Lesnar vs Overeem

Training
41

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
NOT A DAMN THING THAT JUSTIFIES THE CHANGE IN HIS AVATAR! [/quote]

If I promise to buy the next Klitshko PPV will you change it back?

[/quote]

haha, I am actually looking for a new one as we speak!

as far as your comments of diverticulitis goes, you are right that some cases are mild, and we treat on an outpatient basis with clear liquid diet (gut rest) and oral antibiotics. this would be a mild case. I have sent elderly people home with abx and diet recommendations before.

a moderate to severe case would require hospitalization, IV antibiotics, and absolutely nothing by mouth to eat or drink, these patients get IV hydration for a few days as well.

big time severe cases require surgery, which along with all other kinds of gut surgery, has high risk for infections and other complications.

the fact he was hospitalized twice and had surgery once at such a young age tells me these were very serious cases, and i will stick to my guns, I doubt he is 100%, heck he may never be the athlete he once was after all of that.

42

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Mr_White wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Is it just me, or is anyone else here just not buying the hype that Brock he completely healthy. As a medical professional, I know how serious his intestinal issues are, and the fact that they are so bad he actually had to have surgery at such a young age for this(acute diverticulitis is fairly common, in 65-plus year olds) just seems BAD.

I have noticed since he got to the UFC, he has lost size and strength AND speed each time I have seen him in the Octagon. and like has been state about him ad-nauseum, one of Brock’s few advantages was his freakish size and speed.

I dunno, like I said, it might just be me, but I do not think this guy is 100% healthy and physically sound anymore. [/quote]

His health problems seem pretty strange… I wonder what caused them so young.

If he can’t keep healthy he shouldn’t be fighting in my opinion, it’s not like he needs the money… He’s pretty much done it all, what else has he got to prove?
[/quote]

From what i remember, i think he stated that it was from eating nothing but red meat and potatoes his whole life, that caused the diverticulitis.

And as WhiteFlash said, i dont think his slimming down is entirely because of his health issues, but he is training like an MMA fighter now, and naturally that is going to cause your body to recomp a bit when you’re a 280 lb monster. [/quote]

Well, Lesnar did compete at 285 in college wrestling, which is extremely intense training, so I don’t think it’s necessarily that he is training that much harder (or more often) than he was. It’s probably more due to his being forced to change his diet IMO. Someone brought up Carwin in an earlier post and he too has cut much of the protein from his diet and lost a significant amount of muscle mass as a result of it.[/quote]

I didnt say he was training more, he’s just training differently. MMA fighters and collegiate wrestlers do not put the same emphasis on strength and muscle development. Being brutally strong plays a bigger role in amateur wrestling than it does in MMA. [/quote]

hmm, ya, that makes sense. I agree.

43

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

I see little middle ground here, because they cancel each other out so much and are very good at what they can do.

[/quote]

I agree, and I think it is a toss up which way it goes. Like I said earlier, I think Overeem’s style of striking (stalking/plodding and throwing big shots) is not the best way to unravel Brock’s stand up game, however iffy it may be.

This:

may play into Brock’s double leg, and the UFC’s rules about knees to a downed opponent will protect Brock in the attempt.

Regards,

Robert A

44

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Gonna disagree on one thing. Fighters are born, not made and Lesnar is no born fighter. He’s a born bully. The easiest way to test a bullys heart is to pop him in the nose. When a fighter gets hit, he ducks his chin and fights back. When a bully gets tagged, he tucks his tail and runs.
[/quote]

So, just to dump a little fuel on the fire…Mike Tyson, fighter or bully?

Oh, and I am not in disagreement about how Brock handles getting hit in a literal sense. I suspect he did “battle adversity” in his NCAA career a bit, even if the heavies are a fairly shallow division.

Regards,

Robert A

45

[quote]Robert A wrote:

So, just to dump a little fuel on the fire…Mike Tyson, fighter or bully?

Robert A[/quote]

ouch.

