[quote]Vagina Whisperer wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
[/quote]
Ha, nice.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Not trolling, but not too serious either.
Some of you just can’t deal with: “I didn’t really get much out of the video”
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
I think you just don’t really get what MMC is in this context, but think you do. And basically you, a beginner, are saying “well, duh!” to what Kai Greene is saying, when the competing bodybuilder in the video is saying he was learning a lot from it.
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Not trolling, but not too serious either.
Some of you just can’t deal with: “I didn’t really get much out of the video”
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
I think you just don’t really get what MMC is in this context, but think you do. And basically you, a beginner, are saying “well, duh!” to what Kai Greene is saying, when the competing bodybuilder in the video is saying he was learning a lot from it.[/quote]
Quite possible.
Out of curiosity, what do you think that -I- think that MMC means in this context?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Not trolling, but not too serious either.
Some of you just can’t deal with: “I didn’t really get much out of the video”
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
I think you just don’t really get what MMC is in this context, but think you do. And basically you, a beginner, are saying “well, duh!” to what Kai Greene is saying, when the competing bodybuilder in the video is saying he was learning a lot from it.[/quote]
Quite possible.
Out of curiosity, what do you think that -I- think that MMC means in this context?[/quote]
After that piano comment it’s hard to say, but something about being able to use your muscles to perform complex movements efficiently?
Ok ok we get it…The guy in the video who won a BB contest said he learned alot, our own Pro card holder Stu said there’s stuff that can be learned from such videos, but you…the guy working out 4 months and not eating and having nothing to show for it…found absolutely nothing valuable to use because you’ve got total MMC down hardcore! Please for your own dignity, just stop! You go more “full retard” with every post. Couldn’t just say aaaaaay vid was ok? Or just remained silent if you got nothing out of it.
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Not trolling, but not too serious either.
Some of you just can’t deal with: “I didn’t really get much out of the video”
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
I think you just don’t really get what MMC is in this context, but think you do. And basically you, a beginner, are saying “well, duh!” to what Kai Greene is saying, when the competing bodybuilder in the video is saying he was learning a lot from it.[/quote]
Quite possible.
Out of curiosity, what do you think that -I- think that MMC means in this context?[/quote]
After that piano comment it’s hard to say, but something about being able to use your muscles to perform complex movements efficiently?[/quote]
My understanding is having the awareness, the feedback mechanism, to precisely target and control an intended muscle group. Not just to “feel” it in your chest, but to have the mental control to actually ensure that this particular area of your chest is contracting with the speed and force you intend. And in the case of, say, a particular lift… knowing how to adjust your leverages so that that area of your muscle is being targeted and being used as the primary mover of the weight.
And really it’s what’s necessary to actually tune particular exercises to work best for you. Because while a particular technique (like, say, guillotine presses) may in general target the upper chest for most people, unless they also have the ability to control tension and relaxation in neighboring muscle groups, they’re not going to reap the most out of that lift as possible. Sure, they might “accidentally” get the right stimulation, but MMC enables you to focus that stimulation exactly where you intend, and helps the brain make subtle adjustments so the tension (and relaxation) is exactly where it should be.
There are form cues like pulling with your elbows that help most people target their lats… but MMC is that conceptual leap where you’re actually able to use the lats – and only the lats – to move the weight. You don’t need to be told to “pull with your elbows”, since you just sort of figure it out as you focus on hitting that muscle properly.
Explaining by example is a crappy way to explain things, but that’s my understanding.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Not trolling, but not too serious either.
Some of you just can’t deal with: “I didn’t really get much out of the video”
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
I think you just don’t really get what MMC is in this context, but think you do. And basically you, a beginner, are saying “well, duh!” to what Kai Greene is saying, when the competing bodybuilder in the video is saying he was learning a lot from it.[/quote]
Quite possible.
Out of curiosity, what do you think that -I- think that MMC means in this context?[/quote]
After that piano comment it’s hard to say, but something about being able to use your muscles to perform complex movements efficiently?[/quote]
My understanding is having the awareness, the feedback mechanism, to precisely target and control an intended muscle group. Not just to “feel” it in your chest, but to have the mental control to actually ensure that this particular area of your chest is contracting with the speed and force you intend. And in the case of, say, a particular lift… knowing how to adjust your leverages so that that area of your muscle is being targeted and being used as the primary mover of the weight.
And really it’s what’s necessary to actually tune particular exercises to work best for you. Because while a particular technique (like, say, guillotine presses) may in general target the upper chest for most people, unless they also have the ability to control tension and relaxation in neighboring muscle groups, they’re not going to reap the most out of that lift as possible. Sure, they might “accidentally” get the right stimulation, but MMC enables you to focus that stimulation exactly where you intend, and helps the brain make subtle adjustments so the tension (and relaxation) is exactly where it should be.
