMA, please go back to masturbating with a kick boxing glove.

131

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
I dunno, I’m just used to the hard hard conditioning of stand up fighters, brutal conditioning of taking punishment for 12 rounds, blows to the head and body until everything is ruptured on the inside and they still have this impeccable spirit fighting on.
I can respect Brock tried but he just lacks that spirit and to me, I can’t take a fighter seriously if they lack that.

Cerrone certainly showed it tonight despite being schooled. That is inspiring and respectable in this sport.

Mma has too many years left before fighters become as hardened as seasoned stand fighters. It’s only under 20 years old so it is understandable but the ones that will make the best progress are the stand up guys who can adapt amazing wrestling/bjj skills, not the other way around as hyped by fags like goldberg and rogan.[/quote]

This is a load of shit. The Nog bros, Shogun, Fedor, Cerrone, Condit, Frankie Edgar, the Diaz bros, Diego Sanchez, Chris Lytle, Mark Hominick, Urijah Faber, John Fitch, Rich Franklin, Anderson Silva, Chris Leben, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Randy Couture, Cain Velasquez…That is a VERY abridged list of MMA fighters with just as much if not more guts and grit than anyone in combat sports. I could go on and on all day.

Yeah kickboxing and boxing have and will always have some badass dudes but the age of a sport has nothing to do with how tough someones mettle is, that comes from individual willpower/strength and life experiences. [/quote]
He’s sort of right. Striking is going to dominate MMA for awhile (at least at the higher levels). I don’t know, grappling might get better and there might be a shift back to grappling. Wrestling and BJJ were pretty dominate but you’re starting to see a lot better striking and more guys able to defend takedowns.

In general MMA has a lot of potential for growth and a lot of fighters today still make a lot of mistakes, a lot less than before, but still there is a lot of room to grow.

Humble may be ignorant of grappling and stuff, but if he’s training Dutch style Muay Thai he’s going to be pretty knowledgeable about striking.

132

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
I dunno, I’m just used to the hard hard conditioning of stand up fighters, brutal conditioning of taking punishment for 12 rounds, blows to the head and body until everything is ruptured on the inside and they still have this impeccable spirit fighting on.
I can respect Brock tried but he just lacks that spirit and to me, I can’t take a fighter seriously if they lack that.

Cerrone certainly showed it tonight despite being schooled. That is inspiring and respectable in this sport.

Mma has too many years left before fighters become as hardened as seasoned stand fighters. It’s only under 20 years old so it is understandable but the ones that will make the best progress are the stand up guys who can adapt amazing wrestling/bjj skills, not the other way around as hyped by fags like goldberg and rogan.[/quote]

This is a load of shit. The Nog bros, Shogun, Fedor, Cerrone, Condit, Frankie Edgar, the Diaz bros, Diego Sanchez, Chris Lytle, Mark Hominick, Urijah Faber, John Fitch, Rich Franklin, Anderson Silva, Chris Leben, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Randy Couture, Cain Velasquez…That is a VERY abridged list of MMA fighters with just as much if not more guts and grit than anyone in combat sports. I could go on and on all day.

Yeah kickboxing and boxing have and will always have some badass dudes but the age of a sport has nothing to do with how tough someones mettle is, that comes from individual willpower/strength and life experiences. [/quote]
He’s sort of right. Striking is going to dominate MMA for awhile (at least at the higher levels). I don’t know, grappling might get better and there might be a shift back to grappling. Wrestling and BJJ were pretty dominate but you’re starting to see a lot better striking and more guys able to defend takedowns.

In general MMA has a lot of potential for growth and a lot of fighters today still make a lot of mistakes, a lot less than before, but still there is a lot of room to grow.

Humble may be ignorant of grappling and stuff, but if he’s training Dutch style Muay Thai he’s going to be pretty knowledgeable about striking.[/quote]

Im not debating stylistic dominance in MMA, he basically said MMA fighters arent as tough as pure strikers. Some are always gonna be tougher than others but there are a good deal of fucking tough MMA fighters.

I will admit that on the whole at a PROFESSIONAL level, kickboxers probably do typically endure more pain on a daily basis as they need to be conditioned to it.

Also, of all the great strikers out there who are currently dominant in MMA, (Anderson Silva, Overeem, JDS, Aldo, Machida) each one of those guys still has EXCEPTIONAL ground games. Without that, none of those guys would be where they are. I think a lot of the difference is when you get guys who are equally dominant in grappling like GSP, it is easier to survive in a grappling match when you are outclassed than it is in a striking match. So inevitably dominant strikers end up with more brutal or flashy finishes than dominant grapplers do.

