Lesnar vs Overeem

Training
21

I think a healthy Lesnar has more of a chance than it first appears. Lesnar’s repeated, and most glaring flaw is that he does not handle being hit in the face well.

Overeem threw single, crushing, shots en route to his K-1 title. Against Lesnar I think the answer is to throw jabs, and quick straights. Make contact with Lesnar and let him lose his shit before trying to crush him. I can not remember Overeem using jabs, or even set ups much in recent history. The style of striking Cain or JDS typically bring would work better against Lesnar’s most glaring weakness. I actually could see Reem getting caught a few times standing and being taken down frequently. I do not think he will fair better off his back than Mir did.

I think this is pretty close to a pick 'em fight, even though Overeem is a better fighter.

Regards,

Robert A

22

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:
This is pretty obvious. I think the advantage Overeem has is that Brock is going to have to start on the feet, and its completely up to him to get Reem down, and also hold him down, which Brock seems to have trouble doing against anyone with half decent wrestling. Brock also seems to get discouraged if he can’t hold a guy down (Velasquez anyone?). I dont see this being one of those fights where Brock takes Reem down once and instantly spells the beginning of the end.
[/quote]

You are right that the fight will start standing, but I don’t think that Brock is going to have the same trouble keeping Reem down that he did keeping Velasquez down. Cain is an all American wrestler and has an unbelievable gas tank for a HW. Overeem is no where near the caliber wrestler that Cain is and even if he’s able to fight back to his feet the first time, the longer the fight goes the greater the chance will be that Brock will be able to get him down and keep him there.

If Brock doesn’t get caught early and makes this fight a grinder (which he should) I see him beating Reem.

The thing is, It’s not like Cain (or Herring for that matter) really had to do anything other than muscle there way up off the ground when they were put there by brock. I understand the Herring fight was a while ago and Cain is an outstanding wrestler, but if Reem has been doing his research and working his scrambles, i think he should be able to get back up while taking little damage, at least in the first round.

And to reiterate, im not really stating that Brock doesn’t have the wrestling chops to handle Overeem on the ground – I believe with the right gameplan/mindset he has the chops to wreck anyone on the ground – But if Reem gets back up after the first couple TD’s or he manages to defend, Brock will lose his will quickly. I dont think he has the perseverance to keep grinding for the TD that guys like GSP and Velasquez have.

If he cant keep Overeem down within the first 2 minutes, and gets tagged with a couple shots for his efforts, i think Brock falls apart real quick, just like his title defeat.

EDIT: Also, i’m not meaning to come across as argumentative, if it was strictly black and white i’d say that we are all pretty much agreeing about the same points, however there are soooo many shades of gray to be discussed in this one lol, thats why this fight is so intriguing to me. Plus its gonna be awesome to see 2 250+ lb jacked up dudes beating eachother up.

23

After watching the Werdum fight, I have my doubts about Alistair winning. Seemed like the threat of the takedown made him real stiff on the feet. I think he could defend in the clinch, and probably beat Brock up there, but my guess from watching both their fights over the years is that if Brock gets the takedown, Reem’s fucked for the rest of the round.

Both guys haven’t looked good against good opposition, but I’m still thinking Brock loses. Don’t think either guy takes it against JDS though. Watching this for the freak factor, and because I’m holding out hope for one of them to have a break out performance, completely dominating the other.

24

Either way the Cerrone Vs Diaz fight is going to insane and the fight i will be most looking forward to seeing

25

[quote]rundymc wrote:
After watching the Werdum fight, I have my doubts about Alistair winning. Seemed like the threat of the takedown made him real stiff on the feet. I think he could defend in the clinch, and probably beat Brock up there, but my guess from watching both their fights over the years is that if Brock gets the takedown, Reem’s fucked for the rest of the round.