46

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Gonna disagree on one thing. Fighters are born, not made and Lesnar is no born fighter. He’s a born bully. The easiest way to test a bullys heart is to pop him in the nose. When a fighter gets hit, he ducks his chin and fights back. When a bully gets tagged, he tucks his tail and runs.
[/quote]

So, just to dump a little fuel on the fire…Mike Tyson, fighter or bully?

Oh, and I am not in disagreement about how Brock handles getting hit in a literal sense. I suspect he did “battle adversity” in his NCAA career a bit, even if the heavies are a fairly shallow division.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Most definitely FIGHTER. Tyson had everything it took to be the absolute best, except for probably the most important thing: the right mind. Everybody used him for their own personal greed and I don’t think he ever truly believed in himself. D’Amato died, he signed with King, stopped training the way he should’ve and the rest is the story we know. I firmly believe that Tyson is saddest story in pro sports history, and if anyone ever truly cared about him he would’ve been the best there ever was.

47

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
the fact he was hospitalized twice and had surgery once at such a young age tells me these were very serious cases, and i will stick to my guns, I doubt he is 100%, heck he may never be the athlete he once was after all of that.
[/quote]

I had the same thought/doubt when I first heard that he was hospitalized with Diverticulitis.

48

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Gonna disagree on one thing. Fighters are born, not made and Lesnar is no born fighter. He’s a born bully. The easiest way to test a bullys heart is to pop him in the nose. When a fighter gets hit, he ducks his chin and fights back. When a bully gets tagged, he tucks his tail and runs.
[/quote]

So, just to dump a little fuel on the fire…Mike Tyson, fighter or bully?

Oh, and I am not in disagreement about how Brock handles getting hit in a literal sense. I suspect he did “battle adversity” in his NCAA career a bit, even if the heavies are a fairly shallow division.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Most definitely FIGHTER. Tyson had everything it took to be the absolute best, except for probably the most important thing: the right mind. Everybody used him for their own personal greed and I don’t think he ever truly believed in himself. D’Amato died, he signed with King, stopped training the way he should’ve and the rest is the story we know. I firmly believe that Tyson is saddest story in pro sports history, and if anyone ever truly cared about him he would’ve been the best there ever was.[/quote]

Well, Tyson also seemed to flounder when he was taken out of his element. His “A” game was perfect, but I am not sure if he ever developed a “B”. If he got out of his game plan he broke mentally. Douglas did it by covering, clinching, and backing him up. Holyfield did it by crashing, clinching, fouling, and landing shots in between. Lewis did it by making him eat jabs and breaking his timing. I like to think that if he would have stayed with Rooney he would have developed the ability to fight his way back, but he chose his fate.

Lesnar has/had great natural ability and plenty of early success, NCAA, WWE, NFL Europe offer, and deserved his victories over Couture and Carwin. On the other hand I have read that he will not allow sparring partners to go for his head in training, and this is allowed somehow. It seems like he is making choices not to fix his exposed weaknesses. As it stands, if he gets hit he breaks down mentally and covers up or flails around. Now, I am not arguing that Lesnar is/was ever at the top of the game and Tyson most clearly WAS the top of the game. I am just seeing a similar issue with both. I am content to call them both “Fighters”.

DERAIL
I also do not think Tyson could have been “The Best There Ever Was”, because he never showed any ability to think/change tactics in the fight. I think his style would have always been vulnerable to Joe Louis, Foreman, or Marciano. On the other hand I think he may have beat Ali, because his footwork and head movement would have brought even more pain than Frazier did. Fight/bloodbath I most would have liked to see: Tyson vs a prime(that means pre-title shot) Liston.
END DERAIL

Regards,

Robert A

49

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Well, Tyson also seemed to flounder when he was taken out of his element. His “A” game was perfect, but I am not sure if he ever developed a “B”. If he got out of his game plan he broke mentally. Douglas did it by covering, clinching, and backing him up. Holyfield did it by crashing, clinching, fouling, and landing shots in between. Lewis did it by making him eat jabs and breaking his timing. I like to think that if he would have stayed with Rooney he would have developed the ability to fight his way back, but he chose his fate.