133

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

He is a NATIONAL class wrestler. He was champ of a shallow division. His size and strength pretty much mean that he was very effective at using his wrestling, even if I think he was less technical than Coleman, Randleman, or Kerr in terms of wrestling skill.

He also displayed a very good gameplan from the top in shutting down Mir in their second fight.

My opinion of Brock was that he didn’t “deserve” the title shot, but he won the fight so I cannot say too much bad about him.

He clearly beat Mir in their rematch. He managed to make it through Carwin, which was pretty impressive considering what Carwin had done at the time.

I was surprised he did not try to shoot for more takedowns against Overeem, but it was a good match up. Overeem’s K-1 win puts him at world class for kickboxing, but his MMA record going into last night was of being a 25-11 205’er who went undefeated by moving up in weight and fighting lackluster competition. Prior to last night his best win at heavyweight was Werdum, and his stand up did not look unbeatable in that fight. I am not sure destroying Buentillo, James Thompson, Tod Duffee and the rest is proof that he is not the same fighter who was beaten by Shogun and Diet Nog twice each. If you are as down on Lesnar as you seem, than might you argue he still has to prove himself as a top five MMA heavyweight?

My feeling about Overeem is that last night’s showing and his K-1 wins prove that anyone at heavyweight who stands in front of him is going to be in massive trouble. His Werdum fight makes me wonder if he can handle the threat of takedowns mixed with striking, something Lesnar did not try in his brief time against Reem, or a fighter who uses jabs and straights well. Werdum caught him a few times in their fight.

I think Cain may be a threat, because of his hands and ability to mix strikes with takedowns. JDS may be able to do well with his jab, but I would want to know if he has a ground game to threaten with. I think Carwin would be in serious trouble against Overeem. Even though Carwin has great power, Lesnar actually tries to jabe MORE than Carwin and I think trying to match power shots with Reem would make for a short night.

Regards,

Robert A

134

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
I dunno, I’m just used to the hard hard conditioning of stand up fighters, brutal conditioning of taking punishment for 12 rounds, blows to the head and body until everything is ruptured on the inside and they still have this impeccable spirit fighting on.
I can respect Brock tried but he just lacks that spirit and to me, I can’t take a fighter seriously if they lack that.

Cerrone certainly showed it tonight despite being schooled. That is inspiring and respectable in this sport.

Mma has too many years left before fighters become as hardened as seasoned stand fighters. It’s only under 20 years old so it is understandable but the ones that will make the best progress are the stand up guys who can adapt amazing wrestling/bjj skills, not the other way around as hyped by fags like goldberg and rogan.[/quote]

This is a load of shit. The Nog bros, Shogun, Fedor, Cerrone, Condit, Frankie Edgar, the Diaz bros, Diego Sanchez, Chris Lytle, Mark Hominick, Urijah Faber, John Fitch, Rich Franklin, Anderson Silva, Chris Leben, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Randy Couture, Cain Velasquez…That is a VERY abridged list of MMA fighters with just as much if not more guts and grit than anyone in combat sports. I could go on and on all day.

Yeah kickboxing and boxing have and will always have some badass dudes but the age of a sport has nothing to do with how tough someones mettle is, that comes from individual willpower/strength and life experiences. [/quote]
He’s sort of right. Striking is going to dominate MMA for awhile (at least at the higher levels). I don’t know, grappling might get better and there might be a shift back to grappling. Wrestling and BJJ were pretty dominate but you’re starting to see a lot better striking and more guys able to defend takedowns.

In general MMA has a lot of potential for growth and a lot of fighters today still make a lot of mistakes, a lot less than before, but still there is a lot of room to grow.

Humble may be ignorant of grappling and stuff, but if he’s training Dutch style Muay Thai he’s going to be pretty knowledgeable about striking.[/quote]

Im not debating stylistic dominance in MMA, he basically said MMA fighters arent as tough as pure strikers. Some are always gonna be tougher than others but there are a good deal of fucking tough MMA fighters.

I will admit that on the whole at a PROFESSIONAL level, kickboxers probably do typically endure more pain on a daily basis as they need to be conditioned to it.

Also, of all the great strikers out there who are currently dominant in MMA, (Anderson Silva, Overeem, JDS, Aldo, Machida) each one of those guys still has EXCEPTIONAL ground games. Without that, none of those guys would be where they are. I think a lot of the difference is when you get guys who are equally dominant in grappling like GSP, it is easier to survive in a grappling match when you are outclassed than it is in a striking match. So inevitably dominant strikers end up with more brutal or flashy finishes than dominant grapplers do. [/quote]

I misread that sentence in his post. Thought he was just talking about striking skill.

