Lesnar vs Carwin UFC 106

Training
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[quote]ALKoHoLiK wrote:
John S. wrote:
Mir and Couture have shown themselves to be top level competition.

Yes, they have shown in the past they are great competitors… However Couture, took the belt from Tim Sylvia in a 5 round decision…Tim in turn fought against Fedor and was demolished in what .36 seconds of the first round?

Then you have Mir. Who fought Tank Abbott for his introduction fight (Tank Abbott, was good back in 92’)… beat a few people, then loses to Verna? Then he beats Brock by a BS call from Steve M. which gives Brock his leg,… then he beats a washed up Nog?

And Dana shouldn’t do that because unlike when Chuck went to Pride the UFC is top dog now. If you refuse to go to the top competition then you deserve to get that rank taken away from you if someone is beating top level competition.

Right now the UFC even contends that Fedor is top dog. That is why they are trying (and at the press conference with Brock apologizing said they were going to make that fight happen.)

Also, different organizations can have #1 fighters within there organization. It’s the fans that are ranking Fedor numero uno, not just the UFC.
[/quote]

The UFC wants to bring Fedor in because the fans want him there. Dana doesn’t consider him the best, while I say he still deserves to hold that for right now because of his past achievements if Brock beats Carwin then I feel Brock will be number 1. Oh and if Nog is washed up then what credible fighter has Fedor beaten in the past 4 years?

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[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Not to take away from the thread and because it’s relevant to the tone of discussion:

Frank Mir vs. Cheick Kongo in talks for UFC 107:

[/quote]

This will be a great fight to judge where Frank Mir is at now.

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Fail brotard is fail

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[quote]Therizza wrote:
Fail brotard is fail[/quote]

Are you calling me a brotard?

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[quote]John S. wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Fail brotard is fail

Are you calling me a brotard?[/quote]

Don’t get miffed. I was just kidding jeeze.

My point is, let him defend the title a few more times, then reevaluate his #1 or GOAT status.

Plus, I like saying stuff like that. (fail troll is fail, fail newb is fail… etc)

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[quote]John S. wrote:
ALKoHoLiK wrote:
John S. wrote:
Where as Lesnar has now beat the only guy who TKO’d Nogueira, maybe Nogueira was in bad shape like I said on the 29th we will see what he still has in him. Lesnar also beat Couture, and he has shown himself to still be a dominate fighter.

So you’re going to compare Fedor… to an OLD Couture… Nog (who has lost to Fedor, twice and in better shape). Doesn’t even seem right IMHO.

Right now Fedor has the #1 spot, but by not fighting the top competition how can you justify holding it, especially when the guys that gave you your claim to fame are being beaten in the UFC.

He has the #1 spot because earned it. It’s not his fault that people can’t give into his terms to have him fight for a certain organization. If you want Fedor a lot of terms have to be met apparently.

I think the Lesnar v. Carwin fight is going to be a joke. Carwin really hasn’t fought anyone. Most of the people it seemed he fought have a losing record with very little experience. If Christian Wellisch would of beat Jake O’Brian then I would of said maybe a little better chance…however it seems like Carwins only claim to fame is Sherman Pendergarst and 11-14 isn’t saying much…

We shall see

Fedor has had problems with wrestlers in the past. And I fail to see how Brock couldn’t do the exact same thing to Fedor that he did to Mir. I also mentioned how Fedor has failed to fight anyone relevant with the possible exception of Nog in many years. Where as Brock has beaten top level competition very recently. The best have to fight the best to keep that position, You can’t keep it while fighting B level competition. You call it people not giving in to his demands, I call it ducking the competition.[/quote]

It’s posts like yours that make me cringe. Are you forgetting that Fedor was scheduled to fight Josh Barnett this month? Ducking the compettion?, how fucking stupid are you? It never ceases to amaze me how quick people are to discredit and disrespect the most dominant and most humble heavyweight ever.

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I’m betting that Brock Lesnar is going to be Mike Tyson to MMA. Meaning, no one will beat him for a long long time.

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[quote]Therizza wrote:
John S. wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Fail brotard is fail

Are you calling me a brotard?

Don’t get miffed. I was just kidding jeeze.

My point is, let him defend the title a few more times, then reevaluate his #1 or GOAT status.

Plus, I like saying stuff like that. (fail troll is fail, fail newb is fail… etc)[/quote]

I am not saying he is the greatest of all time. I have also said that Fedor is the number 1 ranked fighter right now. But if Brock wins its a different story. Believe it or not you can be the greatest of all time and not be #1 for your whole career. Know one can take away what he did in Pride,the Fedor of Pride was a fucking beast. That alone makes him an excellent candidate. But if Bock wins this then he would have beaten far better opponents then Fedor has fought in the past 4 years.

I would also like to add that while I do like Brock’s fights, and am a fan I also look at things realistically. a 230-240lb man vs a 285-295lb man. A great mixed martial artist vs a Great wrestler. Brocks mind and body is built to do one thing, Put you on your back and punch you in the face. I don’t see how Fedor stops his takedowns. Believe it or not I am actually a bigger fan of Fedor’s then I am Brocks.

edit*

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[quote]John S. wrote:
Therizza wrote:
John S. wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Fail brotard is fail

Are you calling me a brotard?