Both guys haven’t looked good against good opposition, but I’m still thinking Brock loses. Don’t think either guy takes it against JDS though. Watching this for the freak factor, and because I’m holding out hope for one of them to have a break out performance, completely dominating the other.
[/quote]

I agree, my biggest interest is that i am also hoping that regardless who wins, it will be a dominant and very impressive performance. I am hoping it will be Reem’s breakout performance though, as i believe that if he destroys Lesnar, he will have the greatest potential to become champ. If Lesnar wins it would be impressive, but stylistically i just cant see him beating Velasquez or JDS anytime soon, unless he makes some big improvements.

26

It’s going to be Cain-Lesnar all over again, except it will probably end with knee strikes in place of the punches.

I’m pretty sure I’ve expressed this before, but Lesnar isn’t going to have much a future unless he fixes his terrible standup and adverse reaction to being punched in the face (read: freaking out and running). With MMA’s popularity ever growing and paydays getting bigger, the HW division isn’t going to be that division where there are a few talented guys and a large amount of chumps for much longer, and Lesnar is not just going to be able to rely on “big strong dude with good wrestling”.

27

It’s simple Overoid will destroy him! Technically better striker … By a long way! Better groundwork and he has the size to stop lesnar just laying on him for 3 rounds and hoping Dana White will keep gifting him main event fights! White used Brock to steal WWE fans, its time to stop giving him fights now though!

28

I’d put my money on Overeem.

His conditioning has been better than Lesnar’s, and he’s good at popping back up when he’s taken down.

I’d be surprised if he didn’t go down once, but I think he can survive it and pop back up, especially early on.

The Lesnar hype-machine might give me a little pause: how sick was he really? How off his game was he really the last couple of fights?

His camp would have us believe we haven’t seen him anywhere close to 100%… I’m skeptical, but willing to believe it’s possible he now has much better cardio and a much higher pain tolerance.

29

Is it just me, or is anyone else here just not buying the hype that Brock he completely healthy. As a medical professional, I know how serious his intestinal issues are, and the fact that they are so bad he actually had to have surgery at such a young age for this(acute diverticulitis is fairly common, in 65-plus year olds) just seems BAD.

I have noticed since he got to the UFC, he has lost size and strength AND speed each time I have seen him in the Octagon. and like has been state about him ad-nauseum, one of Brock’s few advantages was his freakish size and speed.

I dunno, like I said, it might just be me, but I do not think this guy is 100% healthy and physically sound anymore.

30

I admit: I ate the hype-dick - I’m pumped for this fight

Thing is: the fight will be total bollox.
Ugly and rather short.

If Lesnar can take it to the ground, get position and pound even a bit, he’s gonna win.
If Ubereem can connect early and/or avoid, sprawl, shrimp away successfully, he’ll brutalize Lesnar.

I see little middle ground here, because they cancel each other out so much and are very good at what they can do.

31

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Is it just me, or is anyone else here just not buying the hype that Brock he completely healthy. As a medical professional, I know how serious his intestinal issues are, and the fact that they are so bad he actually had to have surgery at such a young age for this(acute diverticulitis is fairly common, in 65-plus year olds) just seems BAD.

I have noticed since he got to the UFC, he has lost size and strength AND speed each time I have seen him in the Octagon. and like has been state about him ad-nauseum, one of Brock’s few advantages was his freakish size and speed.

I dunno, like I said, it might just be me, but I do not think this guy is 100% healthy and physically sound anymore. [/quote]

His health problems seem pretty strange… I wonder what caused them so young.

If he can’t keep healthy he shouldn’t be fighting in my opinion, it’s not like he needs the money… He’s pretty much done it all, what else has he got to prove?

32

that is the question. usually when I see patients with intestinal issues like him at such a young age, it is part of a bigger problem, ie the diverticulitis is just one part of a milieu of symptoms that are indicitive of a more systemic autoimmune type syndromes.

often these patients also have IBS, Chrons, Celiac disease, ulcerative colitis, or any combination of these.