135

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
I dunno, I’m just used to the hard hard conditioning of stand up fighters, brutal conditioning of taking punishment for 12 rounds, blows to the head and body until everything is ruptured on the inside and they still have this impeccable spirit fighting on.
I can respect Brock tried but he just lacks that spirit and to me, I can’t take a fighter seriously if they lack that.

Cerrone certainly showed it tonight despite being schooled. That is inspiring and respectable in this sport.

Mma has too many years left before fighters become as hardened as seasoned stand fighters. It’s only under 20 years old so it is understandable but the ones that will make the best progress are the stand up guys who can adapt amazing wrestling/bjj skills, not the other way around as hyped by fags like goldberg and rogan.[/quote]

This is a load of shit. The Nog bros, Shogun, Fedor, Cerrone, Condit, Frankie Edgar, the Diaz bros, Diego Sanchez, Chris Lytle, Mark Hominick, Urijah Faber, John Fitch, Rich Franklin, Anderson Silva, Chris Leben, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Rampage, Randy Couture, Cain Velasquez…That is a VERY abridged list of MMA fighters with just as much if not more guts and grit than anyone in combat sports. I could go on and on all day.

Yeah kickboxing and boxing have and will always have some badass dudes but the age of a sport has nothing to do with how tough someones mettle is, that comes from individual willpower/strength and life experiences. [/quote]
He’s sort of right. Striking is going to dominate MMA for awhile (at least at the higher levels). I don’t know, grappling might get better and there might be a shift back to grappling. Wrestling and BJJ were pretty dominate but you’re starting to see a lot better striking and more guys able to defend takedowns.

In general MMA has a lot of potential for growth and a lot of fighters today still make a lot of mistakes, a lot less than before, but still there is a lot of room to grow.

Humble may be ignorant of grappling and stuff, but if he’s training Dutch style Muay Thai he’s going to be pretty knowledgeable about striking.[/quote]

Im not debating stylistic dominance in MMA, he basically said MMA fighters arent as tough as pure strikers. Some are always gonna be tougher than others but there are a good deal of fucking tough MMA fighters.

I will admit that on the whole at a PROFESSIONAL level, kickboxers probably do typically endure more pain on a daily basis as they need to be conditioned to it.

Also, of all the great strikers out there who are currently dominant in MMA, (Anderson Silva, Overeem, JDS, Aldo, Machida) each one of those guys still has EXCEPTIONAL ground games. Without that, none of those guys would be where they are. I think a lot of the difference is when you get guys who are equally dominant in grappling like GSP, it is easier to survive in a grappling match when you are outclassed than it is in a striking match. So inevitably dominant strikers end up with more brutal or flashy finishes than dominant grapplers do. [/quote]

I took humble to mean “tough” in terms of being able to take body/leg shots. He is right. The high level strikers had to be able to take the shots to become high level. I know that he made allusions to it being about heart, and I agree with him. I also know that kind of “heart” is pain/situation specific. I have watched people who are used to getting drilled by stikes have mental breakdowns and lose their shit from wristlocks, and black belts in joint lock heavy systems like Aikido or Aikijutsu freak out from bloody noses. Pain always sucks, but new and unusual pain does a special kind of number on you.

The MMA guys have not proven to themselves that they are going to survive the agony from Reem’s liver shots. So I think we will see plenty of them crumple or panic, where the pro kickboxers would still keep their hands up and try to fight as they trained to. I don’t think it makes the kickboxer’s “tougher” men, just far better suited to that situation. On the flip side Reem is likely more vulnerable to submissions, and he has a bunch of losses at 205 that might indicate he loses his shit when he is on the bottom and someone is hitting him after several minutes of grappling.

Regards,

Robert A

136

[quote]Robert A wrote:
I was surprised he did not try to shoot for more takedowns against Overeem, but it was a good match up. Overeem’s K-1 win puts him at world class for kickboxing, but his MMA record going into last night was of being a 25-11 205’er who went undefeated by moving up in weight and fighting lackluster competition. Prior to last night his best win at heavyweight was Werdum, and his stand up did not look unbeatable in that fight. I am not sure destroying Buentillo, James Thompson, Tod Duffee and the rest is proof that he is not the same fighter who was beaten by Shogun and Diet Nog twice each. If you are as down on Lesnar as you seem, than might you argue he still has to prove himself as a top five MMA heavyweight?