DERAIL
I also do not think Tyson could have been “The Best There Ever Was”, because he never showed any ability to think/change tactics in the fight. I think his style would have always been vulnerable to Joe Louis, Foreman, or Marciano. On the other hand I think he may have beat Ali, because his footwork and head movement would have brought even more pain than Frazier did. Fight/bloodbath I most would have liked to see: Tyson vs a prime(that means pre-title shot) Liston.
END DERAIL

Regards,

Robert A
[/quote]Been watching Tyson’s fights recently. I’m up to 1988 around the time he started winning the titles. He seems to have started to get worse imo around this time. He was going to the body a lot less than he use to. He appeared to start slowing down a bit and not slipping or ducking as many punches. He was getting hit a bit more. I think it was the reason that some of his fights started going the distance around this time. He was so focused on punching people in the face and not mixing it up. He had a beautiful right to the body followed up by a right uppercut. Knocked a few guys out with that.

But Rooney was training Tyson around this time so I don’t know if he would of saved him. I’ve heard he wasn’t training as hard as he could have been, and I don’t know if it’s true or not but it looks like it. Also heard he was doing drugs. Don’t know what exactly happened but it definitely screwed him mentally.

50

damn the betting line is +120 Lesnar and -150 on Overem and then Cerrone is -300 and Diaz is + 230 hmmmm i dont want Diaz to win but that line seems a lil skewed anyone else feel the same ?

51

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Gonna disagree on one thing. Fighters are born, not made and Lesnar is no born fighter. He’s a born bully. The easiest way to test a bullys heart is to pop him in the nose. When a fighter gets hit, he ducks his chin and fights back. When a bully gets tagged, he tucks his tail and runs.
[/quote]

So, just to dump a little fuel on the fire…Mike Tyson, fighter or bully?

Oh, and I am not in disagreement about how Brock handles getting hit in a literal sense. I suspect he did “battle adversity” in his NCAA career a bit, even if the heavies are a fairly shallow division.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Most definitely FIGHTER. Tyson had everything it took to be the absolute best, except for probably the most important thing: the right mind. Everybody used him for their own personal greed and I don’t think he ever truly believed in himself. D’Amato died, he signed with King, stopped training the way he should’ve and the rest is the story we know. I firmly believe that Tyson is saddest story in pro sports history, and if anyone ever truly cared about him he would’ve been the best there ever was.[/quote]

Well, Tyson also seemed to flounder when he was taken out of his element. His “A” game was perfect, but I am not sure if he ever developed a “B”. If he got out of his game plan he broke mentally. Douglas did it by covering, clinching, and backing him up. Holyfield did it by crashing, clinching, fouling, and landing shots in between. Lewis did it by making him eat jabs and breaking his timing. I like to think that if he would have stayed with Rooney he would have developed the ability to fight his way back, but he chose his fate.

Lesnar has/had great natural ability and plenty of early success, NCAA, WWE, NFL Europe offer, and deserved his victories over Couture and Carwin. On the other hand I have read that he will not allow sparring partners to go for his head in training, and this is allowed somehow. It seems like he is making choices not to fix his exposed weaknesses. As it stands, if he gets hit he breaks down mentally and covers up or flails around. Now, I am not arguing that Lesnar is/was ever at the top of the game and Tyson most clearly WAS the top of the game. I am just seeing a similar issue with both. I am content to call them both “Fighters”.