33

Yeah, Lesnar’s illness is another huge question in this fight. My mother had acute Diverticulitis a few years back, had to have surgery to correct it (and a second surgery because the first one didn’t work) and has never been the same since. I personally find it hard to believe that if Brock’s condition was anywhere as serious as my mother’s that he could be back to fighting shape in this short of time. I don’t know the details of Brock’s surgery though or how serious his infection was, nor am I a physician who regularly works with intestinal issues, so perhaps I’m wrong.

If he isn’t completely healthy though, then I think his chances of beating Alistair are slim at beast.

34

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Is it just me, or is anyone else here just not buying the hype that Brock he completely healthy. As a medical professional, I know how serious his intestinal issues are, and the fact that they are so bad he actually had to have surgery at such a young age for this(acute diverticulitis is fairly common, in 65-plus year olds) just seems BAD.

I have noticed since he got to the UFC, he has lost size and strength AND speed each time I have seen him in the Octagon. and like has been state about him ad-nauseum, one of Brock’s few advantages was his freakish size and speed.

I dunno, like I said, it might just be me, but I do not think this guy is 100% healthy and physically sound anymore. [/quote]

Not a medical professional so take this for what it is- think Lesnar’s loss of size and strength has more to do with his current training than with anything else. Same with Shane Carwin. Spend less time in the weightroom, eat less and more time in the ring/on the mat and you’ll look a little smaller/softer (not to mention aas usage, though not sure exactly where that falls in this equation). Not sure about the speed thing. Don’t know if that’s him losing it, the comp closing the athletic gap or something else.

35

[quote]Mr_White wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Is it just me, or is anyone else here just not buying the hype that Brock he completely healthy. As a medical professional, I know how serious his intestinal issues are, and the fact that they are so bad he actually had to have surgery at such a young age for this(acute diverticulitis is fairly common, in 65-plus year olds) just seems BAD.

I have noticed since he got to the UFC, he has lost size and strength AND speed each time I have seen him in the Octagon. and like has been state about him ad-nauseum, one of Brock’s few advantages was his freakish size and speed.

I dunno, like I said, it might just be me, but I do not think this guy is 100% healthy and physically sound anymore. [/quote]

His health problems seem pretty strange… I wonder what caused them so young.

If he can’t keep healthy he shouldn’t be fighting in my opinion, it’s not like he needs the money… He’s pretty much done it all, what else has he got to prove?
[/quote]

From what i remember, i think he stated that it was from eating nothing but red meat and potatoes his whole life, that caused the diverticulitis.

And as WhiteFlash said, i dont think his slimming down is entirely because of his health issues, but he is training like an MMA fighter now, and naturally that is going to cause your body to recomp a bit when you’re a 280 lb monster.

36

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Mr_White wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Is it just me, or is anyone else here just not buying the hype that Brock he completely healthy. As a medical professional, I know how serious his intestinal issues are, and the fact that they are so bad he actually had to have surgery at such a young age for this(acute diverticulitis is fairly common, in 65-plus year olds) just seems BAD.

I have noticed since he got to the UFC, he has lost size and strength AND speed each time I have seen him in the Octagon. and like has been state about him ad-nauseum, one of Brock’s few advantages was his freakish size and speed.

I dunno, like I said, it might just be me, but I do not think this guy is 100% healthy and physically sound anymore. [/quote]

His health problems seem pretty strange… I wonder what caused them so young.

If he can’t keep healthy he shouldn’t be fighting in my opinion, it’s not like he needs the money… He’s pretty much done it all, what else has he got to prove?
[/quote]

From what i remember, i think he stated that it was from eating nothing but red meat and potatoes his whole life, that caused the diverticulitis.

And as WhiteFlash said, i dont think his slimming down is entirely because of his health issues, but he is training like an MMA fighter now, and naturally that is going to cause your body to recomp a bit when you’re a 280 lb monster. [/quote]

Well, Lesnar did compete at 285 in college wrestling, which is extremely intense training, so I don’t think it’s necessarily that he is training that much harder (or more often) than he was. It’s probably more due to his being forced to change his diet IMO. Someone brought up Carwin in an earlier post and he too has cut much of the protein from his diet and lost a significant amount of muscle mass as a result of it.