My feeling about Overeem is that last night’s showing and his K-1 wins prove that anyone at heavyweight who stands in front of him is going to be in massive trouble. His Werdum fight makes me wonder if he can handle the threat of takedowns mixed with striking, something Lesnar did not try in his brief time against Reem, or a fighter who uses jabs and straights well. Werdum caught him a few times in their fight.

I think Cain may be a threat, because of his hands and ability to mix strikes with takedowns. JDS may be able to do well with his jab, but I would want to know if he has a ground game to threaten with. I think Carwin would be in serious trouble against Overeem. Even though Carwin has great power, Lesnar actually tries to jabe MORE than Carwin and I think trying to match power shots with Reem would make for a short night.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]
I pretty much agree with all of this. I think Overeem was injured during the Werdum fight. Something was bothering him in that fight. I doubt JDS will try to take Overeem down or be able to. I don’t think he has taken anyone down. Personally, I’d like to see Mir and Cain go at it. That would be an interesting fight.

I’m telling you guys. Unless something freakish happens early or JDS is injured, JDS is going to hit Overeem in the face with his hands more than Overeem will hit him with his. At least until one of them gets hurt.

137

I think much of Overeem’s struggles at LHW can be attributed to exactly what he and many others had stated; His conditioning just wasnt good enough after the weigh cut. Even when he was fighting at 205, Overeem could look like the best fighter in the world for the first few minutes of a fight, no matter who he was fighting, but he always seemed to fizzle as the fight wore on and his conditioning ran out. I dont see him “freaking out” if faced with adversity, the guy is as cool as they come in the ring.

138

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

He is a NATIONAL class wrestler. He was champ of a shallow division. His size and strength pretty much mean that he was very effective at using his wrestling, even if I think he was less technical than Coleman, Randleman, or Kerr in terms of wrestling skill.

He also displayed a very good gameplan from the top in shutting down Mir in their second fight.

My opinion of Brock was that he didn’t “deserve” the title shot, but he won the fight so I cannot say too much bad about him.

He clearly beat Mir in their rematch. He managed to make it through Carwin, which was pretty impressive considering what Carwin had done at the time.

I was surprised he did not try to shoot for more takedowns against Overeem, but it was a good match up. Overeem’s K-1 win puts him at world class for kickboxing, but his MMA record going into last night was of being a 25-11 205’er who went undefeated by moving up in weight and fighting lackluster competition. Prior to last night his best win at heavyweight was Werdum, and his stand up did not look unbeatable in that fight. I am not sure destroying Buentillo, James Thompson, Tod Duffee and the rest is proof that he is not the same fighter who was beaten by Shogun and Diet Nog twice each. If you are as down on Lesnar as you seem, than might you argue he still has to prove himself as a top five MMA heavyweight?

My feeling about Overeem is that last night’s showing and his K-1 wins prove that anyone at heavyweight who stands in front of him is going to be in massive trouble. His Werdum fight makes me wonder if he can handle the threat of takedowns mixed with striking, something Lesnar did not try in his brief time against Reem, or a fighter who uses jabs and straights well. Werdum caught him a few times in their fight.

I think Cain may be a threat, because of his hands and ability to mix strikes with takedowns. JDS may be able to do well with his jab, but I would want to know if he has a ground game to threaten with. I think Carwin would be in serious trouble against Overeem. Even though Carwin has great power, Lesnar actually tries to jabe MORE than Carwin and I think trying to match power shots with Reem would make for a short night.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

If Carwin traded power shots with Overeem Carwin would win. The guy throw’s one hit ko’s from either hand coming from literally any concievable angle. Overeem is a beast, but their power is on completely different levels. Carwin has the most 1 shot power in all of MMA. Not saying he’s the best striker [he isn’t] or best boxer [he isn’t], just that no one can sit there and trade with him. He connects flush, it’s over.

139

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

He is a NATIONAL class wrestler. He was champ of a shallow division. His size and strength pretty much mean that he was very effective at using his wrestling, even if I think he was less technical than Coleman, Randleman, or Kerr in terms of wrestling skill.

He also displayed a very good gameplan from the top in shutting down Mir in their second fight.

My opinion of Brock was that he didn’t “deserve” the title shot, but he won the fight so I cannot say too much bad about him.

He clearly beat Mir in their rematch. He managed to make it through Carwin, which was pretty impressive considering what Carwin had done at the time.

I was surprised he did not try to shoot for more takedowns against Overeem, but it was a good match up. Overeem’s K-1 win puts him at world class for kickboxing, but his MMA record going into last night was of being a 25-11 205’er who went undefeated by moving up in weight and fighting lackluster competition. Prior to last night his best win at heavyweight was Werdum, and his stand up did not look unbeatable in that fight. I am not sure destroying Buentillo, James Thompson, Tod Duffee and the rest is proof that he is not the same fighter who was beaten by Shogun and Diet Nog twice each. If you are as down on Lesnar as you seem, than might you argue he still has to prove himself as a top five MMA heavyweight?