There are form cues like pulling with your elbows that help most people target their lats… but MMC is that conceptual leap where you’re actually able to use the lats – and only the lats – to move the weight.
Explaining by example is a crappy way to explain things, but that’s my understanding.
[/quote]
So why is it that you think classical piano training makes you able to do this? And why the comment along the lines of “couldn’t he have just said ‘develop mind-muscle connection’”?
You can’t overemphasize the MMC. If you’re not trying to improve it, you’re regressing.
I have good back/shoulder development all because I’ve put so much focus on the MMC with those parts. My deadlift is absolute shit but I have a far larger back than the people at my gym who can outlift me.
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Not trolling, but not too serious either.
Some of you just can’t deal with: “I didn’t really get much out of the video”
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
I think you just don’t really get what MMC is in this context, but think you do. And basically you, a beginner, are saying “well, duh!” to what Kai Greene is saying, when the competing bodybuilder in the video is saying he was learning a lot from it.[/quote]
Quite possible.
Out of curiosity, what do you think that -I- think that MMC means in this context?[/quote]
After that piano comment it’s hard to say, but something about being able to use your muscles to perform complex movements efficiently?[/quote]
My understanding is having the awareness, the feedback mechanism, to precisely target and control an intended muscle group. Not just to “feel” it in your chest, but to have the mental control to actually ensure that this particular area of your chest is contracting with the speed and force you intend. And in the case of, say, a particular lift… knowing how to adjust your leverages so that that area of your muscle is being targeted and being used as the primary mover of the weight.
And really it’s what’s necessary to actually tune particular exercises to work best for you. Because while a particular technique (like, say, guillotine presses) may in general target the upper chest for most people, unless they also have the ability to control tension and relaxation in neighboring muscle groups, they’re not going to reap the most out of that lift as possible. Sure, they might “accidentally” get the right stimulation, but MMC enables you to focus that stimulation exactly where you intend, and helps the brain make subtle adjustments so the tension (and relaxation) is exactly where it should be.
There are form cues like pulling with your elbows that help most people target their lats… but MMC is that conceptual leap where you’re actually able to use the lats – and only the lats – to move the weight.
Explaining by example is a crappy way to explain things, but that’s my understanding.
[/quote]
So why is it that you think classical piano training makes you able to do this? And why the comment along the lines of “couldn’t he have just said ‘develop mind-muscle connection’”?[/quote]
I think most people underestimate the degree of mental control required to actually play piano at anything beyond a beginner level. It requires a very precise level of control, knowing how to use gravity and rotational momentum to your advantage, and a lot of very very finely tuned feedback systems so that you can create the intended sound at a micro level.
And jumping from piano to piano, you need to very quickly recalibrate everything so that you still produce the same end results. No piano plays the same; the force and speed required to produce a particular sound varies significantly.
Even mechanically, the thumb, index finger, ring finger, and pinky with a natural application of force, will all produce wildly varying volumes. It requires a lot of control to produce the illusion of uniformity in the resulting sound across a lot of constantly changing factors, and naturally uneven strength curves.
So with the piano training, you learn how to pay attention to very very subtle things in order to produce a desired result. The degree of focus required to do that over time, and deal with days when things just don’t want to work, but figuring out how to do it anyway… that kind of attention to detail has a lot of carryover.
It’s really not just “wiggle your fingers”.
As far as “couldn’t he have just said ‘develop better mind-muscle connection’”, I actually feel that if you understand what MMC is, per how I described it, a lot of the techniques to achieve that sort of work themselves out. If you know what the result is (precise control over a target muscle, feeling it exactly where you want and how you want), you should use your attention and focus and ability to creatively experiment, to find ways to achieve that yourself.
But I could be overestimating people’s abilities to extrapolate from that statement. It sounds like I am.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I think most people underestimate the degree of mental control required to actually play piano at anything beyond a beginner level. It requires a very precise level of control, knowing how to use gravity and rotational momentum to your advantage, and a lot of very very finely tuned feedback systems so that you can create the intended sound at a micro level.
And jumping from piano to piano, you need to very quickly recalibrate everything so that you still produce the same end results. No piano plays the same; the force and speed required to produce a particular sound varies significantly.
Even mechanically, the thumb, index finger, ring finger, and pinky with a natural application of force, will all produce wildly varying volumes. It requires a lot of control to produce the illusion of uniformity in the resulting sound across a lot of constantly changing factors, and naturally uneven strength curves.