DERAIL
I also do not think Tyson could have been “The Best There Ever Was”, because he never showed any ability to think/change tactics in the fight. I think his style would have always been vulnerable to Joe Louis, Foreman, or Marciano. On the other hand I think he may have beat Ali, because his footwork and head movement would have brought even more pain than Frazier did. Fight/bloodbath I most would have liked to see: Tyson vs a prime(that means pre-title shot) Liston.
END DERAIL

Regards,

Robert A
[/quote]

No offense to Douglas, but THE ONLY reason he won that fight is 'cause Tyson had pretty much stopped training leading up to the fight. D’Amato wouldn’t have let that happen, and Tyson wouldn’t have wanted to let him down. And, there has never been a combination of speed, power and tenacity in the ring like Tyson. I’m not saying the guy was invincible, but he got too much, too fast, lost his mentor and basically imploded for all the world to see. Under different, more favorable circumstances I 100% believe he would’ve been the best of all time. But, that’s not what happened and he is what he is.

52

Tyson’s old driver, pre-prison, wrote a book detailing his time with him (think it was called “Out of the ring” or something similar). Talks about Tyson’s escapades. Sneaking out of training camp and driving a Ferrari 100s of miles to fuck some chick, fucking models, etc. The guy also has some good stuff about Don King in there, and by good I mean he thinks Don tried to kill him and Don setup the Desiree Washington rape charge to hide his stealing from Mike. Lots of good stuff in there, and I only read the highglights.

Damn this is off topic, but whatev, heheh.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/lotierzo1308.php

Above link tries to list out the best fighters Tyson beat. Makes good points I guess, though I wasn’t following the sport at the time (primarily because I was 3). Holmes was a decade into his career, Spinks was a LHW. Ruddock wasn’t quite on that level.

53

WhiteFlash,

I should have wrote “Douglas ACCIDENTALLY did it by…”. Would not have happened with a healthy/trained Tyson. Still, he never showed the capacity to think/ change tactics during a fight. The counter argument is that he didn’t need to early in his career and by the time he did so many things were “broken” with his training/life that it wasn’t happening.

He was my first sports hero, and the fighter that made me love boxing.

Regards,

Robert A

Addendum: Is ZEB alive? We have a 3 page thread on Lesnar and he hasn’t checked in to sing his praises?

54

[quote]rundymc wrote:
Tyson’s old driver, pre-prison, wrote a book detailing his time with him (think it was called “Out of the ring” or something similar). Talks about Tyson’s escapades. Sneaking out of training camp and driving a Ferrari 100s of miles to fuck some chick, fucking models, etc. The guy also has some good stuff about Don King in there, and by good I mean he thinks Don tried to kill him and Don setup the Desiree Washington rape charge to hide his stealing from Mike. Lots of good stuff in there, and I only read the highglights.

Damn this is off topic, but whatev, heheh.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/lotierzo1308.php

Above link tries to list out the best fighters Tyson beat. Makes good points I guess, though I wasn’t following the sport at the time (primarily because I was 3). Holmes was a decade into his career, Spinks was a LHW. Ruddock wasn’t quite on that level.[/quote]

Good read, but I would point out that the author is dwelling quite a bit too much on the post prison Tyson’s losses to Hollyfield and Lewis. Lennox is chronically under rated, even though Hollyfield ducked him for years and Bowe threw a belt in the trash to avoid him. I love Hollyfield for how little shit he caught for being the dirtiest modern heavyweight to hold a title. Neither fought anything approaching the “best” Tyson.

It was his early performances that he is known for, not his return. His legend is not based on his 2 Hollyfield fights or his demolition at the hands of Lewis. It’s foundation is the memory of what he did to his first 37 opponents, and what that seemed to hold for his future.

I get what WhiteFlash is saying when he makes an “If Tyson held it together, THAN he would have been the greatest” statement. I do not agree, but I get it. The young, well trained Tyson was pure destructive intent made manifest in the ring. He was Jack Dempsey for the cable TV era, and more. The fact his potential was snuffed out by his own actions and the exploitation and neglect of others makes him a tragic figure in the proper sense of the word.

Regards,

Robert A

55

As for the people discussing how serious his diverticulitis was, as i recall his first bout resulted in a frantic 100 mph car ride to the nearest hospital with Brock near death. So sounds pretty fuckin bad to me.