My feeling about Overeem is that last night’s showing and his K-1 wins prove that anyone at heavyweight who stands in front of him is going to be in massive trouble. His Werdum fight makes me wonder if he can handle the threat of takedowns mixed with striking, something Lesnar did not try in his brief time against Reem, or a fighter who uses jabs and straights well. Werdum caught him a few times in their fight.

I think Cain may be a threat, because of his hands and ability to mix strikes with takedowns. JDS may be able to do well with his jab, but I would want to know if he has a ground game to threaten with. I think Carwin would be in serious trouble against Overeem. Even though Carwin has great power, Lesnar actually tries to jabe MORE than Carwin and I think trying to match power shots with Reem would make for a short night.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

If Carwin traded power shots with Overeem Carwin would win. The guy throw’s one hit ko’s from either hand coming from literally any concievable angle. Overeem is a beast, but their power is on completely different levels. Carwin has the most 1 shot power in all of MMA. Not saying he’s the best striker [he isn’t] or best boxer [he isn’t], just that no one can sit there and trade with him. He connects flush, it’s over. [/quote]You can’t judge someone’s punching power based on watching them fight. I don’t know what makes you think Carwin hits harder than Overeem. There is no way to tell. A lot of punching power comes from really good technique. Also Carwin hit JDS clean on the chin with a hook in their fight. That didn’t put JDS down or really show that it hurt him.

140

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Saying that Lesnar “has a couple years experience” is not necessarily true. The guy was a world class wrestler, which translates pretty well to MMA.

Just sayin’.[/quote]

Bro, you’re usually well versed but this is just american hype machine. He’s not that world class a wrestler… bull rushes dont make you a great wrestler. 265 pounts helps

[/quote]

He is a NATIONAL class wrestler. He was champ of a shallow division. His size and strength pretty much mean that he was very effective at using his wrestling, even if I think he was less technical than Coleman, Randleman, or Kerr in terms of wrestling skill.

He also displayed a very good gameplan from the top in shutting down Mir in their second fight.

My opinion of Brock was that he didn’t “deserve” the title shot, but he won the fight so I cannot say too much bad about him.

He clearly beat Mir in their rematch. He managed to make it through Carwin, which was pretty impressive considering what Carwin had done at the time.

I was surprised he did not try to shoot for more takedowns against Overeem, but it was a good match up. Overeem’s K-1 win puts him at world class for kickboxing, but his MMA record going into last night was of being a 25-11 205’er who went undefeated by moving up in weight and fighting lackluster competition. Prior to last night his best win at heavyweight was Werdum, and his stand up did not look unbeatable in that fight. I am not sure destroying Buentillo, James Thompson, Tod Duffee and the rest is proof that he is not the same fighter who was beaten by Shogun and Diet Nog twice each. If you are as down on Lesnar as you seem, than might you argue he still has to prove himself as a top five MMA heavyweight?

My feeling about Overeem is that last night’s showing and his K-1 wins prove that anyone at heavyweight who stands in front of him is going to be in massive trouble. His Werdum fight makes me wonder if he can handle the threat of takedowns mixed with striking, something Lesnar did not try in his brief time against Reem, or a fighter who uses jabs and straights well. Werdum caught him a few times in their fight.

I think Cain may be a threat, because of his hands and ability to mix strikes with takedowns. JDS may be able to do well with his jab, but I would want to know if he has a ground game to threaten with. I think Carwin would be in serious trouble against Overeem. Even though Carwin has great power, Lesnar actually tries to jabe MORE than Carwin and I think trying to match power shots with Reem would make for a short night.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

If Carwin traded power shots with Overeem Carwin would win. The guy throw’s one hit ko’s from either hand coming from literally any concievable angle. Overeem is a beast, but their power is on completely different levels. Carwin has the most 1 shot power in all of MMA. Not saying he’s the best striker [he isn’t] or best boxer [he isn’t], just that no one can sit there and trade with him. He connects flush, it’s over. [/quote]

Strongly disagree with this one. Both guys hit hard as fuck, i cant say definitively who hits harder, but if Carwin stands and bangs with Overeem, Carwin gets smashed, even worse than he did against JDS.

BTW, Carwin hit Lesnar with literally dozens upon dozens of power shots from top position with all his weight behind them, and couldnt put him away. Overeem would smash Carwin.