Don’t get miffed. I was just kidding jeeze.

My point is, let him defend the title a few more times, then reevaluate his #1 or GOAT status.

Plus, I like saying stuff like that. (fail troll is fail, fail newb is fail… etc)

I am not saying he is the greatest of all time. I have also said that Fedor is the number 1 ranked fighter right now. But if Brock wins its a different story. Believe it or not you can be the greatest of all time and not be #1 for your whole career. Know one can take away what he did in Pride,the Fedor of Pride was a fucking beast. That alone makes him an excellent candidate. But if Bock wins this then he would have beaten far better opponents then Fedor has fought in the past 4 years.

I would also like to add that while I do like Brock’s fights, and am a fan I also look at things realistically. a 230-240lb man vs a 285-295lb man. A great mixed martial artist vs a Great wrestler. Brocks mind and body is built to do one thing, Put you on your back and punch you in the face. I don’t see how Fedor stops his takedowns. Believe it or not I am actually a bigger fan of Fedor’s then I am Brocks.

edit*[/quote]

Valid point. Sometimes physical superiority beats technical skill. 6’3 280lbs physical specimen with the speed of a middle to light heavy weight, who is willing to train hard and do whatever to be the best.

Outside of submissions, its gonna take another freak of nature to beat Brock. Just my opinion.

Wol

Barret

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True points by both! I feel, albeit regretfully, that Fedor is the last vestige of a dead generation of fighters.

He is/was a HW who can and could fight at LHW easily. Like I have said before, I think there needs to be a HW AND Super HW division, eventually.

The gap, physically, between a natural 230 pounder and a 285 pounder is sometimes too much to bridge with skill. Fedor beat Ho Man Choi (sp?), but he’s not a physical specimen like the up and coming HWs in the UFC.

My point being, if the skill pool was deep enough, there could be a HW division (220) and SHW division (250-285). Fedor/CroCop/Arlovski/Randy and others would fit in there perfectly. Heavier guys (Carwin and Lesnar off the top of my head, possible the new guys in this season of TUF) would fit in perfectly in the SHW division.

Don’t you think the weight disparity within the HW division currently makes for some bad mismatches between smaller/larger opponents?

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For everyone espousing arguments for Lesnar’s number 1 status. Maybe if he wins his next 3 or 4 fights in dominate fashion. OR Fedor loses. Then just maybe, he could be considered the number 1 heavyweight right now. Still a long fucking way from even thinking of living down the road from Fedor’s status as the best fighter anyone has seen in the sport. The man is a living legend. Think Michel Jordan, Babe Ruth, or Tiger Woods.

*The fact that you havent seen him fight live only reinforces the fact that you started watching MMA when Forrest beat Bonnar.

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Carwin is listed at 6’4’’ 255…but I think Brock is bigger.

I’m coming off the fence on this one… Brock is FASTER, will do damage standing…and then will ground and pound a win.

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[quote]ALKoHoLiK wrote:
John S. wrote:
Overeem is the one fighter I would love to see come to the UFC, I think he could present quite a few problems to the fighters in the UFC.

Which one? Valentijn or Alistair

(I agree if you say Alistair)[/quote]

Why would anyone say Valentijn?

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[quote]ALKoHoLiK wrote:
John S. wrote:
Where as Lesnar has now beat the only guy who TKO’d Nogueira, maybe Nogueira was in bad shape like I said on the 29th we will see what he still has in him. Lesnar also beat Couture, and he has shown himself to still be a dominate fighter.

So you’re going to compare Fedor… to an OLD Couture… Nog (who has lost to Fedor, twice and in better shape). Doesn’t even seem right IMHO.

Right now Fedor has the #1 spot, but by not fighting the top competition how can you justify holding it, especially when the guys that gave you your claim to fame are being beaten in the UFC.

He has the #1 spot because earned it. It’s not his fault that people can’t give into his terms to have him fight for a certain organization. If you want Fedor a lot of terms have to be met apparently.

I think the Lesnar v. Carwin fight is going to be a joke. Carwin really hasn’t fought anyone. Most of the people it seemed he fought have a losing record with very little experience. If Christian Wellisch would of beat Jake O’Brian then I would of said maybe a little better chance…however it seems like Carwins only claim to fame is Sherman Pendergarst and 11-14 isn’t saying much…

We shall see
[/quote]

What about Gonzaga? How about looking at the skills they each posses and how they match up? Looking at records tells us little. If records were the be all and end all of picking fights, nobody would ever win their first fight unless fighting another guy who handn’t fought before. If we were just going by experience or records we wouldn’t even see guys like Brock, Carwin, Velasquez, or Dos Santos fight big fights. I guess we could just keep watching Randy, Nog, Cro Cop, and Herring go at it for the title. No thanks.