37

what Sentoguy said. Lesnar was much bigger and more muscular as a collegiate wrestler, and they spend just as much time on the mat doing sport training as MMA fighters I would guess.

but then again, like you said, the super-heavyweight limit was 285, not 265, so he naturally did not have to be as trim as he is now.

Audiogarden, yes, a diet high in protein and fat and low in fiber is a risk factor for diverticulitis, when you are over 60 years old. it just does not happen in young people, or let me say it is very rare. and usually it is a part of larger problem if one is having such intestinal issues at such a young age.

38

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Mr_White wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
Is it just me, or is anyone else here just not buying the hype that Brock he completely healthy. As a medical professional, I know how serious his intestinal issues are, and the fact that they are so bad he actually had to have surgery at such a young age for this(acute diverticulitis is fairly common, in 65-plus year olds) just seems BAD.

I have noticed since he got to the UFC, he has lost size and strength AND speed each time I have seen him in the Octagon. and like has been state about him ad-nauseum, one of Brock’s few advantages was his freakish size and speed.

I dunno, like I said, it might just be me, but I do not think this guy is 100% healthy and physically sound anymore. [/quote]

His health problems seem pretty strange… I wonder what caused them so young.

If he can’t keep healthy he shouldn’t be fighting in my opinion, it’s not like he needs the money… He’s pretty much done it all, what else has he got to prove?
[/quote]

From what i remember, i think he stated that it was from eating nothing but red meat and potatoes his whole life, that caused the diverticulitis.

And as WhiteFlash said, i dont think his slimming down is entirely because of his health issues, but he is training like an MMA fighter now, and naturally that is going to cause your body to recomp a bit when you’re a 280 lb monster. [/quote]

Well, Lesnar did compete at 285 in college wrestling, which is extremely intense training, so I don’t think it’s necessarily that he is training that much harder (or more often) than he was. It’s probably more due to his being forced to change his diet IMO. Someone brought up Carwin in an earlier post and he too has cut much of the protein from his diet and lost a significant amount of muscle mass as a result of it.[/quote]

I didnt say he was training more, he’s just training differently. MMA fighters and collegiate wrestlers do not put the same emphasis on strength and muscle development. Being brutally strong plays a bigger role in amateur wrestling than it does in MMA.

39

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
NOT A DAMN THING THAT JUSTIFIES THE CHANGE IN HIS AVATAR! [/quote]

If I promise to buy the next Klitshko PPV will you change it back?

Now, RE: His early onset diverticulitis.

Not to level accusations, but my first though was GH use may have had some hand in it.

I am surprised by his “recovery”, but I do not know how extreme his issues actually were. It could have been a reletively “mild” case and a c. diff. infection from his hospital stays/post op care, or he could have been:

In any case Lesnar has shown an unwillingness or inability to learn to deal with getting hit in the face, and that in my mind is his greatest fault.

Hope everyone had a great Christmas.

Regards,

Robert A

40

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
NOT A DAMN THING THAT JUSTIFIES THE CHANGE IN HIS AVATAR! [/quote]

If I promise to buy the next Klitshko PPV will you change it back?

Now, RE: His early onset diverticulitis.

Not to level accusations, but my first though was GH use may have had some hand in it.

I am surprised by his “recovery”, but I do not know how extreme his issues actually were. It could have been a reletively “mild” case and a c. diff. infection from his hospital stays/post op care, or he could have been:

In any case Lesnar has shown an unwillingness or inability to learn to deal with getting hit in the face, and that in my mind is his greatest fault.

Hope everyone had a great Christmas.

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

Gonna disagree on one thing. Fighters are born, not made and Lesnar is no born fighter. He’s a born bully. The easiest way to test a bullys heart is to pop him in the nose. When a fighter gets hit, he ducks his chin and fights back. When a bully gets tagged, he tucks his tail and runs.