56

meh, there isn’t a way on earth except by accident that Brock wins… no way.
Alistair has some of the best take down defence in MMA. Recently at the uber heavy weight he is at, how many times have you seen him taken down?

He sprawls like a fucken horse, he hit’s like a mack truck! A friend of mine fought Overeem and got Ko’d by him like it was nothing and he has one of the hardest chins around and taken punishment from all the heavies in Oz. I’ve been dropped by this guy too and his punches although no where near as refined are like cannonballs too.

Alistair is way too strong, he’ll rag doll Brock, smash his face at will, knee him on any take down attempt, stalk him like a Chicken awaiting a slaughter and will go on to do it to anyone in the UFC.

You’ll all see. Brock has jack on him… nada!

57

I think Overeem/Lesnar will look a lot like Overeem/Duffee. Diaz/Cerrone should be a barn burner, hoping Diaz will win.

58

[quote]Clandestine wrote:
I think Overeem/Lesnar will look a lot like Overeem/Duffee.[/quote]

Yeah wouldnt be surprised at all by this, Duffee isnt quite the wrestler Brock is, but Reem’s sprawl is mean and if they end up in the clinch i expect Brock to get mauled by knees.

59

[quote]humble wrote:
meh, there isn’t a way on earth except by accident that Brock wins… no way.
Alistair has some of the best take down defence in MMA. Recently at the uber heavy weight he is at, how many times have you seen him taken down?
[/quote]

How many 265 lb Division 1 National Champion wrestlers has he faced at his Uber heavy weight though? You can’t compare the takedowns of someone like Werdum or Todd Duffee to those of Brock’s, just like you couldn’t compare the takedowns of someone like Thales Leites or Demian Maia with those of Chael Sonnen. They might all be grapplers, but only Lesnar and Sonnen are world class wrestlers.

Overeem has yet to face any elite level wreslers in the HW division, let alone any who are actually bigger and stronger than him. So I don’t think you can fairly gauge how he’ll do TDD wise against Brock by how he’s done so far.

No way he rag dolls Brock (if Brock is healthy), let’s just be serious, unless maybe he hurts him first.

If Brock chooses to stand with him I agree Reem will smash his face and stalk him.

If Reem tries to knee Brock on his TD attempts, he had better hope that he lands it clean, because otherwise that’s just going to put him on one leg and make the TD easier to finish. I do agree though that Lesnar has left much to be desired in terms of setting up his TD’s (in comparison to someone like GSP, Edgar, Randy or Cruz) in the past, so he could get caught and KO’d with a knee.

60

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
meh, there isn’t a way on earth except by accident that Brock wins… no way.
Alistair has some of the best take down defence in MMA. Recently at the uber heavy weight he is at, how many times have you seen him taken down?
[/quote]

How many 265 lb Division 1 National Champion wrestlers has he faced at his Uber heavy weight though? You can’t compare the takedowns of someone like Werdum or Todd Duffee to those of Brock’s, just like you couldn’t compare the takedowns of someone like Thales Leites or Demian Maia with those of Chael Sonnen. They might all be grapplers, but only Lesnar and Sonnen are world class wrestlers.

Overeem has yet to face any elite level wreslers in the HW division, let alone any who are actually bigger and stronger than him. So I don’t think you can fairly gauge how he’ll do TDD wise against Brock by how he’s done so far.

No way he rag dolls Brock (if Brock is healthy), let’s just be serious, unless maybe he hurts him first.

If Brock chooses to stand with him I agree Reem will smash his face and stalk him.

If Reem tries to knee Brock on his TD attempts, he had better hope that he lands it clean, because otherwise that’s just going to put him on one leg and make the TD easier to finish. I do agree though that Lesnar has left much to be desired in terms of setting up his TD’s (in comparison to someone like GSP, Edgar, Randy or Cruz) in the past, so he could get caught and KO’d with a knee. [/quote]

Based on that guys post, i assume he is a huge kickboxing fanboy and thus will not listen to reason when discussing MMA.