Who they fight is important, but only in how they perform against that level of competition. I look at Carwin and recognize that he couldn’t fought much better than he did against the competition he has faced. He is also a big strong wrestler with better striking and more fights than Lesnar. It would be interesting to add up the time both have spent in fights.

In 11 fights Carwin has been in the ring/cage 12:22
In 5 fights Lesnar has been in the ring/cage 32:34

This is interesting. While Carwin has been training MMA longer, Brock has been in the cage longer with better apponents. I guess one could argue Brock has more experience. Carwin still has more experience knocking people silly.

People don’t lose fights becuase of their records. They lose becuase their skills don’t match up favorably with their apponent. If you are going to say a fight is joke, please point to more than a guys record.

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[quote]ALKoHoLiK wrote:
John S. wrote:
Mir and Couture have shown themselves to be top level competition.

Yes, they have shown in the past they are great competitors… However Couture, took the belt from Tim Sylvia in a 5 round decision…Tim in turn fought against Fedor and was demolished in what .36 seconds of the first round?
[/quote]
Dude, get off wikipedia and watch the actual fights. Different styles make for different fights. If fighter A beats figher B in 40 seconds and fighter C beats fighter B in 35 sec, fighter C is not better than fighter A. By that logic Rogers is better than Fedor. Anyone think that’s silly?

How about Chuck Lidell being better than Fedor?

Again, go watch a fight and assess the skills of the fighters you are talking about.

You keep comparing records and who beat who faster. I’ll actually watch the fights and observe skills.

Not true. They contend that fans want to see the fight and that’s why they were going to make it happen.

The same fans that boo everytime a fight hits the mat? The same fans that instantly boo two current champions? The same fans that start fights in the stands?

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[quote]John S. wrote:
If I remember correctly when Brock vs Randy happened Randy brought in Carwin to train with him. If I am remembering right I believe Randy was schooling Carwin in the video I watched. I will try and find it.

Edit*

I was wrong it wasn’t a video I saw it was this article.
[/quote]

Carwin has since stated that those allegations are false. He never trained with Randy. Supposedly Randy had contacted him about training together, but it never happened.

From Carwin’s blog:

“Earlier reports had me training with Couture while he was training for Brock, again a total BS rumor,” confirmed Carwin. “I have never trained with Randy Couture, Randy called me and invited me a while back but it didnâ??t end up working out.”

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[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Not to take away from the thread and because it’s relevant to the tone of discussion:

Frank Mir vs. Cheick Kongo in talks for UFC 107:
http://mmamania.com/2009/07/24/ufc-107-frank-mir-in-talks-to-face-cheick-kongo-on-dec-12/[/quote]

I think we have discussed this one before. Good fight. Frank isn’t going to double-leg Kongo like Cain did, so I see this one staying standing for a bit. I am excited to see how much Franks strikiing has come along. From what little we have seen, I am guessing it’s come along quite nicely.

Mir probably needs to get it to the mat eventually, so Kongo should be working on avoiding sweeps and trips from the clinch. For some reason I am thinking Kongo has some Greco experience?

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[quote]Barachiel wrote:
However, in my opinion. If Shane doesn’t land a solid shot with those XXXXL fists of his. Brock’s going to grind him out on the ground.[/quote]

Ahem, you mean those XXXXXL fists. :smiley:

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[quote]slimjim wrote:
For everyone espousing arguments for Lesnar’s number 1 status. Maybe if he wins his next 3 or 4 fights in dominate fashion. OR Fedor loses. Then just maybe, he could be considered the number 1 heavyweight right now. Still a long fucking way from even thinking of living down the road from Fedor’s status as the best fighter anyone has seen in the sport. The man is a living legend. Think Michel Jordan, Babe Ruth, or Tiger Woods.

*The fact that you havent seen him fight live only reinforces the fact that you started watching MMA when Forrest beat Bonnar.[/quote]

Are you not paying attention? People are arguing rankings. Rankings have nothing to with what you did 3,4,5 years ago. That’s why Matt Hughs and Sakaraba are not number 1.

Most ranking bodies claim that there rankings are based on recent performances. This would mean the guy that beat higher ranked apponents has a higher ranking himself. Often it doesn’t work out that way and ends up being arbitrary anyway. There are a couple that are really bad.

Fedor can’t go to king of cage and remain the CURRENT number 1 ranked HW regardless of what he did in Pride. Can he at Strikeforce? Mabye. I don’t really care anymore. I just want to see him fight other great fighters. People could rank Fedor and brock at 9 and 10 and it wouldn’t change my view of them. Unfortunately, it would change how many view them.

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[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Not to take away from the thread and because it’s relevant to the tone of discussion:

Frank Mir vs. Cheick Kongo in talks for UFC 107:
UFC 107: Frank Mir in talks to face Cheick Kongo on Dec. 12 - MMAmania.com [/quote]

^^Great news!^^

Man. The UFC didn’t sign Fedor, but they sure are making some great HW fights happen!

Now, if A. Silva could fight some bangers like Cro-cop/Belfort or wrestlers/G-n-P like
Couture/Coleman, I wouldn’t know what to do w/ myself!

Great time to be a MMA fan!

Cheers to everyone,