So with the piano training, you learn how to pay attention to very very subtle things in order to produce a desired result. The degree of focus required to do that over time, and deal with days when things just don’t want to work, but figuring out how to do it anyway… that kind of attention to detail has a lot of carryover.
It’s really not just “wiggle your fingers”.
[/quote]
I still think that’s completely different, as it’s more of a ‘control of your fingers’ rather than a ‘feeling’ and making sure you’re using the right muscles. Unless you play piano with specific attention to developing your finger muscles. There’s a lot of focus and attention to detail involved in being a nuclear physicist, but I don’t think that helps you use your lats when you do a lat pulldown either.
[quote]
As far as “couldn’t he have just said ‘develop better mind-muscle connection’”, I actually feel that if you understand what MMC is, per how I described it, a lot of the techniques to achieve that sort of work themselves out. If you know what the result is (precise control over a target muscle, feeling it exactly where you want and how you want), you should use your attention and focus and ability to creatively experiment, to find ways to achieve that yourself.
But I could be overestimating people’s abilities to extrapolate from that statement. It sounds like I am.[/quote]
Yes I think so. I think, as browndisaster said, it can’t be overemphasized, because most don’t really understand it/care to understand it/focus on it, and most don’t use their attention and focus and ability to find ways to achieve it. And having an expert, such as Kai, helping you find ways to achieve this would be very valuable.
All that aside – there’s really not much sense in going into the piano side of things beyond what I did. The focus there isn’t hypertrophy, but it is in precise muscular control of the finger muscles, along with gravity and rotational momentum. But again, really no need to discuss that further since few people actually have any idea what I’m talking about, and so it looks like gibberish.
What I’m more interested in is… would you say that my concept of MMC is, well, accurate? Or at least, close enough?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
All that aside – there’s really not much sense in going into the piano side of things beyond what I did. The focus there isn’t hypertrophy, but it is in precise muscular control of the finger muscles, along with gravity and rotational momentum. But again, really no need to discuss that further since few people actually have any idea what I’m talking about, and so it looks like gibberish.
What I’m more interested in is… would you say that my concept of MMC is, well, accurate? Or at least, close enough?[/quote]
Honestly yeah I think that’s quite a good written description of it. BUT, I think it’s one of those things that a good written description of it is not nearly as useful as getting to the gym and learning and practicing it. And again, having someone who is an expert in it helping you actually do it and making those subtle tweaks, rather than simply describing it to you online, would be very useful indeed.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
would you say that my concept of MMC is, well, accurate? Or at least, close enough?[/quote]
Yes, but does that mean you know everything about MMC? That you have it down?
You probably don’t know it, but that video taught you stuff. Off the top, it shows really developed guys needing to use really light weight when their goal is getting the MMC down (early in a training session or for the whole training session).
There’s so much learning that happens when you just see someone who’s the best at what they do doing their thing. For example, when I hit the bench earlier today I had the mental picture of Kai stopping the bar at various points in the movement and thinking about control at each point.
Also, on pullovers, I thought about the most muscular pose and flexing my chest throughout the top half of the motion and boom, the idea that the pullover can have the chest in an almost static contraction throughout the movement made sense.
There is so much progress to be made in all of our workouts. If you have the time to watch the best do theirs, rest assured, something can be gained from the experience.
except Kai was training explosively with heavy weights for most of his career
typical bodybuilder…train all out until they hit 35-40 then suddenly its all about control and feeling the muscle but how did they get there in the first place?
I am off to watch johnny jackson smash some real weight
Lorez, youre an idiot
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
I’ve heard tons of BB stress contraction but nobody does it as intense as Kai. Pretty amazing[/quote]
Dorian Yates.
[quote]TheGreatXavi wrote:
Lorez, youre an idiot
[/quote]
Meh
[quote]Vagina Whisperer wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I mean, it’s Kai, and it’s supposed to be revered, and anyone who doesn’t revere him should be shunned. At what point should I stop mocking that?[/quote]
[/quote]
I lol’d HARD
LoRez I think for your own sake you should just give up arguing your case, whatever that might be…?
If you keep training for a few years, and learn by experience, and make some decent gains, and develop the kind of mmc that everyone here is talking about that you have yet to understand and develop, I advise you not to revisit this thread due to risk of death from cringe-related causes
Piano and applying precise force and leverage to an object is more in common with a powerlifter. You are controlling the movement, not the muscle. MMC is controlling the muscle precisely and focusing less on the movement, almost ignoring the resultant movement of the object and the force exerted on it. The opposite of what I’d imagine a concert pianist does.